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U.S. explores sending Ukraine more advanced weapons after scuttling Polish jet deal

Rogue Valley

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U.S. explores sending Ukraine more advanced weapons after scuttling Polish jet deal

3.11.12
The Biden administration, under pressure to expand the arsenal of weapons that Ukraine has in its conflict with Russia, is working with European allies to expedite more sophisticated air-defense systems and other armaments into the war zone, U.S. officials said Friday. Discussions were ongoing ahead of Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin’s planned trip next week to meet with NATO allies in Brussels and Slovakia, which along with Poland and Romania has indicated a willingness to transfer military aid to its embattled neighbor. Slovakia also possesses the S-300 surface-to-air missile system, which is used to shoot down enemy aircraft and is familiar to the Ukrainians. The administration is facing backlash over its decision earlier this week to scuttle Poland’s proposal that would have sent a number of its MiG-29 fighter jets to Ukraine via a transfer “free of charge” to the United States.

On Friday, a bipartisan group of lawmakers in the United States sent a letter to President Biden asking him to transfer manned and unmanned aircraft to Ukraine, saying that “despite heroic and skilled resistance,” the Russians had achieved air superiority over the Ukrainians. Rep. Jason Crow (D-Colo.), a former Army Ranger who is among the signatories, said the administration was drawing a nonsensical distinction between acceptable weapons and those it considers potentially too escalatory. “I don’t believe there is a distinction between providing a MiG and providing a Javelin and a Stinger,” he said. “These are defensive systems; we are not providing offensive capabilities because Ukraine is not on the offense, all they’re doing is fighting for their survival and trying to maintain their democracy against a Vladimir Putin invasion.” Rep. Michael Waltz (R.-Fla.), who has served in Special Forces units and also signed the letter, said that transferring S-300 systems and components of them, such as radar, could be helpful.
The Ukrainians could benefit, too, from counter-battery radar systems, which scan for the originating locations of incoming artillery fire, and its equipment they’ve asked for before, Waltz said. “At a minimum, once the Russians know you have that, they won’t be able to just sit there and lob round after round after round,” Waltz said. “It degrades their ability to just sit there and pummel you. They have to move, obviously, because now you have the ability to counter-battery.”


The Ukraine military has 56 fighter jets left and is using them 5-10 hours per day. Without spare parts, they'll begin falling out of the sky due to maintanance issues.

After the Afghanistan evacuation fiasco-disaster, I hoped the Pentagon was done with shameful operations. Now comes its denial of the Polish MiGs.

Perhaps NATO should use Slovakia as a Ukraine resupply hub. It has both the standard EU railroad track gauge, and the slightly wider Ukraine railroad track gauge.
 

Chomsky

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U.S. explores sending Ukraine more advanced weapons after scuttling Polish jet deal




The Ukraine military has 56 fighter jets left and is using them 5-10 hours per day. Without spare parts, they'll begin falling out of the sky due to maintanance issues.

After the Afghanistan evacuation fiasco-disaster, I hoped the Pentagon was done with shameful operations. Now comes its denial of the Polish MiGs.

Perhaps NATO should use Slovakia as a Ukraine resupply hub. It has both the standard EU railroad track gauge, and the slightly wider Ukraine railroad track gauge.

I really wish Biden would grow a pair.

Unless he's doing all this stuff behind the scenes, but not admitting it publicly. Which is what I hope is happening.
 

oneworld2

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U.S. explores sending Ukraine more advanced weapons after scuttling Polish jet deal




The Ukraine military has 56 fighter jets left and is using them 5-10 hours per day. Without spare parts, they'll begin falling out of the sky due to maintanance issues.

After the Afghanistan evacuation fiasco-disaster, I hoped the Pentagon was done with shameful operations. Now comes its denial of the Polish MiGs.

Perhaps NATO should use Slovakia as a Ukraine resupply hub. It has both the standard EU railroad track gauge, and the slightly wider Ukraine railroad track gauge.

NATO, read the USA, should be " using" Poles and now Slovakians? Like they are using Ukrainians, you forgot to mention that.

