• Please read the Announcement concerning missing posts from 10/8/25-10/15/25.
  • This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Trying to understand gun rights supporters...

I never said that guns determine who wins elections.

The point is that political power grows from the barrel of a gun. Rights don't magically enforce themselves. We only have the rights that we have the ability to defend, and therefore guns play a very important role in the balance of power between the government and the people. For example, in a society in which the people were completely disarmed, the people would have a reduced ability to defend their rights against government oppression.

This was the comment from Turtle that I replied to

Indeed, one of the reasons I advocate people being well armed is in case people who have your sort of views on our rights get too much power

He seems to be more than hinting at having his weapons as some sort of force to use on people who may disagree with him and when he loses the election or a public policy debate he wants guns to possible be employed to win when votes or debate could not carry the day.
 
I would like to understand people that are scared of guns. Do they honestly believe guns kill people? If they do, do they also believe that spoons make you fat? Can anyone ban pencils? I personally hold it accountable for misspelling words.
 
Last edited:
This was the comment from Turtle that I replied to

He seems to be more than hinting at having his weapons as some sort of force to use on people who may disagree with him and when he loses the election or a public policy debate he wants guns to possible be employed to win when votes or debate could not carry the day.

I took it to mean that he saw guns as a necessary tool in defending one's rights from people who have your sort of views.
 
I took it to mean that he saw guns as a necessary tool in defending one's rights from people who have your sort of views.

I have no idea what you mean when you say "from people who have your sort of views".

I am no physical threat to Turtle nor anyone else. My views or my opinions are no threat to anyone that requires the force of arms to defeat them. He nor you nor anyone does not need guns to protect them from my views.
 
Last edited:
I have no idea what you mean when you say "from people who have your sort of views".

I am no physical threat to Turtle nor anyone else. He nor you nor anyone does not need guns to protect them from my views.



Government is not reason, is it not persuasion --- it is raw naked force.

If someone seeks to enshrine their views as legislation, they are using the force of government to threaten their neighbors into compliance.


Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for supper. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.
 
I have no idea what you mean when you say "from people who have your sort of views".

I am no physical threat to Turtle nor anyone else. He nor you nor anyone does not need guns to protect them from my views.

Well I'm very happy to hear that, but the world is filled with people whose intentions are not so benign.

You are well aware that rights only exist for those who have the political power to defend them. And since political power grows from the barrel of a gun, being armed is absolutely essential to protecting one's rights.
 
You depend on us for your defense. Why would you even bother! DUH! If my country had such an arrangement, I'm sure we would choose impotence too~!


Canada has its own military. Having known Canadian servicemen, I would say their military is very competent and able.


Yes it is small compared to ours, but then again so is almost everyone's military compared to ours. We do that on purpose you know.

Who is going to invade Canada anyway?
 
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for supper. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.

Good quote. I may have to steal it for my sig...
 
Canada has its own military. Having known Canadian servicemen, I would say their military is very competent and able.


Yes it is small compared to ours, but then again so is almost everyone's military compared to ours. We do that on purpose you know.

Who is going to invade Canada anyway?


:lamo

Likely no one in the sense you used the term 'invade'. But there is some danger.

Archived-Articles: Sleeper Cells in the United States and Canada

And I don't really think their military is adequate to take on the queen should they even want to. Which they don't. I have not forgotten that Canada went with us to Iraq. Staying in our good graces, dontchaknow!

Anyway, I have a WONDERFUL grandson who is half Canuck! So, I can't really fault them for much~!

banners2.jpg


My Canuck SIL gets a hearty welcome when he visits! And my neighbors even tolerate this! LOL
 
Last edited:
Government is not reason, is it not persuasion --- it is raw naked force.

If someone seeks to enshrine their views as legislation, they are using the force of government to threaten their neighbors into compliance.


Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for supper. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.

In some nations, you description may be more accurate than it is false. In the USA, it is more false than it is accurate.

You ignore the role of the people - hundreds of millions of citizens - who supply the government with the legitimacy to exercise force and power on behalf of the will of the people. And when you leave that out and simply jump several places to the power government has - you do truth a great disservice.
 
Good quote. I may have to steal it for my sig...

You guys on the right are so much better coming up with great sounding but hollow cliches than we are on the progressive side. ;):roll:
 
Well I'm very happy to hear that, but the world is filled with people whose intentions are not so benign.

