U.S. Air Force Says 'No' to New Camouflage

[Porchev]

It irritated me when the USAF first came out with the Airmen Battle Uniform (ABU) that originally was going to be blue because it was supposed to be "in garrison" only. Before the ABU, the camo BDU, was not meant for home station only. Why would any military service want two different camo-type uniforms with one being for in garrison only? It seems like a waste of money to me.

But whatever, I am retired now, I should just focus on Allegro's new RV paint schemes instead.

Air Force Says 'No' to New Camouflage | Fox News

Air Force Says 'No' to New Camouflage | Military.com

 

[Oozlefinch]

Personally, I think it is long past time for all of the services to ditch their individual utility uniform patterns, and settle on 1 or 2 to standardize on.

The BDU was the standard for around 25 years, and I think we simply need to return to it. Save the multicam and other patterns for deployments, not garrison. And having each branch have it's own uniform (5 in total, the Marines use 2) is wasteful and more expensive.

 

[Risky Thicket]

It irritated me when the USAF first came out with the Airmen Battle Uniform (ABU) that originally was going to be blue because it was supposed to be "in garrison" only. Before the ABU, the camo BDU, was not meant for home station only. Why would any military service want two different camo-type uniforms with one being for in garrison only? It seems like a waste of money to me.

But whatever, I am retired now, I should just focus on Allegro's new RV paint schemes instead.

Air Force Says 'No' to New Camouflage | Fox News

Air Force Says 'No' to New Camouflage | Military.com

What's the point of service specific cammies? I could understand and support mission/duty specific cammies. It could be argued that if you are working on the flight line you might be better off wearing tiger stripes or an ABU that more closely resembles your duty environment. If however you are security, humping the wire, or transportation/supply running outside the wire, you might be better served with a different color and pattern.

 

[Oozlefinch]

What's the point of service specific cammies? I could understand and support mission/duty specific cammies. It could be argued that if you are working on the flight line you might be better off wearing tiger stripes or an ABU that more closely resembles your duty environment. If however you are security, humping the wire, or transportation/supply running outside the wire, you might be better served with a different color and pattern.

Actually, working a flight line I would think you actually want a uniform that contrasts more with the environment, so a pilot will not run over you by accident.

That is what blew my mind when I first started to see the "Blue Camouflage" that the Navy started to use.

[]img]http://cdn04.usni.org/sites/default/files/imagecache/story-large/stories/588190C34BF84366B8C138885D06C1A7.jpg[/img]

Now maybe this is just stupid, but what good is camouflage if you are on a ship? Wearing anything other then grey will basically make you stand out.

And if you somehow happen to fall overboard, do you really want a uniform that will make you harder for S&R to locate?

 

[APACHERAT]

Personally, I think it is long past time for all of the services to ditch their individual utility uniform patterns, and settle on 1 or 2 to standardize on.

The BDU was the standard for around 25 years, and I think we simply need to return to it. Save the multicam and other patterns for deployments, not garrison. And having each branch have it's own uniform (5 in total, the Marines use 2) is wasteful and more expensive.

Until McNamara came around the USMC use to manufacture all of their own uniforms.

The Marine Corps herringbone twill utility uniform was probably the best uniform ever made for the field and combat. Marines don't give a **** what they look like when they go into combat, the herringbone utility was comfortable, it breathed and could last a month in battle.

 

[braindrain]

Until McNamara came around the USMC use to manufacture all of their own uniforms.

The Marine Corps herringbone twill utility uniform was probably the best uniform ever made for the field and combat. Marines don't give a **** what they look like when they go into combat, the herringbone utility was comfortable, it breathed and could last a month in battle.

I agree that those uniforms do look like they would hold up well.
With that said if you have ever had the chance to get some Crye uniforms
I highly recommend them. Pockets in the perfect places a real good design for elbow or knee pads if you want to use them super comfortable in the heat and just fit very well and hold up real well. With that said they are stupid expensive and if my unit didn't buy them I probably wouldn't wear them to often. They are light years ahead of today's standard issue uniform. Arcterix also makes great uniforms but they are even more pricey.

 

[APACHERAT]

I agree that those uniforms do look like they would hold up well.
With that said if you have ever had the chance to get some Crye uniforms
I highly recommend them. Pockets in the perfect places a real good design for elbow or knee pads if you want to use them super comfortable in the heat and just fit very well and hold up real well. With that said they are stupid expensive and if my unit didn't buy them I probably wouldn't wear them to often. They are light years ahead of today's standard issue uniform. Arcterix also makes great uniforms but they are even more pricey.

