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Two-thirds would struggle to cover $1,000 emergency...

Where was this ever dug up from ? Even I , a ''semi-atheist'' know better !

From David N. Post #468:

What's good for the individual isn't good for the economy if everyone starts doing it.
Example:
- If I start saving 10% of my income and cut back my spending dramatically, I will be fine for the future!
* (Assuming Half of employed people begin to do this.) - Sales drop dramatically, people are laid off, downward spiral.


David speaks for many liberal MMT'rs.
 
Not surprising, very few people have mastered the art of living within their means. With that being said, I'd still say a good portion of those 2/3 don't have any legitimate means to live with.
 
As if right wingers ever make these "gifts!": :lamo

What a bunch of hypocrites...

we are not the ones constantly clamoring that people should pay more taxes.
so no hypocrites at all.

if you honestly feel that the government doesn't take enough of your money or that it needs more
there is your chance to give it.

pretty much every liberal I know of that rants and raves about more taxes backs down as soon as I give them the link.
 
"America", if it were a person, would need a shrink.

Normal people don't like (1) wars, (2) immigrants, and (3) going broke shopping. Americans like all three.

Within weeks of my arrival, with the war in Vietnam in full swing, I was told - not once - that wars are good for the economy. How? Well, people who make bombs are employed, aren't they? Or, if we won't (be the world's cop) who will? The messiah complex at work.

Over the years, I was told that immigration is great and that the illegals do what the Americans won't. Any attempt to show that only some immigrants are an asset and that the majority are not, would draw this lessen in history: we are a country of immigrants - said with the same conviction some proclaim believing in God. Mentioning the billions Americans spend on the immigrants' free medical care, free education, and incarceration while paying no taxes - save sales tax - would be as compelling to the fact averse pro-immigration zealots as trying to tell a homeowner that getting a cheap lawn service from an illegal is a very expensive deal indeed if both sides of the ledger are honestly accounted for. Denial - a form of mental disorder - is popular in America.

The U.S. is flat broke, as paying trillions to police the world leaves very little to spend at home. To make matters worse, Americans, being clueless how wealth is created, bought into the crap that sending manufacturing jobs abroad is good, and that there is such thing as service economy. Some believe that casinos are good for the economy, too. Having lost almost all of the manufacturing and, along with it, tax base, the American prosperity is a mirage fed by borrowed money.

Which bring me to the subject of going broke shopping. America, its government and the people who elect it, is addicted to spending every available dollar. A mentally stable person who suddenly gets 10 grand saves it. An addicted shopper blows it - hey you only live once, right? Or, worse yet, uses the money as a down payment to buy a boat for 100k, thus turning an asset worth 10k into the debt of 90k and a bottomless expense pit.

While in some countries the savings rates are almost insane by the U.S. standards - in many cases over 50% - in Europe, China and Japan people save as if the Great Depression just ended. In this regard, Americans stand alone, behaving like they were on the death watch with six month to live.
 
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OK, but I have no idea what makes up those revenues, or how that compares to other states, etc..

Well, I sorta hyperlinked them for you, and last I checked google was still working...

I'm just looking at nearly 70 years of history, and at an aging populace, etc. I'm not going to nitpick your numbers or assumptions, but the problem is you have huge and powerful interests protecting their turf on all the big items, and all that 70 years of history is a pretty good indicator about what is feasible, in this reality, with Congress and a POTUS answering to 50 states, and all those various interest groups, and that is spending probably close to 20% of GDP, at least.

If your argument is that we do spend about a fifth of our economy, then I would agree. But that is a very different argument from the one that we have to spend about that much if we want to live in a first world nation.

For goodness sake, when the ACA was up for approval and in the midterms after that, the GOP!! ran on protecting f'ing Medicare and accusing the democrats of making these awful cuts that will hurt the seniors. This was the supposedly anti-spending GOP!

All spending cuts are not equal, and there are good reasons to support some while opposing others.

For example, we could reform Social Security by cutting off payments to the bottom third of recipients, or the top quarter - but the nature of those cuts (and the benefit v harm of each) are very different.

In the case of Medicare, Obamacare's plan was to cut Medicare by dramatically reducing the reimbursement schedule - effectively making it impossible for many providers to take Medicare patients, and reducing Medicare patients' access to actual healthcare. One day we may be so bad off that we have to do that, but right now, that's a bad cut - there are wiser ways to reduce Medicare expenditures without blocking seniors from being able to access care.