Great to see such indifference to the concerns of those on the Russian/Ukraine border and the bobby big balls attitude from the safety of being out of range yourself
 

oneworld2

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I really wish Biden would grow a pair.

Unless he's doing all this stuff behind the scenes, but not admitting it publicly. Which is what I hope is happening.

I wish you jingoist Americans would mind your own business and stop shit stirring in Europe and everywhere else around the globe. So much for wishes.
 

maxparrish

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I really wish Biden would grow a pair.

Unless he's doing all this stuff behind the scenes, but not admitting it publicly. Which is what I hope is happening.

I am so tired of leaders that fear "fear itself" as a self-imposed crippling of their freedom of action. The mere fact that the Pentagon is "considering" larger anti-aircraft systems is a confession that they too were being held back, along with however many other weapon systems as yet not revealed.

This is ludicrous, we go into this war with a promise of assisting Ukraine to the max (other than combat) and are leaving it with desperate puppy dog whimpering. Every day that passes it seems we get more information on what else we won't do...as Ukraine is subjected to increasing preesure and even mercenaries brought in from as far as Africa.

Finally, I read that the administration is preparing another set of increased sanctions...which raises the question, why weren't all these sanctions imposed two weeks ago?
 

Chomsky

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I am so tired of leaders that fear "fear itself" as a self-imposed crippling of their freedom of action. The mere fact that the Pentagon is "considering" larger anti-aircraft systems is a confession that they too were being held back, along with however many other weapon systems as yet not revealed.

This is ludicrous, we go into this war with a promise of assisting Ukraine to the max (other than combat) and are leaving it with desperate puppy dog whimpering. Every day that passes it seems we get more information on what else we won't do...as Ukraine is subjected to increasing preesure and even mercenaries brought in from as far as Africa.

Finally, I read that the administration is preparing another set of increased sanctions...which raises the question, why weren't all these sanctions imposed two weeks ago?

My hope is that there's more going on behind the scenes.
 

maxparrish

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My hope is that there's more going on behind the scenes.
I too hope, but I know this has become an ego pushing match. The Pentagon is going to insist that the Ukrainians flying, and fighting don't know what they should and should not have, but the office chaired desk "generals" in Washington are "the experts" , the same morons who horribly miscalculated the military will and ability of both belligerents.

Send these seat warming "experts" to Ukraine to man air bases or carry a rifle, and these feckless babies would be wailing for planes, cruise missiles, and everything else in US inventory.
 

Chomsky

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I wish you jingoist Americans would mind your own business and stop shit stirring in Europe and everywhere else around the globe. So much for wishes.

You might re-consider your thoughts, and subsequent use of the term 'jingoist', in light of the words of Zelensky himself:


 

Chomsky

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I too hope, but I know this has become an ego pushing match. The Pentagon is going to insist that the Ukrainians flying, and fighting don't know what they should and should not have, but the office chaired desk "generals" in Washington are "the experts" , the same morons who horribly miscalculated the military will and ability of both belligerents.

Send these seat warming "experts" to Ukraine to man air bases or carry a rifle, and these feckless babies would be wailing for planes, cruise missiles, and everything else in US inventory.

I'm not going to beat on our brass and military advisers. I suspect we have among the best in the world.

I think this is coming down to Biden. He's either making overly cautious decisions, or he's not admitting all he's doing publicly. I hope it's the latter, but I'm thinking it's probably the former.
 

oneworld2

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You might re-consider your thoughts, and subsequent use of the term 'jingoist', in light of the words of Zelensky himself:




You should " reconsider" the username you have because being very familiar with Chomsky he would be grinding his teeth to dust if he could see his picture put with your jingoism alongside it
 

Chomsky

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You should " reconsider" the username you have because being very familiar with Chomsky he would be grinding his teeth to dust if he could see his picture put with your jingoism alongside it

The bolded has been brought to my attention, and I have considered it. Actually though, I think the RL Chomsky would like my independence of spirit!

However - your post here delving into my personal attributes, has nothing to do with the matters of the subject, nor has it moved the discussion forward or made any substantive points.
 

oneworld2

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The bolded has been brought to my attention, and I have considered it. Actually though, I think the RL Chomsky would like my independence of spirit!