One problem with the 100% cotton herringbone material, it may have breathed and was extremely comfortable it didn't last long in a wet tropical evironment and it did rip easily. But you could still wear underwear under the trousers unlike when the nylon/cotton rip stop jungle utilities/fatigues/BUD's? etc. were introduced during the Vietnam War. They lasted longer but they didn't breath as well as 100% cotton and since nylon melts when in contact to fire, it resulted in some very nasty burns that were a pain in the butt for Navy corpsman and Army medics.

Doesn't the Cyre uniforms use the Mil. Spec. 50/50 rip stop material ? I suppose if you reduced the thread count on the material it would become more breathable but it wouldn't last as long in the field.

But soldiers and Marines have always complained about the pockets, not large enough, not positioned in the right places, not enough of them or to many pockets with no use. The REMF's need to listen to the soldiers who are actually out in the field, listen to all of them from the PFC to SNCO's.

You know that the U.S. Army's uniform of choice in the European theatre during WW ll was wool. It breathed, it was comfortable and kept you warm except when it rained, you know what happens to wool when it gets wet.

What I can't figure out, why do sailors need a cammies while serving aboard a ship ? :lamo
American sailors look like plumbers wearing those blue overalls. They use to have an excellent utility uniform, a heavy thread count blue denim bell bottom trousers that even the hippies loved and a light thread count light blue cotton shirt.

 

[SayMyName]

It irritated me when the USAF first came out with the Airmen Battle Uniform (ABU) that originally was going to be blue because it was supposed to be "in garrison" only. Before the ABU, the camo BDU, was not meant for home station only. Why would any military service want two different camo-type uniforms with one being for in garrison only? It seems like a waste of money to me.

But whatever, I am retired now, I should just focus on Allegro's new RV paint schemes instead.

Air Force Says 'No' to New Camouflage | Fox News

Air Force Says 'No' to New Camouflage | Military.com

All this, and I heard just a few months ago at one operation in the Nordic countries, big brass saying that in the end none of the camouflage really works or is worth the cost over a plain green olive drab utility uniform of the army from years ago. I heard many of the other nation representatives say the same. I suppose then, it boils back down to where it always does...someone is making a lot of money.

 

[notquiteright]

It seems the more tail the military gets the more 'warrior' the persona. These days so few in uniform are the teeth and soooo many are civilians who learned how to salute. The jargon has gotten all salty for the REMF crowd, fun to hear admin NCOs refer to sending privates out to run errands as sending them on a 'mission' :doh.

So too the duty uniform has gotten all 'warrior' for the REMF crowd- so few will ever wear body armor but everyone wears the somewhat ridiculous ACU. the camo stands out like a sore thumb in the environment we work in, the German tropic pattern is far superior.

I've worn everything from the old 'starchies' to the BDU. I liked the 'jungle' rip stop- light, does breathe, and dries quickly even in a hot/wet environment- not a small deal to grunts not wanting a complete body covering of jungle rot. I found the jungles to not stand up to wear like older uniforms but it is much lighter in weight. Compared to the old canvas Junk Bearing Equipt, the nylon versions are not as durable but MUCH lighter- again if your primary MOS is 11 packmule weight does matter.

I wasn't a fan of the new synthetic cold weather wear in the beginning- but it is warmer, lighter and breathes better than the old wool under trousers and shirt. Wool weighs 7 tons when wet, means something to guys who walk for a living.

I have to smile to see the Navy's camo uniform... seriously???? But just more of that 'we are all warriors' sales pitch.

The AF is kinda funny, soooo many in the rear with the gear service members but a camo uniform down to green boots like they are 11 bushbeaters! Flying out of Shepard AFB in Wichita Falls Tx it is interesting to see the cammied flight line crews wearing neon safety vests... so much for being discrete...

Will be interesting to see if someone finally calls an end to the silly uniform fad and is realistic about what the vast majority of service personnel does while in uniform.

 

[braindrain]

It seems the more tail the military gets the more 'warrior' the persona. These days so few in uniform are the teeth and soooo many are civilians who learned how to salute. The jargon has gotten all salty for the REMF crowd, fun to hear admin NCOs refer to sending privates out to run errands as sending them on a 'mission' :doh.