Then they double-counted the same cuts to try to keep the top-line costs down :smh:

And no wonder, look at ANY poll and there is pretty much NO constituency for big cuts in any large program, not except in theory to some other people who aren't them, like the poors and the blahs and immigrants and cowboy poetry festivals, etc. Cut those things but keep your dirty government hands off my Medicare and Social Security! And obviously anyone wanting big cuts to defense hates America and wants the terrorists to win! Etc.................... That's just reality.

I concur that the American public is woefully underinformed, misinformed, and unrealistically optimistic about government numbers. But the drivers of the growth in government spending are the entitlements, not DOD, and we have already started to reform major drivers of DOD spending. Not so with our safety net. That's what we have to work on if we want to avoid sudden, jarring changes in the future that we will like even less.

This is the point at which lawmakers and people in the media who actually cared about the country more than their immediate future would begin the difficult work of grabbing onto the third rail, and educating the American people. Paul Ryan (imo) deserves incredible respect for leading this effort back when no one else was willing, and it was considered too dangerous and difficult for a politician's career to survive. But the effort is easily demagogued by those whose time horizon is the next November, rather than the next decade or two.
 
OK, but people like Milton Friedman have modeled the effects and concluded that borrowed tax cuts cost more than a $1 per dollar of tax cuts in the long term. Partly because of the mechanics. If government borrows, then someone in the real economy has to buy a government bond, instead of invest in machinery or whatever, and interest.

I think this only holds true when you increase government spending. If you transfer a dollar that would have been taxed to a dollar that becomes borrowed - that is still a dollar that is going to the government, rather than to invest in machinery, or whatever.

Yeah, but it's because of math. If you use the currently ultra low interest rates to borrow and assume a 17% increase in output, of course anyone would borrow forever at that differential, but it's the differential that is the issue. Cut those boosts in growth to a reasonable level and the interest costs and crowding out, etc. come much closer to eating the whole amount.

A 0.5% of GDP reduction in taxation resulted in only a 0.25% increase in GDP. I'd call that fairly reasonable.

It doesn't do much good except to prove that the math works. The key is what is a reasonable long term expectation for added growth per dollar of tax cut.

:shrug: if you want to argue which-year-where, sure. If you simply want to point out that any tax cut which increases economic activity does eventually pay for itself, not really.

It's a question of time windows - a tax rate cut has not "paid for itself" or not if it achieves revenue parity (that is driven by other major factors) within a certain number of days- the appropriate question is "when does this pay for itself", and can we sustain, mitigate, or off-ramp damage done to government revenues in the meantime.

OK, and they won't be scoring any tax cuts as revenue positive over 10 years, dynamic scoring or not.

That's a fascinating prediction. On what do you base it. I can think of easy ways to reduce nominal rates while increasing revenues through things like tax code simplification.

What dynamic scoring is intended to do is bias the analysis in favor of tax cuts, which is what every politician wants to do.

Have you heard of a political party called "Democrats"?

But as long as head of CBO is an actual professional economist, and not a crank from AEI or Heritage or something, it won't have that much effect, most likely.

Dynamic scoring is intended to make predictions more accurately reflect real decisions that people make, and their impacts on our economy and federal budget. Ranting about Heritage/AEI doesn't really alter that - nor do I see any reason to think that an economist working for government would be any more or less likely to be a crank than an economist working for Heritage, AEI, Brookings, Harvard, etc.

If I may quote one of those professional economists, however: “Indeed, one of the most attractive aspects of dynamic scoring is its promise of allowing policymakers to distinguish between economically efficient tax policies that promote growth, and those that work to reduce the living standards of future generations.” (Douglas Holtz-Eakin, former CBO Director).

It would be, and thankfully that's not at all what 'static' scoring does! It's pretty amazing how often this is misrepresented.

Let's say that 500% tax was on beer. The projection would absolutely assume that a HUGE number of people would quit drinking beer and start drinking wine or liquor or soda or water...

No, that's a dynamic score. A Static Score holds inputs.... static. A static scoring of a 500% tax on beer would dutifully figure out how much beer people drank, the non-tax cost of the beer, and multiply it by 5. Static scoring assumes no impact on behavior - dynamic scoring does.

These people are VERY smart, from what I understand some of the best in the world at this, and simply would never do what you suggest.