However - your post here delving into my personal attributes, has nothing to do with the matters of the subject, nor has it moved the discussion forward or made any substantive points.

Nope, he would be cringing , believe me

I have already moved things along by pointing out just how nonchanantly some Americans are to throwing other people onto the fire from a safe distance. Why would you support actions that could lead to a broader war that puts even more peoples lives at risk?
 

maxparrish

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I'm not going to beat on our brass and military advisers. I suspect we have among the best in the world.

I think this is coming down to Biden. He's either making overly cautious decisions, or he's not admitting all he's doing publicly. I hope it's the latter, but I'm thinking it's probably the former.

I think your being generous to the Pentagon. My belief is that the State Department has a superior understanding of international relations, and Russian political intrigue and history. I trust the military, more or less, when it comes to their expertise on how the US fights wars, but I don't trust them to grasp the nuances of diplomacy or how other wars should be fought.

Much of this comes from my extensive readings in military history. In WWII, for example, American fighting men knew from the moment they encountered German tanks, especially panthers and tigers, they desperately needed better tanks (and that their superiors had B.S.'d them on the Sherman being the supreme tank)... Part of the reason that didn't happen was the foot-dragging by Pentagon "experts" who clung thought they didn't need it and that tank destroyers were the way to go.

The British, the folks doing the fighting far longer than the US, fully realized that the Sherman was inadequate but had to make do with their own gun replacement, which helped but did not equalize the tank to tank engagements.

So yes, the Pentagon is lobbying Biden against giving them aircraft on a spurious basis. And Biden is being far too cautious and hesitant.
 

Chomsky

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Nope, he would be cringing , believe me

I have already moved things along by pointing out just how nonchanantly some Americans are to throwing other people onto the fire from a safe distance. Why would you support actions that could lead to a broader war that puts even more peoples lives at risk?

It's a balancing act, my friend. You and I simply disagree on where to place the fulcrum.

Russia has been threatening nuclear war since Stalin. Some of us were part of "Duck & Cover", while others lived through JFK-Khrushchev-Cuba. This is nothing new.
 

Chomsky

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I think your being generous to the Pentagon. My belief is that the State Department has a superior understanding of international relations, and Russian political intrigue and history. I trust the military, more or less, when it comes to their expertise on how the US fights wars, but I don't trust them to grasp the nuances of diplomacy or how other wars should be fought.

The above is a distinction I wasn't making, so you could be right in general terms - I suspect you might.

But I would not go as far to say the decision makers and advisors are deficient, or not among the best in the world, at least in terms of those of us Americans looking from afar.


However, there is no way I'm capable of believing I have superior judgement or knowledge to any of them.

But, I may occasionally be convinced I can find ulterior motive in them! ;)
Much of this comes from my extensive readings in military history. In WWII, for example, American fighting men knew from the moment they encountered German tanks, especially panthers and tigers, they desperately needed better tanks (and that their superiors had B.S.'d them on the Sherman being the supreme tank)... Part of the reason that didn't happen was the foot-dragging by Pentagon "experts" who clung thought they didn't need it and that tank destroyers were the way to go.

The British, the folks doing the fighting far longer than the US, fully realized that the Sherman was inadequate but had to make do with their own gun replacement, which helped but did not equalize the tank to tank engagements.

So yes, the Pentagon is lobbying Biden against giving them aircraft on a spurious basis. And Biden is being far too cautious and hesitant.
 

oneworld2

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It's a balancing act, my friend. You and I simply disagree on where to place the fulcrum.

Russia has been threatening nuclear war since Stalin. Some of us were part of "Duck & Cover", while others lived through JFK-Khrushchev-Cuba. This is nothing new.

Describe this balancing act to me

Russia has drawn the line on its borders whereas you are thousands of miles away and throwing others under the bus as proxies for your war with Russia.

