Two Shot at Muhammad Art Exhibit [W:439, 529, 978, 1489]

Higgins86 · May 4, 2015

Re: Two Shot at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

Anglo-scot said:
The elephant in the room is our military interventions in the Middle East. We've never apologised for them properly or tried to make amends. Then idiots pile in with their childish expressions of freedom of speech against Islam and the whole thing becomes a powder keg.

But our middle east interventions don't explain why Native born Muslims are becoming more fanatic. It wasn't a war on Islam it was a war on terror, a war which is still going on and is also being fought by other Islamic countries.

Peter Grimm · May 4, 2015

Re: Shooting at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

Anglo-scot said:
|Points taken but the historic approach won't work with many Muslims, for the reasons I set out in my post. We are talking about a group of people with huge obstacles to integration. No doubt, this problem was not anticipated in the US - it certainly wasn't in the UK.

I would say that, if nothing changes, you're heading for a showdown. The right of free speech isn't going to change and IMO doesn't need so much focus. It would be conciliatory for Muslims to hear from Americans that they don't consider that insulting the religion of American Muslims is a morally acceptable way to behave and that the organisers of this meeting were wrong to put it on. Let's hope Barack Obama says something conciliatory.

I doubt we hear anything from Obama, as recognition of their demented cause would just embolden the radicals to do more crazy stuff in the future.

I can't get behind this "blame the victim" mentality you're espousing. Do we blame a raped woman for being out alone at night or dressing provocatively? Of course not. So why should we blame the victims in this case?

It's the perpetrators who were 100 percent at fault in this case. Deadly force is a vast overreaction to something as silly as a cartoon, and the criminals were rightly shot dead in order to protect the innocent.

Giving their cause any sense of legitimacy would, in my opinion, be a mistake.

If Muslims wanted to peacefully protest the cartoon event by picketing, raising public awareness, or arranging a boycott of some sort, you would have a point. However, when you storm the meeting with guns drawn, you and your cause lose legitimacy in the eyes of the public, and your likelihood of obtaining any conciliation decreases.

Apocalypse · May 4, 2015

Re: Shooting at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

PeteEU said:
Considering that this so called voicing of an opinion was designed to create a reaction somewhere... then this is no different than the actual act committed. It is like shouting fire in a crowded theatre and people getting trampled to death.. you are still responsible for the trampling even though you have your "free speech" to shout fire.

Tell us more about how those ladies should stop wearing those short skirts or we'll keep raping them.

Kobie · May 4, 2015

Re: Shooting at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

US Conservative said:
Kobie, please read books. Islamic culture - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The fact that islamic terror is a problem wherever there are muslims should be a hint to you.

"Please read books," he says, citing Wikipedia. Irony not lost.

Kobie · May 4, 2015

Re: Shooting at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

Peter Grimm said:
I doubt we hear anything from Obama, as recognition of their demented cause would just embolden the radicals to do more crazy stuff in the future.

I can't get behind this "blame the victim" mentality you're espousing. Do we blame a raped woman for being out alone at night or dressing provocatively? Of course not. So why should we blame the victims in this case?

It's the perpetrators who were 100 percent at fault in this case. Deadly force is a vast overreaction to something as silly as a cartoon, and the criminals were rightly shot dead in order to protect the innocent.

Giving their cause any sense of legitimacy would, in my opinion, be a mistake.

If Muslims wanted to peacefully protest the cartoon event by picketing, raising public awareness, or arranging a boycott of some sort, you would have a point. However, when you storm the meeting with guns drawn, you and your cause lose legitimacy in the eyes of the public, and your likelihood of obtaining any conciliation decreases.

Which isn't exactly what happened, not for lack of trying. The event was already over, and the incident occurred in the parking lot. But your overall point is not wrong.

Peter Grimm · May 4, 2015

Re: Two Shot at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

"A traffic officer working after-hours as security for the event and armed only with a service pistol killed both men, who were wearing body armor and carrying assault rifles, Garland Police Department spokesman Joe Harn told reporters Monday.". -CNN

Now that is a badass Texan cop right there! Garland you rock.

