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Turkey and the EU

FreshlyMinted

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Hopefully this hasn't been beat to death. From what I understand, Turkey is not allowed entree into the EU because people don't think they would "fit". Whether that is economically speaking, ideologically speaking or whatever. What I want to know is if it is largely semantic. Anyone who has a good idea about it, if there were a new International Union called say... the Mediterranean Union that included all of the countries of the EU, would Turkey still be barred access? How about Morocco?
 
Hopefully this hasn't been beat to death. From what I understand, Turkey is not allowed entree into the EU because people don't think they would "fit". Whether that is economically speaking, ideologically speaking or whatever. What I want to know is if it is largely semantic. Anyone who has a good idea about it, if there were a new International Union called say... the Mediterranean Union that included all of the countries of the EU, would Turkey still be barred access? How about Morocco?

In my opinion, there is a lot of racism which is the main problem with Turkey being admitted to the EU. Turkey has been working hard to meet EU standards (the Copenhagen Criteria), but countries like France and Austria still oppose their entry.
 
I get that people are being discriminatory, but I always thought it was a matter of national or regional pride and a sort of exclusiveness.

Just like all of the NATO countries are, indeed located at least relatively close to the North Atlantic, I feel that many Europeans might be chagrined because the EU is supposed to represent countries that are, in fact European.

Just like if there were to be a North American treaty, I would not be in favor of Japan joining simply because I don't think they represent the cultural and ideological essence of North America. Although I would be fine if there were a Cross Pacific Treaty with Japan and the more "Pacific" countries, because the name represents the essence of an ideal that we all share, namely a certain "Pacificness"
 
I get that people are being discriminatory, but I always thought it was a matter of national or regional pride and a sort of exclusiveness.

Just like all of the NATO countries are, indeed located at least relatively close to the North Atlantic, I feel that many Europeans might be chagrined because the EU is supposed to represent countries that are, in fact European.

Just like if there were to be a North American treaty, I would not be in favor of Japan joining simply because I don't think they represent the cultural and ideological essence of North America. Although I would be fine if there were a Cross Pacific Treaty with Japan and the more "Pacific" countries, because the name represents the essence of an ideal that we all share, namely a certain "Pacificness"

I think it basically comes down to racism/anti-Islam sentiment. It could be debated whether or not Turkey is "European". But I'm not going to get into that.
 
It depends.

If the EU is just an economical union, then why not.

But if the EU is about values like the Human Rights, Democracy or Equality of men and women, then why would we accept a country who violates those principles every day (just look at what happens to the Kurds)?

Furthermore, there is a common thing between all the countries that are part of the Union: judeo-christian heritage. The Turkish society does not have that heritage.
 
Hopefully this hasn't been beat to death. From what I understand, Turkey is not allowed entree into the EU because people don't think they would "fit". Whether that is economically speaking, ideologically speaking or whatever. What I want to know is if it is largely semantic. Anyone who has a good idea about it, if there were a new International Union called say... the Mediterranean Union that included all of the countries of the EU, would Turkey still be barred access? How about Morocco?
Turkey won't become a member of the EU while one fact remains
Turkey doesn't recognize Cyprus. Cyprus is an EU member.
 
It depends.

If the EU is just an economical union, then why not.

But if the EU is about values like the Human Rights, Democracy or Equality of men and women, then why would we accept a country who violates those principles every day (just look at what happens to the Kurds)?

Furthermore, there is a common thing between all the countries that are part of the Union: judeo-christian heritage. The Turkish society does not have that heritage.

Like I said, Turkey has been working hard to meet EU criteria. If they can show they can meet the criteria, why not let them join? Re: the difference argument, Britain was very different from the continental European countries, yet they were allowed to join. I don't think that argument holds much water.
 
Turkey won't become a member of the EU while one fact remains
Turkey doesn't recognize Cyprus. Cyprus is an EU member.

Yes, that is a major stumbling block. They will need to get that sorted out.
 
Turkey won't become a member of the EU while one fact remains
Turkey doesn't recognize Cyprus. Cyprus is an EU member.

Bingo... you win the kewpie doll.


IMO it has nothing to do with discrimination, nor anti-Islamic feelings - it has to do with Greece and Cyprus and it always has. Possible a little sprinkle of Kurd issues on top of it, but mostly Cyprus.
 
Turkey won't become a member of the EU while one fact remains
Turkey doesn't recognize Cyprus. Cyprus is an EU member.

What I'm saying though, is if there were such a thing as a Mediterranean Union then it would be ideologically and culturally different from the EU because it would represent the more diverse Mediterranean nations.

Assuming that that is the case, would Turkey be allowed to join? Or still no because they don't recognize another Mediterranean state?
 
What I'm saying though, is if there were such a thing as a Mediterranean Union then it would be ideologically and culturally different from the EU because it would represent the more diverse Mediterranean nations.

Assuming that that is the case, would Turkey be allowed to join? Or still no because they don't recognize another Mediterranean state?