So too the duty uniform has gotten all 'warrior' for the REMF crowd- so few will ever wear body armor but everyone wears the somewhat ridiculous ACU. the camo stands out like a sore thumb in the environment we work in, the German tropic pattern is far superior.

I've worn everything from the old 'starchies' to the BDU. I liked the 'jungle' rip stop- light, does breathe, and dries quickly even in a hot/wet environment- not a small deal to grunts not wanting a complete body covering of jungle rot. I found the jungles to not stand up to wear like older uniforms but it is much lighter in weight. Compared to the old canvas Junk Bearing Equipt, the nylon versions are not as durable but MUCH lighter- again if your primary MOS is 11 packmule weight does matter.

I wasn't a fan of the new synthetic cold weather wear in the beginning- but it is warmer, lighter and breathes better than the old wool under trousers and shirt. Wool weighs 7 tons when wet, means something to guys who walk for a living.

I have to smile to see the Navy's camo uniform... seriously???? But just more of that 'we are all warriors' sales pitch.

The AF is kinda funny, soooo many in the rear with the gear service members but a camo uniform down to green boots like they are 11 bushbeaters! Flying out of Shepard AFB in Wichita Falls Tx it is interesting to see the cammied flight line crews wearing neon safety vests... so much for being discrete...

Will be interesting to see if someone finally calls an end to the silly uniform fad and is realistic about what the vast majority of service personnel does while in uniform.

I agree 100% with pretty much everything you said except one thing. You said the ACUs are somewhat ridiculous. That is wrong. They are completely ridiculous and total and utter garbage. They fall apart the first time you wear them to the field, once the get dirty they will never come clean again, they make anyone who has ever spent more than a day in the gym look like a fat body, all the Velcro makes everyone look ridiculous, and to top it off the stick out like a sore thumb in almost every environment. Personally I think an investigation into how the ACUs were adopted should take place and some people end up with some jail time. It is sad when I have worked with the militaries of a ton of third world countries and they all had better uniforms than our ACUs. Hell the BDUs we give the Afghan army are better than what we give US soldiers.

I am so thankful that the only time I have to wear them is in garrison. Out training or on deployments we wear out Patagonia multi-cams or our older Cryes. So much better of a uniform it is not even funny.

 

[Porchev]

All this, and I heard just a few months ago at one operation in the Nordic countries, big brass saying that in the end none of the camouflage really works or is worth the cost over a plain green olive drab utility uniform of the army from years ago. I heard many of the other nation representatives say the same. I suppose then, it boils back down to where it always does...someone is making a lot of money.

I think the BDUs were just fine for most wooded areas. The USAF's ABU is good for...well, I don't know where they were good for camo-wise. The USAF even started wearing Multicams in Afghanistan since ABUs didn't blend in.

99% of the time I wore either a green or tan Nomex flight suit depending on where we were operating at. And the flight suit didn't change much the whole time I was in. Except for the last few years when they changed the zippers manufacturer on them and they would frequently break and the whole suit would require replacement.

 

[beerftw]

It irritated me when the USAF first came out with the Airmen Battle Uniform (ABU) that originally was going to be blue because it was supposed to be "in garrison" only. Before the ABU, the camo BDU, was not meant for home station only. Why would any military service want two different camo-type uniforms with one being for in garrison only? It seems like a waste of money to me.

But whatever, I am retired now, I should just focus on Allegro's new RV paint schemes instead.

Air Force Says 'No' to New Camouflage | Fox News

Air Force Says 'No' to New Camouflage | Military.com

the army is deciding on 3 uniform patterns,one desert,one woodland,and one inbetween which will be garrison and any environment the other two dont fit in.this came after the army acu failed horribly in every environment but gray urban areas.

the airforce abu is literally the acu colorscheme but in tigerstripe instead of digital.it is terrible in any combat,also the navy used a uniform for garrison and ship,which is utterly useless for combat as well,being a blue digital pattern,when i deployed navy seabees still wore dcu's and other navy personell wore army acu's.


the only branch to get uniforms right were the marines,who issued both woodland and desert camos.

 

[Kobie]

the army is deciding on 3 uniform patterns,one desert,one woodland,and one inbetween which will be garrison and any environment the other two dont fit in.this came after the army acu failed horribly in every environment but gray urban areas.

the airforce abu is literally the acu colorscheme but in tigerstripe instead of digital.it is terrible in any combat,also the navy used a uniform for garrison and ship,which is utterly useless for combat as well,being a blue digital pattern,when i deployed navy seabees still wore dcu's and other navy personell wore army acu's.


the only branch to get uniforms right were the marines,who issued both woodland and desert camos.