The Mark · May 4, 2015

Re: Two Shot at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

Fenton said:
Its supposed to be America.

Those people shouldn't have to worry about the consequences of " pissing off a bunch of Muslims ".

They SHOULD be able to express their 1st amendment rights without the fear that they'll be persecuted by those who disagree with them.

The problem isn't the people who held the event, its the people who are Religiously and ideologically committed to killing all those who disagree with them.

Its 2015 for Gods sake. Hard to believe we're even having this conversation.

It's kinda a dick move to host such an event, but the only acceptable response would be a protest outside the event, maybe some lawsuits or whatever...

Violence is not an acceptable response

Peter Grimm · May 4, 2015

Re: Two Shot at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

Here is the ISIS reaction to the shooting:

"Allahu Akbar!!!! 2 of our brothers just opened fire

If there is no check on the freedom of your speech, then let your hearts be open to the freedom of our actions."

Anyone still want to blame the victims here?

US Conservative · May 4, 2015

Re: Shooting at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

Kobie said:
"Please read books," he says, citing Wikipedia. Irony not lost.

Kobie, tell us more about how theres no such thing as Islamic culture.

Kobie · May 4, 2015

Re: Shooting at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

Fearandloathing said:
Liberal bull****.

No man shall live in threat of his life for declaring that which be believes. The only exceptions are the inevitable shouting fire in a theatre.

FFS you people love to see Jesus depicted as a clown, gay, laughing on the cross, and Christians don't blow **** up, and if they did, you would have them hunted and killed. FFS, a girl in Indiana speculates about a pizza catered gay wedding and draws death threats, and not one liberal, from the President to whatever worm is running for the job had not one comment. They tacitly approved those death threats.

Now, here you are tacitly approving and excusing mob violence to silence free speech.

What we all love about "progressive" ethics is that they are as flexible as a snake

OMFG. If Obama spent all his time apologizing to conservatives for whatever they're feeling aggrieved about this week, he'd never get anything else done.

You really think him not saying anything about Memories Pizza is "tacitly approving"?

Oh, and your "not one liberal" line is a total lie; plenty of liberals here, the ones you incessantly whine about, criticized the death threats in that case and others. And NOBODY has "tacitly approved" "mob violence to silence free speech." It's like you live on another planet.

Kobie · May 4, 2015

Re: Shooting at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

Fenton said:
That's an unfortunate and irrelevant Ad Hom reply.

We try to set the standards here a little higher than that and applaud thought out responses in context to the subject matter presented in the OP.

F&L's response was hardly "thought out," since it contained at least two blatant falsehoods.

Kobie · May 4, 2015

Re: Shooting at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

PeteEU said:
Considering that this so called voicing of an opinion was designed to create a reaction somewhere... then this is no different than the actual act committed. It is like shouting fire in a crowded theatre and people getting trampled to death.. you are still responsible for the trampling even though you have your "free speech" to shout fire.

Yeah, this is basically wrong on every conceivable level.

PeteEU · May 4, 2015

Re: Shooting at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

11Bravo said:
No, that is not true at all. Shouting "fire" in a movie theater is a hazard to the public because it creates panic. Drawing a picture of a mythical character is not a public hazard. It's just offensive to ONE religious cult.

One religious cult who will commit horrible acts to avenge such an offence... hence it is a freaking given that if you do that offence then there is a damn good chance that someone will get hurt.

Anglo-scot · May 4, 2015

Re: Two Shot at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

Higgins86 said:
But our middle east interventions don't explain why Native born Muslims are becoming more fanatic. It wasn't a war on Islam it was a war on terror, a war which is still going on and is also being fought by other Islamic countries.

It's a big reason though. Even if Muslims are killing each other in the Middle East, once we in the West get involved, the loyalties of Muslims living in the West shift more towards their fellow Muslims in the Middle East. Ghettoisation and online radicalisation are ever greater problems too.