Ok, you are American. Right.
Currently Turkey can not enter the Union as it doesn't recognize Cyprus. That would be equivelant to Puerto Rico trying to enter the US as a 51st state while refusing to recognize Nevada.
If there was a mediterranean union Turkey could still not enter it if Cyprus was already a member. Likewise Cyprus couldn't enter it if Turkey was a member.
In the eighties Northern Ireland couldn't become a member because technically the Republic of Ireland laid claim to it in our Constitution despite it having it's own government, it's own currency, laws etc.
 
Like I said, Turkey has been working hard to meet EU criteria. If they can show they can meet the criteria, why not let them join?

They don't meet these criteria

Re: the difference argument, Britain was very different from the continental European countries, yet they were allowed to join. I don't think that argument holds much water.

UK shares our values, our culture. Turkey doesn't. Religion is a major element, as it is central in a culture.
 
UK shares our values, our culture.

Well that's convenient, when many British people don't even view themselves as "European". They have Common Law, whereas most European countries are based on some form of Civil Law. The UK has refused to adopt the Euro, and France was initially opposed to letting them join. You're just saying they share your values and culture because it's convenient.

Admit it, you just don't want Turkey to join because you don't like them.
 
Well that's convenient, when many British people don't even view themselves as "European". They have Common Law, whereas most European countries are based on some form of Civil Law. The UK has refused to adopt the Euro, and France was initially opposed to letting them join. You're just saying they share your values and culture because it's convenient.

Admit it, you just don't want Turkey to join because you don't like them.

How is Euro an important part of culture? That's irrelevant, every European country had its own currency. Same for France refusing to let them enter, that's not a factor.

As for common law, it's true that it is a different system.

But we have lots of common points, there have always been lots of exchanges (commercial & cultural) between UK and continental Europe.
- Their royal family is German,
- they speak a Germanic dialect,
- we're both christians,
- we've got a common history (enlightment, religion wars, colonization of the new world, industrial age in the XIXth century...)

UK's culture could not be different from ours, since they're our cousins, they're the offspring of European tribes/nations like the celts, the angles, the saxons, the vikings, the normans, and later French and Flemish immigrants...how could they be different?

On the contrary the Turks come from the steppes of Central Asia. Their hinterland is Central Asia, their culture is common with that of the other Turkish people, like those who inhabit Turkmenistan or Uzbekistan. They've got a different language, a different religion, different customs.

The only "European" elements in Turkey are the Greek ruins along the coasts and the fact that they invaded and occupied the Balkans until the XIXth century, until the Balkanic peoples revolted. But if that is a factor, then Turkey is as African or Asian as European since their empire extended from Algeria to Yemen.
 
Well that's convenient, when many British people don't even view themselves as "European". They have Common Law, whereas most European countries are based on some form of Civil Law. The UK has refused to adopt the Euro, and France was initially opposed to letting them join. You're just saying they share your values and culture because it's convenient.

Admit it, you just don't want Turkey to join because you don't like them.

Well the Cyprus issue is a big part of it but aside from that there is the fact that Turkey is still undergoing a process of democratization. The Army still has alot of influence and they are still debating whether to legalize the use of Kurdish names. Broadcasting in Kurdish, although tolerated, is still technically illegal.

If there is any ulterior motive involved its that France and Germany dont want E.U expansion and the UK does, this because France and Germany want a more centralized union, whereas the UK is more eurosceptic. This would explain why the UK supports Turkeys entry into the E.U and France and Germany dont. Although naturally Cyprus is the main source of opposition.
 
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How is Euro an important part of culture? That's irrelevant, every European country had its own currency. Same for France refusing to let them enter, that's not a factor.

As for common law, it's true that it is a different system.

But we have lots of common points, there have always been lots of exchanges (commercial & cultural) between UK and continental Europe.
- Their royal family is German,
- they speak a Germanic dialect,
- we're both christians,
- we've got a common history (enlightment, religion wars, colonization of the new world, industrial age in the XIXth century...)

UK's culture could not be different from ours, since they're our cousins, they're the offspring of European tribes/nations like the celts, the angles, the saxons, the vikings, the normans, and later French and Flemish immigrants...how could they be different?

Yeah and Turkey has been interacting and sharing culture with Europe for centuries.

On the contrary the Turks come from the steppes of Central Asia. Their hinterland is Central Asia, their culture is common with that of the other Turkish people, like those who inhabit Turkmenistan or Uzbekistan. They've got a different language, a different religion, different customs.

Er, all the European countries have different languages and customs! All of them. The only common factor you can correctly cite is religion. Even that is divided along sectarian lines in Europe.

The only "European" elements in Turkey are the Greek ruins along the coasts and the fact that they invaded and occupied the Balkans until the XIXth century, until the Balkanic peoples revolted. But if that is a factor, then Turkey is as African or Asian as European since their empire extended from Algeria to Yemen.

Turkey is on the edge of Europe, just as Britain is. If you use the Empire argument, then Britain is as much North American, or Indian as it is European. France is North African...etc. :roll:
 
Well the Cyprus issue is a big part of it but aside from that there is the fact that Turkey is still undergoing a process of democratization. The Army still has alot of influence and they are still debating whether to legalize the use of Kurdish names. Broadcasting in Kurdish, although tolerated, is still technically illegal.