You are well aware that rights only exist for those who have the political power to defend them. And since political power grows from the barrel of a gun, being armed is absolutely essential to protecting one's rights.

It is not 1776 anymore. The political power of the USA growing from revolution is long long long gone into the dustbin of history. To pretend otherwise is simply an exercise in denial.
 
Sigh.


Canada has 68,000 active duty personnel, and up to 45,000 Reservists in all categories, totalling 113,000 potential personnel.

The RCN has 33 warships and submarines.

The Royal Canadian Air Force has approximately 391 aircraft in service, which is the sixth largest air force in the Americas

The Canadian Army has 2,700 armored fighting vehicles of various sorts.

Canada spends 22 billion a year on its military, the 14th largest expenditure in the world, and is currently involved in a 20 year upgrade plan.

The Canadian Armed Forces are equipped with modern weapons, vehicles and 21st century technology, and are a formidable fighting force.



True, their military is not really comparable in overall power to the US armed forces... but Canada isn't trying to be the world's policeman, and they don't have as many enemies as we do, AND their geography makes them fairly safe from invasion by anyone but.... well, us.
 
You guys on the right are so much better coming up with great sounding but hollow cliches than we are on the progressive side. ;):roll:


If I wanted to be shallow and petty, like you, I could counter that you on the Left are far better at ignoring facts and truth ...



It is not 1776 anymore. The political power of the USA growing from revolution is long long long gone into the dustbin of history. To pretend otherwise is simply an exercise in denial.


That isn't precisely what he, or I, said. We said political power comes from force. It does. Denying this is like denying the existence of gravity.

Simple exercise: Take away the govenrment's power to use force. Remove from it all authority and means to use force: no military, no police, no armed personnel whatsoever.

Take a wild guess how long that government will last...

(Cheat sheet: the answer to Question 1 is "Not long at all".)
 
You depend on us for your defense. Why would you even bother! DUH! If my country had such an arrangement, I'm sure we would choose impotence too~!

I am the first one to admit that Canada DOES depend on the United States for its defense, and we have for as long as I've been around and many years before that as well. Canadians would be deluding themselves to suggest otherwise. (If any Canadians on here doubt that, read about the history of NORAD). It's called an "alliance", and for our part we are 1/10th the size (ie-population) of the United States, so of course the alliance will be an uneven partnership.

On our side, Canada has long benefited by the fact that we are strategically protect by a nuclear and conventional deterrent that has, let's be honest, been paid for by American taxpayers. We have a small conventional force as well but, with all due respect to our own Canadian forces, it is minute in comparison with American forces. (If I'm not mistaken, ONE American aircraft carrier has more tonnage than the entire Canadian navy... or at least pretty close to that!)

However, I would suggest that the American side benefits as well. Strategically, for as long as living memory can attest, America has not had the slightest strategic worry of a military force threat from its long northern land border. Canada (sorry to be so blunt, Canadians!) is the world's largest military buffer zone! I would suggest that Canada being completely peaceful with respect to the United States is a very good strategic thing for the U.S. Take a look at where Southern Ontario is with respect to the United States. It dips down awfully deeply into the middle of the American area of the continent (the southern tip of Ontario is at almost the same latitude as the northern tip of California). A hostile force in Southern Ontario could never be strategically accepted by the United States... WAY too close to New York, Washington and Chicago, etc. Canada's solid military alliance with the United States means the United States gets all the strategic value of the 'buffer' effect, without ever having to go to the expense, effort, and cost in blood of a war and long-term occupation of a neighbor.

Furthermore, in terms of the unevenness of the expenditure aspect, let me suggest that the United States is just as happy with it that way. Suppose, hypothetically, Canada decided it wanted to become a nuclear weapons power. How would the Pentagon feel about that? Even if we said it was "strictly to the benefit of doing our part in the alliance", I don't for a minute believe that U.S. strategists would see a foreign nuclear missile force based half-way between Milwaukee and Boston as a good thing (and yes, draw a line between Milwaukee and Boston, and the midpoint is in Canadian territory!) Instead, how about a massive land mass that is completely allied militarily with the U.S. (ie- would not permit Chinese or Russian military forces on its territory)? Zero military threat, fairly consistent military cooperation, no need think about potential threats. Strategically, that must have some appeal.