They are very smart. But they are also required to follow political direction. If, for example, the President attaches an assumption that, because of his proposals, growth will reach 4.5% starting next year, and continue ad infinitum, then they are required to dutifully assume that. That's why you have to watch the inputs that they were given fairly closely. If they are told to score something statically.... then that is what they will do.

Sometimes they attach "Alternative Fiscal Scenarios" where the alternative includes inputs that the CBO finds more likely.

I agree, especially about the 'under promise' stuff. It's the 'conservative' approach to budgeting!

It's the wise one. Plan for problems - and then have to worry about the "problem" of being better off than anticipated.
 
we are not the ones constantly clamoring that people should pay more taxes.
so no hypocrites at all.

if you honestly feel that the government doesn't take enough of your money or that it needs more
there is your chance to give it.

pretty much every liberal I know of that rants and raves about more taxes backs down as soon as I give them the link.

This is dishonest as usual. I've never met a liberal who wants more taxes for everybody. Usually it's just the 1%, or even the .01%.

But hey, if you're not a hypocrite, here's your chance to prove it:

Get a gift receipt from this link and post it here, with your name, etc. redacted. I will match you contribution dollar for dollar.
 
Link to where he advocates higher income taxes across the board.

See how Bernie Sanders' name is blue and underlined in the post you quoted?

Ahhh.... I see. You are trying to shift the goalposts by making it about "income taxes" in order to exclude "payroll taxes".... which are taxes on the same thing (income), but which go by a different title.
 
I think this only holds true when you increase government spending. If you transfer a dollar that would have been taxed to a dollar that becomes borrowed - that is still a dollar that is going to the government, rather than to invest in machinery, or whatever.

It's not that simple, and unless you're a professional economist, I'll take the word of a tax cut loving Nobel prize winner that there is no free lunch and tax cuts do not pay for themselves, but require actually difficult tradeoffs - higher spending requires higher tax rates.

A 0.5% of GDP reduction in taxation resulted in only a 0.25% increase in GDP. I'd call that fairly reasonable.

LOL, it's not. Of if you think it is, that tax cuts alone have that kind of ROE, then you'll have to cite some very compelling evidence.
if you want to argue which-year-where, sure. If you simply want to point out that any tax cut which increases economic activity does eventually pay for itself, not really.

It's a question of time windows - a tax rate cut has not "paid for itself" or not if it achieves revenue parity (that is driven by other major factors) within a certain number of days- the appropriate question is "when does this pay for itself", and can we sustain, mitigate, or off-ramp damage done to government revenues in the meantime.

It's just not that simple. Again, you've already agreed that a certain amount of government is necessary, and adds TO growth, rather than causes it to decline, and you ignore interest costs, the effect of borrowing on interest rates, crowding out, etc. You simply cannot say, and I've never seen any economist ever in any context say, that ALL TAX CUTS EVENTUALLY PAY FOR THEMSELVES, regardless of the cost of borrowing, from what levels, etc. So it's simply NOT just "when" but IF. If you can cite any analysis, any theoretical study, any model other than your very limited model with made up variables and assumptions simplified to the point of absurdity, that you can make a blanket statement that all tax cuts will eventually pay for themselves, then please cite it.

That's a fascinating prediction. On what do you base it. I can think of easy ways to reduce nominal rates while increasing revenues through things like tax code simplification.

Well, by "tax code simplification" I assume you mean broaden the base, and of course Rate X Base = Revenue. If you decrease the Rate then it's just simple math to figure out how much you have to increase Base to hit any Revenue target you want. I'm fully aware of this basic equation and how it works....:roll:

Have you heard of a political party called "Democrats"?

Your point? Democrats aren't math deniers who think you can increase spending while cutting tax rates - that's a GOP position.

Dynamic scoring is intended to make predictions more accurately reflect real decisions that people make, and their impacts on our economy and federal budget. Ranting about Heritage/AEI doesn't really alter that - nor do I see any reason to think that an economist working for government would be any more or less likely to be a crank than an economist working for Heritage, AEI, Brookings, Harvard, etc.

I know the purpose, and if you want I'll admit I don't want anyone from a liberal advocacy think tank in charge of CBO either. They're biased by default, it is their JOB.

If I may quote one of those professional economists, however: “Indeed, one of the most attractive aspects of dynamic scoring is its promise of allowing policymakers to distinguish between economically efficient tax policies that promote growth, and those that work to reduce the living standards of future generations.” (Douglas Holtz-Eakin, former CBO Director).

