Trump says US cannot give every person it wants to deport a trial (1 Viewer)

[WorldWatcher]

Have you failed logic classes?

One of the "or" statements is "any invasion." We are invaded by countless individuals. It does not say "invasion" and "by a government." "Invasion" is a separate "or."

you left off part...

"or any invasion or predatory incursion is perpetrated, attempted, or threatened against the territory of the United States by any foreign nation or government,"

A gang is not a nation or a government.

WW

 

[Lord of Planar]

Just curious. Given your complain, just how many people have been terrorized by these gangs?

You make it sound like a national catastrophe, but I seldom hear any news about them.

I don't have numbers, but they are of the worse gangs in the USA.

 

[Lord of Planar]

Facilitate does not mean do as a little as possible. Facilitate does not mean do nothing. Facilitate does not mean Trump can do whatever the **** he wants and flip off the Supreme Court. Facilitate means -- within the context of Trump's oath to the Constitution -- bring Garcia back using all the tools at the President's disposal. That's what it means. Read the Fourth Circuit's opinion. The President must do his ****ing job. If he doesn't, he needs to resign. If he doesn't resign then Congress needs to remove him from office. It's not complicated.

This idea that you have that Trump doesn't have to try to bring Garcia back beyond just waiting for him to return is 100% false. How many times does a U.S. federal court have to say this before it sinks in?

It is such a flexible word. Isn't it.

It does not mean he has to be proactive.

 

[Bucky]

In the case of people being deported on the basis of AEA, they must have notice and an opportunity to be heard. This is what the Supreme Court has consistently ruled. And in the case of AEA opportunity to be heard means they can submit a Habeas Corpus petition to the Court and a judge must review it. In the case of these people in Texas, they were given only a few hours notice, rounded up, and were not being given the practical opportunity to submit a Habeas Corpus petition.

In the case of the broader argument about whether or not the AEA can be invoked by Trump:

THERE IS NO WAR. And claiming a criminal gang is a terrorist group has no factual/logical basis, and claiming "terrorist group" is at war with the U.S. has no factual/logical basis, and claiming that "terrorist group" is an actual state we are at war with has no factual/logical basis.

The Supreme Court will eventually rule AEA does not apply.

And Trump is doing all this because he wants to be a dictator and kick whoever he wants at any time.

And Trump supporters are going along with this because they hate people with brown skin and they are fascists who hate the Constitution.

What will eventually happen, whether you like it or not, is that all these people who Trump is trying to deport, will eventually get a hearing before an immigration judge, even if you hate them because they have brown skin, even if you hate them because they do not speak English.

You will not get what you want.

These "non-white" people have rights whether you like it or not.

Habeas Corpus has been suspended several times throughout our country.

 

[Lord of Planar]

It's not that simple.

Why not?

 

[Rogue Valley]

90% of the people posting/reading this thread realize what is going on. More lawlessness by our convicted felon president.

I'll also say that Trump is itching for a showdown with the US judiciary/Supreme Court. He seeks the power of a Unitary Executive

Republicans in Congress are already cowed and terrified of being primaried by Trump. If Trump can also neutralize the judiciary, ALL Constitutional guardrails are rendered ineffective.

Presidential immunity coupled with presidential pardon power yields something akin to a Putin presidency. No checks and balances. Unlimited unitarian power. Think about that.

 

[Nickyjo]

Let’s step back and look for a moment at what happened in the Abrego Garcia case:

- he came here illegally
- he obtained legal status through US government procedures, with a determination that he could not be sent back to El Salvador
- he has committed no crime, other than the misdemeanor illegal entry, which was wiped away, as it has been similarly for many thousands of other migrants
- he married and has a family, job, etc.
- he is picked up and deported, and the US is paying El Salvador to detain him
- he faces a life in prison with no guarantee of any charges being presented to him, a trial, a lawyer, a verdict or sentence, in a country that Trump’s government has said tortures it’s prisoners
- Trump claims he is helpless to do anything, as does the leader of El Salvador
- the Supreme Court disagrees with what has happened

And some Americans on this forum appear to see little or nothing wrong with all this.

“First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out, because I was not a socialist…” — Martin Niemoller 1946, speaking about the Nazis.

 

[Allan]

View attachment 67566520

against the territory of the United States by any foreign nation or government,

 

[Lord of Planar]

I’m sorry. Do you even understand the principle much less the legal definition of Due Process?

due process

www.law.cornell.edu

In my book, you are constantly failing.

The Fifth Amendment's reference to “due process” is only one of many promises of protection the Bill of Rights gives citizens against the federal government.​

---

​

The clause also promises that before depriving a citizen of life, liberty or property, the government must follow fair procedures. ​

Notice it refers to "citizens."

What am I missing now?

Please do elaborate.

 

[Allan]

What am I missing now?

Lots but let's start with the due process in the applicable law.

 

[Lord of Planar]

you left off part...

"or any invasion or predatory incursion is perpetrated, attempted, or threatened against the territory of the United States by any foreign nation or government,"

A gang is not a nation or a government.

WW

I was referring to individual who invade this nation.

Please take those liberal colored glasses of and read the text objectively.

 

[KingLeo]

Does this moronic dolt hear the words coming out of his mouth?

 

[W_Heisenberg]

What, in your world, does a habeas hearing consist of and, if they waive their right to such a hearing, has due process been fulfilled or not?

Sigh….