They should all just wear tan suits

 

[beerftw]

They should all just wear tan suits

i actually think they need to go to a three uniform standard like the army plans,but make it the same across branches,instead of the military in a fashion contest with itself.

for decades the military across all branches shared uniforms,only differing in patch layouts,why they now have to be unique is beyond me.

 

[beerftw]

All this, and I heard just a few months ago at one operation in the Nordic countries, big brass saying that in the end none of the camouflage really works or is worth the cost over a plain green olive drab utility uniform of the army from years ago. I heard many of the other nation representatives say the same. I suppose then, it boils back down to where it always does...someone is making a lot of money.

actually camo is quite effective at a distance in a firefight,or in any situation your not moving.


fyi od green was one of the most effective camos in europe,because its a neutral green and blends in well with forests grasslands etc.so essentially most european countries wont find anything better or most cost effective than od green,unless ofcourse they tested it in other countries.

 

[roguenuke]

Actually, working a flight line I would think you actually want a uniform that contrasts more with the environment, so a pilot will not run over you by accident.

That is what blew my mind when I first started to see the "Blue Camouflage" that the Navy started to use.

[]img]http://cdn04.usni.org/sites/default/files/imagecache/story-large/stories/588190C34BF84366B8C138885D06C1A7.jpg[/img]

Now maybe this is just stupid, but what good is camouflage if you are on a ship? Wearing anything other then grey will basically make you stand out.

And if you somehow happen to fall overboard, do you really want a uniform that will make you harder for S&R to locate?

On carriers, we don't wear the NWUs (blue cammies) on the flight deck. They were colored turtlenecks (which is why we refer to them as "skittles") where the colors designate their job area.

Most of the crew on ships wear coveralls (except maybe some admin guys and others who mainly work in offices).

 

[PirateMk1]

actually camo is quite effective at a distance in a firefight,or in any situation your not moving.


fyi od green was one of the most effective camos in europe,because its a neutral green and blends in well with forests grasslands etc.so essentially most european countries wont find anything better or most cost effective than od green,unless ofcourse they tested it in other countries.

I bet you find that plain jane kaki works similarly in the desert environment. I never did understand why the military used Velcro on their uniforms. Not exactly what I would use for fasteners that may be needed to be used discretely.

 

[beerftw]

I bet you find that plain jane kaki works similarly in the desert environment. I never did understand why the military used Velcro on their uniforms. Not exactly what I would use for fasteners that may be needed to be used discretely.

plain jane tan khakis wouldnt work well in the desert unless they had cargo pockets and were a more neutral tan,but they would definately work better than the army air force and navy uniforms.


velcro was a stupid idea,noise discipline goes out the window,plus it wears out fast making uniforms look tacky when they cant hold together.a2cu uniforms only approved for soldiers on flight status or deployed in a combat zone uses zippers over velcro,except the blousing.they were made because flight crew threw a fit about every time they reached for something in tight aircraft space their velcro was always snagging.

id prefer buttons,currently the acu uniform now issued only uses velcro for patches,as soldiers too threw a fit,and buttons were put in cargo pockets and jacket blousing.well i guess they still have them for the bottom 2 pockets and shoulder and chest pockets,but its a step up.

 

[beerftw]

On carriers, we don't wear the NWUs (blue cammies) on the flight deck. They were colored turtlenecks (which is why we refer to them as "skittles") where the colors designate their job area.

Most of the crew on ships wear coveralls (except maybe some admin guys and others who mainly work in offices).

how many uniforms does the navy have now?

when i was a kid i remember my father had an entire walk in closet filled with uniforms.

he had his khakis,his coveralls,his class b's,his class a's,bdu's,dcu's,and both black and white color cracker jacks depending on the season.

it was ridiculous that he would have to show up to his ship in class b uniform,then change into his khakis,then next day show up in class b then switch to bdus for training excercises,then to his crackerjacks for inspection,then to his coveralls for work.

 

[roguenuke]

how many uniforms does the navy have now?

when i was a kid i remember my father had an entire walk in closet filled with uniforms.

he had his khakis,his coveralls,his class b's,his class a's,bdu's,dcu's,and both black and white color cracker jacks depending on the season.

it was ridiculous that he would have to show up to his ship in class b uniform,then change into his khakis,then next day show up in class b then switch to bdus for training excercises,then to his crackerjacks for inspection,then to his coveralls for work.