Peter Grimm · May 4, 2015

Re: Shooting at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

PeteEU said:
One religious cult who will commit horrible acts to avenge such an offence... hence it is a freaking given that if you do that offence then there is a damn good chance that someone will get hurt.

And whose fault is that?

Anglo-scot · May 4, 2015

Re: Shooting at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

Peter Grimm said:
I doubt we hear anything from Obama, as recognition of their demented cause would just embolden the radicals to do more crazy stuff in the future.

I can't get behind this "blame the victim" mentality you're espousing. Do we blame a raped woman for being out alone at night or dressing provocatively? Of course not. So why should we blame the victims in this case?

It's the perpetrators who were 100 percent at fault in this case. Deadly force is a vast overreaction to something as silly as a cartoon, and the criminals were rightly shot dead in order to protect the innocent.

Giving their cause any sense of legitimacy would, in my opinion, be a mistake.

If Muslims wanted to peacefully protest the cartoon event by picketing, raising public awareness, or arranging a boycott of some sort, you would have a point. However, when you storm the meeting with guns drawn, you and your cause lose legitimacy in the eyes of the public, and your likelihood of obtaining any conciliation decreases.

It's not a question of blame one party and not the other, or even apportioning blame on a % basis. If something goes wrong between people, you have to look at the behaviour of both sides to learn lessons. Do you think that there are any lessons which this defence group can learn from this incident, if they are willing to examine their motives and actions?

nota bene · May 4, 2015

Re: Two Shot at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

Zyphlin said:
The fact that you feel a group of people getting together to draw pictures of a religious figure is similar to sticking a metal object into a toaster in terms of risk, potential for harm, and danger to me speaks FAR MORE about those reacting to the event then it tells me about the people doing it.

I'd think the fact that there's seemingly a large enough contingent of a particular religion that is so extremist in nature that drawing a religious figure is equivelent in danger to jabbing metal into electrical objects is mindbogglingly problematic.

It's not just problematic; it's disturbing.

j-mac · May 4, 2015

Re: Shooting at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

PeteEU said:
One religious cult who will commit horrible acts to avenge such an offence... hence it is a freaking given that if you do that offence then there is a damn good chance that someone will get hurt.

So, all one has to do in the PeteEU world to stifle free speech is threaten violence and we should all hold our tongue....Great...Terror score.

Somerville · May 4, 2015

Re: Shooting at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

Peter Grimm said:
America has hundreds of years of experience when it comes to mass immigration. Our country is primarily made up of immigrants with all different backgrounds and stories.

The way it has worked best in the past, and the way it will work this time, is that the immigrants are the ones who need to conform to our values and beliefs, not the other way around. You're welcome to come to the land of opportunity and you're free to pursue the best life for yourself, but don't expect anyone else to learn about your culture or capitulate to you. You're in Anerica, start acting like an American.

This formula has worked for generations, no reason to deviate from it now.

Freedom of speech is not something we're going to willingly give up, especially to assuage a group of radicals who generally are distrusted to begin with.

They're gonna have to learn to hack it just like every other generation of immigrants before them. And in the Wild West, if you come on with your guns drawn, the lawmen might just shoot you down. Lesson learned and score 1 for the good guys.

Do you have any idea just how many generations it took for some immigrants to be assimilated into what you know as "American culture"?

j-mac · May 4, 2015

Re: Shooting at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

Anglo-scot said:
It's not a question of blame one party and not the other, or even apportioning blame on a % basis. If something goes wrong between people, you have to look at the behaviour of both sides to learn lessons. Do you think that there are any lessons which this defence group can learn from this incident, if they are willing to examine their motives and actions?

Yes, hold their events in Texas...It ain't Paris....

VanceMack · May 4, 2015

Re: Two Shot at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

Higgins86 said:
It is problematic and until we can get on top of this home grown Islamic extremism events like these will continue to be dangerous to those participating and those forced to protect the participants.

How do you propose to get on top of this home grown Ismlamic extremisim...and in the meantime do you suggest people just hide in their baseme.......

Hey....WAIT a second....