Recall Cuba was a RESPONSE to Turkey, that means you initiated the crisis
 

Nomad4Ever

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I wish you jingoist Americans would mind your own business and stop shit stirring in Europe and everywhere else around the globe. So much for wishes.
Bro Ukraine is begging, pleading for help from other countries. Stop being so American centric. Turkey is helping them and supplying them with TB-2 drones. Is Turkey stirring up shit too? What about Estonia? They sent Ukraine a ton of weapons. If anything America is…somewhat disinterested in this compared to Europe? Don’t get me wrong, we support them for sure. But for reasons that should be obvious it’s mostly countries that are in close proximity to Russia that have been the most vocal about sending weapons to Ukraine.
 

oneworld2

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Bro Ukraine is begging, pleading for help from other countries. Stop being so American centric. Turkey is helping them and supplying them with TB-2 drones. Is Turkey stirring up shit too? What about Estonia? They sent Ukraine a ton of weapons. If anything America is…somewhat disinterested in this compared to Europe? Don’t get me wrong, we support them for sure. But for reasons that should be obvious it’s mostly countries that are in close proximity to Russia that have been the most vocal about sending weapons to Ukraine.

Do you know on whose insistence the invite for NATO membership of Ukraine and Georgia was? The USA

Do you know who was behind the 2014 coup in Ukraine that overthrew the democratically elected government of Ukraine that led to the civil war there? the USA, they were even caught out picking who the replacements should be.

That other actors are now helping or ducking out of it for fear of reprisals ect is irrelevant to the US fingerprints on all the major pieces that have created this war, including wreckless NATO expansionism

Own it.
 

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I really wish Biden would grow a pair.

Unless he's doing all this stuff behind the scenes, but not admitting it publicly. Which is what I hope is happening.
We can only hope Biden is strongly in favor of providing Ukraine with advanced defensive weapons to counter bombers, helicopters, and ground-based missile launchers.
The Afghans were able to bleed the Russians dry back in the 80s using our advanced anti-aircraft missiles. We can only hope that can happen again given how accurate and powerful our ground-based missile defense systems can be.
What happens if Ukraine decides to take out a missile launcher based in Russia or Belorus?
What happens if any of the sophisticated anti-aircraft defense systems is hit by a Russian missile and it turns out that a trainer or technician from a NATO country is killed in the process?
 

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Do you know who was behind the 2014 coup in Ukraine that overthrew the democratically elected government of Ukraine that led to the civil war there? the USA, they were even caught out picking who the replacements should be.

Which narrative do you wish to believe? The U.S. was Pro-Ukraine or pro-Putin?


Was 2014 Ukrainian coup orchestrated by US?
  • Russian President Vladimir Putin has said the 2014 popular uprising that saw former Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovich forced from office was the result of a “coup” orchestrated by the United States and supported by Washington’s European allies and appealed for greater cooperation on the continent.
Putin accuses US of orchestrating ...
 

MamboDervish

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I really wish Biden would grow a pair.
Biden has a pair. Biden is doing exactly what any adult statesman should be doing. Nothing less than that. Every move he considers is in consultation with our allies in the region - EU and NATO - and he's to be commended for his restraint in resisting hotheaded escalation.
 

oneworld2

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Which narrative do you wish to believe? The U.S. was Pro-Ukraine or pro-Putin?


Was 2014 Ukrainian coup orchestrated by US?
  • Russian President Vladimir Putin has said the 2014 popular uprising that saw former Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovich forced from office was the result of a “coup” orchestrated by the United States and supported by Washington’s European allies and appealed for greater cooperation on the continent.
Putin accuses US of orchestrating ...


The US is pro US, it's the same with all states.

Do I think the US is pro Ukraine? Not at all, they are just the fodder fallout from wreckless NATO eastward expansion that everyone warned about the dangers thereof.

I think the Nuland/Pyatt leak told everyone who was pulling the strings behind the ouster of the elected government of Yanukovych. For sure there were mass protests about his , what they considered, overblown deliberations about the EU deal but these things can be and are exploited bu outside interests all the time and it's pretty clear that this was the case in2014 in Ukraine
 

Roadvirus

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I wish you jingoist Americans would mind your own business and stop shit stirring in Europe and everywhere else around the globe. So much for wishes.
We aren't the ones that started this hairball. Wanna blame someone for starting shit? Blame the loonball in Moscow.
 
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