Depends on the rank. I am getting pinned for Chief in a week and a half and just bought 2 new uniforms, plus some stuff for another. There is also more besides that that we aren't really required to have. So I should have coveralls (I don't wear), NWUs, khakis, dress whites, dress blues, summer whites, dinner dress blues.

E-6 and below should have coveralls, NWUs (cammies), NSUs (black and tans), dress whites and dress blues.

Now there are some alternate uniforms for us. And we now have an official PT uniform.

 

[APACHERAT]

Depends on the rank. I am getting pinned for Chief in a week .

Congratulations roughenuke.

Are you being pinned the old Navy traditional way or the new PC Navy way where no blood flows ? :lol:

 

[Oozlefinch]

Depends on the rank. I am getting pinned for Chief in a week and a half and just bought 2 new uniforms, plus some stuff for another. There is also more besides that that we aren't really required to have. So I should have coveralls (I don't wear), NWUs, khakis, dress whites, dress blues, summer whites, dinner dress blues.

E-6 and below should have coveralls, NWUs (cammies), NSUs (black and tans), dress whites and dress blues.

Now there are some alternate uniforms for us. And we now have an official PT uniform.

Congrats on that Chiefie. To bad you are not allowed to wear beards anymore. *grin*

I actually remember Chiefs turning in their retirement packages when that was phased out. A lot of senior leadership turned over when that happened, they had more dedication to facial hair then to the military.

And ironically, I have actually been seeing Sailors recently doing group PT, something I never saw once in the 6 years I spent on Navy bases. I guess things are finally changing.

 

[roguenuke]

Congrats on that Chiefie. To bad you are not allowed to wear beards anymore. *grin*

I actually remember Chiefs turning in their retirement packages when that was phased out. A lot of senior leadership turned over when that happened, they had more dedication to facial hair then to the military.

And ironically, I have actually been seeing Sailors recently doing group PT, something I never saw once in the 6 years I spent on Navy bases. I guess things are finally changing.

Group PT is definitely the "in" thing now for the Navy. It wasn't something we normally did either while I was on active duty. And we are expected to be in the new "PT uniform" as well (I hate how the Navy insists on having some of the worst looking uniform items/colors, bright yellow shirts were not necessary, I preferred the unofficial ones from my boot camp time almost 16 years ago, white with the reflective grey/black letters).

 

[Flamethrower]

I think each service should try to have the same duty outfit for all their forces. Each branch having their own variant. Only the real fighter and trigger pullers like the Air Force PJ's and Forward Air Controllers should have something like Multi Cam (The pattern that is most superior in most environments).

The old olive drab uniforms from the Vietnam era is what I started in. In Basic, they would tear, and had terrible pockets. The black boots would quickly loose their shine crawling in sand and gravel---and were the worst part of the old uniform. Thank God those are history.

The BDU's I was phased-in with were pretty good overall. However, with the military getting smaller, and being stationed so near to unfriedly forces around the world, I think the idea of having the REMF's and Fobbits ready as fighting forces is far more important that what uniform they are wearing. Think Stalingrad---and more recently Bengazi. Think "Force Multipliers."

It is the weaker soldiers like women, who by nature, have only 60% the strength of men, that are not "suited" for modern ground infantry combat. The more women in each military unit, the less combat effective they become. It's not personal, it's just science.

 

[Oozlefinch]

The BDU's I was phased-in with were pretty good overall. However, with the military getting smaller, and being stationed so near to unfriedly forces around the world, I think the idea of having the REMF's and Fobbits ready as fighting forces is far more important that what uniform they are wearing. Think Stalingrad---and more recently Bengazi. Think "Force Multipliers."

Actually, the reason behind the BDU pattern was that it matched the places we would most likely be fighting in, and most of the world.

About the only places they do not work well is desert and snow. But for those areas we had special uniforms just for there.

I think it makes sense to go back to a modern digital BDU pattern (digital has other advantages, harder to see in night vision, blends easier then the old school pattern). But desert and snow should remain for deployment in those areas, not for every day use. The Marine pattern is probably one of the best I have seen, and works in a wide variety of terrains. Enough green to blend in woodlands, just enough brown to do the same without overpowering the foliage.

We should all just go to a pattern like this, save Desert uniforms for deployments in desert terrain, or as it used to be, for issue to those who are going to be working in the desert (like 29 Palms or Fort Irwin). I see it as a waste to issue a different uniform to each branch.