OK, no problem with that. It also biases budget decisions to bet on the come, to take the 100% certain tax reductions contingent on the highly uncertain future growth and tax revenues based on that growth.
 
No, that's a dynamic score. A Static Score holds inputs.... static. A static scoring of a 500% tax on beer would dutifully figure out how much beer people drank, the non-tax cost of the beer, and multiply it by 5. Static scoring assumes no impact on behavior - dynamic scoring does.

It's just not true. The difference is simple - a static score assumes that a beer tax or removing a beer tax will not affect the overall output of the economy, but it would absolutely assume that behavior changes exactly like you would predict it would - less beer, more bourbon or wine! A dynamic score would predict THE SAME behavioral changes, AND look to see if eliminating the beer tax might increase the overall output or rate of growth.

Here's a link: https://www.cbo.gov/about/processes#behavior

What behavioral responses are included in CBO’s estimates?

CBO’s analysts assess the extent to which proposed policies would affect people’s behavior in ways that would generate budgetary savings or costs, and those effects are routinely incorporated in the agency’s cost estimates and reports. For example, the agency’s estimates include changes in the production of various crops that would result from adopting new farm policies, changes in the likelihood that people would take up certain government benefits if policies pertaining to those benefits were altered, and changes in the quantity of health care services that would be provided if Medicare’s payment rates to certain providers were adjusted. (Similarly, in its estimates of the budgetary effects of tax legislation, the staff of the Joint Committee on Taxation accounts for behavioral responses to changes in the tax system—for example, changes that would take place in the timing and size of capital gains realizations if the tax rate applicable to capital gains was modified.)

However, with a few exceptions, CBO’s cost estimates for individual legislative proposals have not reflected changes in behavior that would affect total output in the economy, such as any changes in the labor supply or private investment resulting from changes in fiscal policy, and that would thereby affect the federal budget. That is, CBO’s cost estimates generally have not included what is sometimes known as dynamic scoring. The convention of not incorporating macroeconomic effects in cost estimates, a practice that has been followed in the Congressional budget process since it was established in the 1970s, reflects several facts: Completing macroeconomic analysis of all proposed legislation would not be feasible; nearly all legislation analyzed by CBO would have negligible macroeconomic effects (and thus negligible feedback to the federal budget); and estimates of macroeconomic effects are highly uncertain. CBO’s only exceptions to this approach have been a few cost estimates for comprehensive immigration legislation that would have substantially increased the U.S. labor force. (Assuming that those bills would have had no effect on overall output would have ignored one of the primary effects of the bills and distorted those estimates too severely.)

So, what I said earlier.....

They are very smart. But they are also required to follow political direction. If, for example, the President attaches an assumption that, because of his proposals, growth will reach 4.5% starting next year, and continue ad infinitum, then they are required to dutifully assume that. That's why you have to watch the inputs that they were given fairly closely. If they are told to score something statically.... then that is what they will do.

You're really not describing the process and what they do accurately, and you are again misstating what "static" scoring actually means.

Sometimes they attach "Alternative Fiscal Scenarios" where the alternative includes inputs that the CBO finds more likely.

Right, the 'official' CBO score on that legislation took into account what the laws WERE. The alternative you linked to made some assumptions based on past history, like the continually extended Doc Fix, and assumed those practices would continue. That's fine but I'm missing the point.
 
Well, I sorta hyperlinked them for you, and last I checked google was still working...

Doing two hours of analysis to respond to a post isn't on the agenda today or any day...

If your argument is that we do spend about a fifth of our economy, then I would agree. But that is a very different argument from the one that we have to spend about that much if we want to live in a first world nation.

I'm just noting political realities that have produced a certain level of spending in a messy democracy with 1,000 different competing interest groups many of them very powerful and with competing interests. Obviously, if we become a dictatorship or a one party state and one side can unilaterally dictate spending, then we'll get different outcomes.


All spending cuts are not equal, and there are good reasons to support some while opposing others.

For example, we could reform Social Security by cutting off payments to the bottom third of recipients, or the top quarter - but the nature of those cuts (and the benefit v harm of each) are very different.

In the case of Medicare, Obamacare's plan was to cut Medicare by dramatically reducing the reimbursement schedule - effectively making it impossible for many providers to take Medicare patients, and reducing Medicare patients' access to actual healthcare. One day we may be so bad off that we have to do that, but right now, that's a bad cut - there are wiser ways to reduce Medicare expenditures without blocking seniors from being able to access care.