I thought Islamic terrorism in the US wasnt something people should worry about? I thought every time its been brought up its been tea party conservative whack job types overreacting?

Peter Grimm · May 4, 2015

Re: Shooting at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

Anglo-scot said:
It's not a question of blame one party and not the other, or even apportioning blame on a % basis. If something goes wrong between people, you have to look at the behaviour of both sides to learn lessons. Do you think that there are any lessons which this defence group can learn from this incident, if they are willing to examine their motives and actions?

My family lives in Garland Texas. I was there last night when the shootings occurred.

I was not at the cartoon event, because personally I think it's childish and pointless, and I have no reason to spend my Sunday night at what essentially amounts to a hate rally.

That said, this group had every right in the world to hold their event, and like any peaceful assembly, they have the right of expectation that they won't be physically harmed.

While I don't agree with the cartoonists, I put the fault completely on the shoulders of the Muslim extremists who overreacted big time to a harmless rally.

I value my freedom of speech and I do not want to see us as a society start to erode those freedoms to capitulate to the whims of a few nut bags with assault rifles.

I think the Garland policeman who shot the suspects is a hero and a badass and a hell of a shot. I'm thankful we have officers like that who are there to defend our freedoms, even if in this case, it's the freedom of people to do something idiotic.

At the end of the day, neither of the two suspects were from Texas, nor was the event organizer nor the keynote speaker. This whole thing was an unwelcomed intrusion in some respects, but at least it was a Texan, the officer, who put an end to it.

j-mac · May 4, 2015

Re: Shooting at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

Somerville said:
Do you have any idea just how many generations it took for some immigrants to be assimilated into what you know as "American culture"?

Well, when the immigrants respected, and appreciated this country, and what it offers, not long, usually within a generation.

Peter Grimm · May 4, 2015

Re: Shooting at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

Somerville said:
Do you have any idea just how many generations it took for some immigrants to be assimilated into what you know as "American culture"?

2, sometimes 3 generations.

Somerville · May 4, 2015

Re: Two Shot at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

Peter Grimm said:
Nobody "stepped in" and stopped the Florida pastor from burning copies of the Quran, he had a change of heart and decided not to proceed with it on his own.

You might wish to do a bit of reading before posting things that aren't true.

Koran-burning preacher

He ended up not burning any copies of the Koran in 2010, but the following year, he was at it again, holding a mock trial in which he accused Islam of evil and appointing himself as judge. The proceedings were held at Dove Outreach, in worship space that doubled as a warehouse for an e-Bay furniture business Jones ran on the side. This time a Koran was burned, sparking rioting in Afghanistan that reportedly left 20 dead, including several U.N. workers. Soon after that, an Iranian cleric called for Jones’s execution, the Southern Poverty Law Center and the Anti-Defamation League added him to their watch lists of hate groups, and Jones bought a gun for self-protection and then another.

What he didn’t do: shrink from sight. In 2013, sheriff’s deputies in Polk County, Fla., pulled him over in a truck towing a smoker-style barbecue grill that was filled with hundreds of kerosene-soaked copies of the Koran. He was charged with the unlawful conveyance of fuel, but this time, instead of outrage and pandemonium, the reaction was more of a shrug.

Two Shot at Muhammad Art Exhibit [W:439, 529, 978, 1489]

Higgins86

Peter Grimm

Apocalypse

DEATH TO ANTARCTICA!!!

Kobie

Kobie

Peter Grimm

The Mark

Sporadic insanity normal.

Peter Grimm

US Conservative

Kobie

Kobie

Kobie

PeteEU

Anglo-scot

Well-known member

Peter Grimm

Anglo-scot

Well-known member

nota bene

j-mac

Somerville

j-mac

VanceMack

Less like the tiger...more like the lion.

Peter Grimm

j-mac

Peter Grimm

Somerville

Two Shot at Muhammad Art Exhibit [W:439, 529, 978, 1489]

DEATH TO ANTARCTICA!!!

Sporadic insanity normal.

Well-known member

Well-known member

Less like the tiger...more like the lion.

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