Well if they joined the EU, they would be influenced to move further in democratic and tolerant directions. Allowing the Turks the possibility of entry is the biggest motivator to get them to change their ways.

If there is any ulterior motive involved its that France and Germany dont want E.U expansion and the UK does, this because France and Germany want a more centralized union, whereas the UK is more eurosceptic. This would explain why the UK supports Turkeys entry into the E.U and France and Germany dont. Although naturally Cyprus is the main source of opposition.

That's a good point, France and Germany are always afraid of allowing other big players in, since they don't want to lose their position of power in the EU.
 
Well if they joined the EU, they would be influenced to move further in democratic and tolerant directions. Allowing the Turks the possibility of entry is the biggest motivator to get them to change their ways.

And if you let Turkey into the union before it democratizes then you remove this insensitive. The point is for Turkey to democratize before it enters the E.U not after. That said the record of many Western European states isn't perfect either.
 
Yeah and Turkey has been interacting and sharing culture with Europe for centuries.

I don't see any Turkish influence in Europe. There are no "turkish-style" buildings anywhere in Europe. On the contrary, architectural movements like roman or gothic architecture are present everywhere.

Er, all the European countries have different languages and customs!

There are language families. In Europe, languages are either Latin or Germanic, which themselves are part of the indo-european language family.

The Turkish language has nothing to do with these languages, it's not indo-european, it is totally different. In fact it is an Altaic language, which makes Turkish closer to Japanese and Korean than to Greek or Italian. Which is logical, since they come from central Asia.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9a/Altaic_family2.svg



Turkey is on the edge of Europe, just as Britain is. If you use the Empire argument, then Britain is as much North American, or Indian as it is European. France is North African...etc. :roll:

I said the Empire argument was not a valid one, since Turkey would be as African as European.
 
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And if you let Turkey into the union before it democratizes then you remove this insensitive. The point is for Turkey to democratize before it enters the E.U not after. That said the record of many Western European states isn't perfect either.

Well Turkey is democratic, the EU just needs to insure that the army doesn't stick it's nose in again. Easier said than done I'm afraid.
 
Ok, you are American. Right.
Currently Turkey can not enter the Union as it doesn't recognize Cyprus. That would be equivelant to Puerto Rico trying to enter the US as a 51st state while refusing to recognize Nevada.
If there was a mediterranean union Turkey could still not enter it if Cyprus was already a member. Likewise Cyprus couldn't enter it if Turkey was a member.
In the eighties Northern Ireland couldn't become a member because technically the Republic of Ireland laid claim to it in our Constitution despite it having it's own government, it's own currency, laws etc.

Actually, this isn't even half of the problem. Most of the opposition against that country's entrance had rarely to do with their lack of recognition of Cyprus (they'd be forced to recognize it whether they liked it or not once they got in), but that most of the opposition against them had nothing to do with Cyprus.

In France it has proven to be, suddenly, feeling sorry for the Armenians.
U.S. genocide move reopens old wounds in Turkey | Reuters

It's rather politically convenient to, suddenly, pick up a history book and start reading about it, especially since it makes your opponent look bad.

Alvin, you know full well that when there are protests against Turkey's entrance into the EU, you don't have people walking around, beating their chests and howling that Cyprus and Turkey are no longer BFF. It's because most in the EU are scared crapless that the darkies will come over and rape them (or take their jobs, just like the Poles :roll: .)
 
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I don't see any Turkish influence in Europe. There are no "turkish-style" buildings anywhere in Europe. On the contrary, architectural movements like roman or gothic architecture are present everywhere.
Oh please, really? No trade? No exchanges from Islam at all?
There are language families. In Europe, languages are either Latin or Germanic, which themselves are part of the indo-european language family.

The Turkish language has nothing to do with these languages, it's not indo-european, it is totally different. In fact it is an Altaic language, which makes Turkish closer to Japanese and Korean than to Greek or Italian. Which is logical, since they come from central Asia.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9a/Altaic_family2.svg
Agent's point stands.

Languages aside, Europe has its own quirky cultural differences. Hell, villages can be night and day while they are only kilometers apart.
I said the Empire argument was not a valid one, since Turkey would be as African as European.
They have a large city on the European continent, its population views itself as very European (many study and work in Europe and tourists go to Turkey all the time), it's secular and seeks to become increasingly more modern.

At some point, after so many exchanges, you have to look at each other and realize that the differences between you and the Turks are quite minor.
 
Actually, this isn't even half of the problem. Most of the opposition against that country's entrance had rarely to do with their lack of recognition of Cyprus (they'd be forced to recognize it whether they liked it or not once they got in), but that most of the opposition against them had nothing to do with Cyprus.
They still refuse to recognize Cyprus even though they want entrance.
And BTW they don't play nice with Greece (another EU member)

You can't "force" a country to do anything once it's entered the Union.
 
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