Then they double-counted the same cuts to try to keep the top-line costs down :smh:

There is no constituency for big cuts in any big program. The GOP held the reins during the Bush era - no big cuts to defense, Medicare, Medicaid, VA, SS, food stamps, etc.

I concur that the American public is woefully underinformed, misinformed, and unrealistically optimistic about government numbers. But the drivers of the growth in government spending are the entitlements, not DOD, and we have already started to reform major drivers of DOD spending. Not so with our safety net. That's what we have to work on if we want to avoid sudden, jarring changes in the future that we will like even less.

This is the point at which lawmakers and people in the media who actually cared about the country more than their immediate future would begin the difficult work of grabbing onto the third rail, and educating the American people. Paul Ryan (imo) deserves incredible respect for leading this effort back when no one else was willing, and it was considered too dangerous and difficult for a politician's career to survive. But the effort is easily demagogued by those whose time horizon is the next November, rather than the next decade or two.

I agree with everything but your praise for Ryan. He's as big a charlatan as anyone up there, voting FOR big spending programs, then opposing them later with laughable proposals that depend on a series of "magic asterisks" to make them work. The point is he NEVER to my knowledge produced a proposal that seriously outlined the tough trade-offs necessary to make his proposals work. I quit really paying attention after the third or fourth such BS effort, so I could be proved wrong.
 
You've never heard of Bernie Sanders?
Employees and employers would each make contributions of just 0.2 percent of wages.

dreamstime_s_18882968.jpg
 
A strawman is not a mindset, any more than a carrot can be a mindset.

"Liberals at least try to solve the nation's problems. Conservatives and Libertarians have zero interest in problem solving. If they can't find someone else to blame for a problem, they just ignore reality and deny the problem exists."

Sounds to me like you're admitting that liberal solutions don't work but you give them an "A" anyway for at least trying. Why don't we all work together and try finding solutions that actually work instead of trying things that not only don't work, but often make the problem worse than it was before.
 
See how Bernie Sanders' name is blue and underlined in the post you quoted?
How could any payroll tax affect everyone? Not everyone is on a payroll.

Ahhh.... I see. You are trying to shift the goalposts by making it about "income taxes" in order to exclude "payroll taxes".... which are taxes on the same thing (income), but which go by a different title.
Don't be absurd. It can't be a simple matter of semantics when different entities pay the tax. :doh
 
"Liberals at least try to solve the nation's problems. Conservatives and Libertarians have zero interest in problem solving. If they can't find someone else to blame for a problem, they just ignore reality and deny the problem exists."

Sounds to me like you're admitting that liberal solutions don't work but you give them an "A" anyway for at least trying. Why don't we all work together and try finding solutions that actually work instead of trying things that not only don't work, but often make the problem worse than it was before.

I'd be all for that, but so far all I've seen in the past 8 years is "No! We refuse to work with you evil libs!" And by the way, it's slowly killing the GOP.
 
I'd be all for that, but so far all I've seen in the past 8 years is "No! We refuse to work with you evil libs!" And by the way, it's slowly killing the GOP.

But I think that's true on both sides. The Democrats refused to work with the Republicans just as much, just because they were Republicans. The amount of ideological deadlock in this country is absurd on both sides.
 
Since your government is your worst enemy, you should like deadlock. Anyone who is in a deadlock can do no harm.

The government isn't anyone's enemy, except those whose views do not appeal to the majority of Americans and therefore cannot get into power.
 
I'd be all for that, but so far all I've seen in the past 8 years is "No! We refuse to work with you evil libs!" And by the way, it's slowly killing the GOP.

They don't want to work with the evil libs because, as you seem to admit, their solutions don't work!
 
This is dishonest as usual. I've never met a liberal who wants more taxes for everybody. Usually it's just the 1%, or even the .01%.

But hey, if you're not a hypocrite, here's your chance to prove it:

Get a gift receipt from this link and post it here, with your name, etc. redacted. I will match you contribution dollar for dollar.

I am only a hypocrite if I expect people to pay more in taxes yet refuse to do it myself. since I try to pay as little
in tax as I can I am not a hypocrite. you really don't seem to understand the definition of the word.
and no liberals are all the time clamoring that people should pay more in taxes.

when given the opportunity to pay more in taxes themselves they run for the hills.

if you want to pay more in taxes please do so. I have given you the opportunity to pay as much as you want
to the federal government. I prefer to keep my money since I work for it.
 
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