From a geo-strategic point of view, Canadian territory IS effectively American territory, and that's long been the case (I would suggest that the Manhattan Project was one of the most important U.S. strategic projects of the 20th century... two of the project's sites (Chalk River and Trail) were on Canadian territory). But again, I think that's mutually-beneficial, and neither nation has any real geopolitical interest in changing that fact.

I've said I absolutely oppose Canada's constitutional relationship with Britain, but I have no problem with our military relationship with the U.S. You might refer to it as "impotence". I call it "alliance". And one that both sides seem happy to maintain.
 
Last edited:
In some nations, you description may be more accurate than it is false. In the USA, it is more false than it is accurate.

You ignore the role of the people - hundreds of millions of citizens - who supply the government with the legitimacy to exercise force and power on behalf of the will of the people. And when you leave that out and simply jump several places to the power government has - you do truth a great disservice.


Heh.

Over time, governments acquire a patina of legitimacy and a veneer of civilization over their fundamental nature... but their fundamental nature remains that of a body that uses force and threat of force to gain compliance.

If you don't believe me, try the following:

Accumulate enough unpaid parking tickets that a judge issues a bench warrant for your arrest. (Yes this happens.)
When the cops come to take you in, decline to accompany them. Firmly.

Watch how fast they resort to force. :)
 
I am the first one to admit that Canada DOES depend on the United States for its defense, and we have for as long as I've been around and many years before that as well. Canadians would be deluding themselves to suggest otherwise. (If any Canadians on here doubt that, read about the history of NORAD). It's called an "alliance", and for our part we are 1/10th the size (ie-population) of the United States, so of course the alliance will be an uneven partnership.

On our side, Canada has long benefited by the fact that we are strategically protect by a nuclear and conventional deterrent that has, let's be honest, been paid for by American taxpayers. We have a small conventional force as well but, with all due respect to our own Canadian forces, it is minute in comparison with American forces.

However, I would suggest that the American side benefits as well. Strategically, for as long as living memory can attest, America has not had the slightest strategic worry of a military force threat from its long northern land border. Canada (sorry to be so blunt, Canadians!) is the world's largest military buffer zone! I would suggest that Canada being completely peaceful with respect to the United States is a very good strategic thing for the U.S. Take a look at where Southern Ontario is with respect to the United States. It dips down awfully deeply into the middle of the American area of the continent (the southern tip of Ontario is at almost the same latitude as the northern tip of California). A hostile force in Southern Ontario could never be strategically accepted by the United States... WAY too close to New York, Washington and Chicago, etc. Canada's solid military alliance with the United States means the United States gets all the strategic value of the 'buffer' effect, without ever having to go to the expense, effort, and cost in blood of a war and long-term occupation of a neighbor.

Furthermore, in terms of the unevenness of the expenditure aspect, let me suggest that the United States is just as happy with it that way. Suppose, hypothetically, Canada decided it wanted to become a nuclear weapons power. How would the Pentagon feel about that? Even if we said it was "strictly to the benefit of doing our part in the alliance", I don't for a minute believe that U.S. strategists would see a foreign nuclear missile force based half-way between Milwaukee and Boston as a good thing (and yes, draw a line between Milwaukee and Boston, and the midpoint is in Canadian territory!) Instead, how about a massive land mass that is completely allied militarily with the U.S. (ie- would not permit Chinese or Russian military forces on its territory)? Zero military threat, fairly consistent military cooperation, no need think about potential threats. Strategically, that must have some appeal.

From a geo-strategic point of view, Canadian territory IS effectively American territory, and that's long been the case (I would suggest that the Manhattan Project was one of the most important U.S. strategic projects of the 20th century... two of the project's sites (Chalk River and Trail) were on Canadian territory). But again, I think that's mutually-beneficial, and neither nation has any real geopolitical interest in changing that fact.

I've said I absolutely oppose Canada's constitutional relationship with Britain, but I have no problem with our military relationship with the U.S. You might refer to it as "impotence". I call it "alliance". And one that both sides seem happy to maintain.


Naysayers aside, rest assured that many Americans appreciate having a stable, peaceable, and reliable ally and friend to our north. We both benefit from this alliance and most of us have no wish to disparage our northern cousins.
 
It is not 1776 anymore. The political power of the USA growing from revolution is long long long gone into the dustbin of history. To pretend otherwise is simply an exercise in denial.

The fundamental laws of politics apply now just as they did in 1776 and 76 BC. You know as well as I do that rights don't come out of thin air. They are won through political power. And political power grows from the barrel of a gun. Without being ultimately able to win one's rights through force of arms, one simply has no rights. Any attempts by the government to disarm the populace should be looked upon with suspicion by a people who wish to retain their rights.
 
True, their military is not really comparable in overall power to the US armed forces... but Canada isn't trying to be the world's policeman, and they don't have as many enemies as we do, AND their geography makes them fairly safe from invasion by anyone but.... well, us.

I remember in university (in the 80's) there was a professor who was convinced that the United States had an imminent plan for invading and holding Canada. He based it on the location of Fort Drum in upstate New York, which he said was intended as a launching point for an invading force (a force sent just 200 miles northward from Fort Drum would effectively divide Canada in half, with all of our major rail and highway connections between the two halves severed). He got a lot of media attention for a short time... when people were able to finally stop laughing at the idea, the only serious response was, "What the hell would the U.S. gain strategically through such an attack that it hasn't already accomplished through our peacetime relationship?"

The advantage of a close alliance is that I don't think Canada fears an American invasion any more than Oregon does. Why invade your own strategic territory? Anyway, that dude's writing did make for some interesting conversation for a while!! :)
 
You guys on the right are so much better coming up with great sounding but hollow cliches than we are on the progressive side. ;):roll:

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for supper. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."

C'mon, right wing or not... that wolf & lamb quote is pretty damn good one!! :) Conjures up a funny image... the look on the wolves' faces!! LOL. You have to be able to laugh sometimes, too!
 
I remember in university (in the 80's) there was a professor who was convinced that the United States had an imminent plan for invading and holding Canada. He based it on the location of Fort Drum in upstate New York, which he said was intended as a launching point for an invading force (a force sent just 200 miles northward from Fort Drum would effectively divide Canada in half, with all of our major rail and highway connections between the two halves severed). He got a lot of media attention for a short time... when people were able to finally stop laughing at the idea, the only serious response was, "What the hell would the U.S. gain strategically through such an attack that it hasn't already accomplished through our peacetime relationship?"

The advantage of a close alliance is that I don't think Canada fears an American invasion any more than Oregon does. Why invade your own strategic territory? Anyway, that dude's writing did make for some interesting conversation for a while!! :)

That is a pretty good laugh.

Once in a while some lackwit will say something like "We should invade and conquer Canada."

The usual reaction by the sensible majority is to look at the person a bit like this:

Implied-Facepalm.webp

If anyone bothers to reply, it is usually something along the lines of "Why the hell would we want to do THAT?"


Fortunately such idiots are rare.
 
If I wanted to be shallow and petty, like you, I could counter that you on the Left are far better at ignoring facts and truth ...

But you were not talking about facts and truth. You were riffing about wolves and lambs and then put it all together into a zippy but hollow cliche that would sound good as a punchline in as speech to the true believers.
 
Heh.

Over time, governments acquire a patina of legitimacy and a veneer of civilization over their fundamental nature... but their fundamental nature remains that of a body that uses force and threat of force to gain compliance.

If you don't believe me, try the following:

Accumulate enough unpaid parking tickets that a judge issues a bench warrant for your arrest. (Yes this happens.)
When the cops come to take you in, decline to accompany them. Firmly.

Watch how fast they resort to force. :)

Every single government on the face of the earth regardless of the fundamental ideology behind it has to employ police and military powers to protect the vast majority from those who would harm or abuse them. Your example is but part of that and says nothing about the need for anyone to keep weapons on themselves.
 
The fundamental laws of politics apply now just as they did in 1776 and 76 BC. You know as well as I do that rights don't come out of thin air. They are won through political power. And political power grows from the barrel of a gun. Without being ultimately able to win one's rights through force of arms, one simply has no rights. Any attempts by the government to disarm the populace should be looked upon with suspicion by a people who wish to retain their rights.

In some environments and in some nations and in some periods of history with extreme circumstances, yes indeed that power grows from force. And those conditions then change as the nation changes, as circumstances change and as the population changes.

Nobody want to disarm the populace. Lets please put that canard to rest. It is a strawman which only serves to fuel the fires of extremism and does a huge disservice to reality.
 
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for supper. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."

C'mon, right wing or not... that wolf & lamb quote is pretty damn good one!! :) Conjures up a funny image... the look on the wolves' faces!! LOL. You have to be able to laugh sometimes, too!

I told you the right came up with better hollow cliches than the progressives do. I give them credit where credit is due.
 
Back
Top Bottom