They were given English‑only papers just hours before being deported, so they couldn’t read or understand them.

The papers didn’t say where or by when to go to court, and they had no lawyer to help.

These people are poor. They don’t speak English. They have no idea what’s going on. They are being herded around like cattle. They are being thrown into a car and onto a bus without any warning.

This is unacceptable.

These people are human beings.

They were taken to a facility before they even knew they could ask a judge for help. Because they never got clear notice in their own language telling them how and when to file a habeas petition, THEY HAD NO REAL CHANCE TO SUBMIT ONE.

And this was done on a FRIDAY NIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!! The courts are closed! THE COURTS ARE CLOSED! WHAT COURT DO THEY FILE IT IN?!?!

They don’t know, dude.

What’s happening is that the Trump administration is making it practically impossible for these poor people to submit a habeas petition.

You’re supposed to give people time and an opportunity to figure out what’s happening so they can file their petition.

They’re just being rounded up and removed.

 

[Nickyjo]

Trump is 100% right.

We need to act now and analyze later.

Trump is on to something. He needs to be given the authority to enact his plan. If it fails, it fails. We can deal with that later.

I suppose some Germans said that when Hitler invaded Poland based on reports of the mistreatment there of ethnic Germans. And of course there is Trump precedent in his attacks on the Central Park Five. As posted, this is lynch mob reasoning.

Why do you want to be governed by a dictator?

 

[Allan]

I was referring to individual who invade this nation.

There is no law regarding an individual invading the US.

The law applies to nations and governments.

You sure are making lots of shit up.

 

[W_Heisenberg]

And the vast majority of thes epeople are just ordinary people.

75% of the people they deported in MArch HAD NO ****ING CRIMINAL RECORD

WTF!!!!!!!!

 

[WorldWatcher]

I was referring to individual who invade this nation.

Please take those liberal colored glasses of and read the text objectively.

That's the thing, your trying to cherry pick and apply the AEA to individuals.

That's NOT the power that Congress gave the President, it was only for a declared war or invasion by another government.

It was not authorize use for an "individual who invades this nation".

WW

 

[j brown's body]

I don't have numbers, but they are of the worse gangs in the USA.

And the vast majority of thes epeople are just ordinary people.

75% of the people they deported in MArch HAD NO ****ING CRIMINAL RECORD

WTF!!!!!!!!

See the problem here, Planar?

 

[Lord of Planar]

Lots but let's start with the due process in the applicable law.

You have failed to convince me. Believe it or not, I am a very reasonable person. We read the text differently.

What do you think?

Was Dorthy in The Wizard of Oz the villain? The witch is killed. The so-called good witch gives Dorthy the shoes. She is caught buy the other witch, her sister, who is the rightful heir to the shoes. She asks for the shoes back, but Dorthy does not give them to her.

The narrative is that the witch is evil, and Dorthy did nothing wrong. It seems the witch then chased Dorthy trying to get the shoes back. Just because the local townspeople and Glenda said the witch was evil, does that make it fact?

 

[Plasmaball]

They are not putting every deportee into jail. They have only jailed the ones whom they have classified as terrorists.

Secondly, people who are here illegally don't need full trials to determine if they are citizens or not. If they are not they can be deported.

Its amazing how every other president managed to give the due process that ranged in the millions

Now Trump can't do it at the same levels?
No you get due process regardless of status.

 

[The Mark]

Why not?

Because we have decided that some who are here illegally are worthy of limited protections - for example, this individual Kilmar Abrego Garcia - a court ordered that he not be deported specifically to El Salvador, because he had demonstrated to their satisfaction that he would be in danger if sent there.

Edit: Actually, wait, was he here illegally? See, this is why we need due process, there's so many conflicting statements and I lost track.

 

[Grogu]

My understanding of being seen by an immigration judge by reading 50 U.S. Code § 23 is that the judge determines the threat. Where the criminal alien is held next. Not necessary to determination deportation. It also states "after a full examination and hearing on such complaint," OK, some judicial person hears the complaint. It does not say the criminal alien gets to be heard.

You’re skipping right to applying the Alien Enemies Act. The Supreme Court said on April 7 that going forward, Alien Enemies Act detainees must receive notice "that they are subject to removal under the Act," and the notice must allow them to challenge their detention. Also, the Alien Enemies Act states that the president can only assume this authority once Congress has declared war. That never happened. So the basis of declaring use of the Act is false.

Well, the 14th starts with: "All persons born or naturalized in the United States." Illegal immigrants are neither born here or naturalized. The 5th amendment has been cited, but only this would apply: "nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;" Due process can be simple.

What do you see that I do not?

Start and stop with the 5th Amendment. That’s the point. The exact text. The first two words.

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

It’s an amendment that does just as much to limit the scope of the government over individuals in this country as much as it outlines the rights of the individuals.

What is there to hear? It is cut and dry. Illegal residents can be deported. Period.

Anybody that makes the claim you just did in reference to the law has no comprehension of the possibilities in any court of law and defers to the authoritarianism of the government. Hell, just throw out the Constitution. Good grief.

Yes, and even such cases often fail. But we are speaking of civil cases of one citizen or naturalized person under our jurisdiction.

I never failed because the facts were in my favor. You know, cut and dry. Yet the defendant still had a right to be heard.

All I need to know, is if are they a legal resident or not. That is all anyone should care about.

No, absolutely not. We don’t live at the whims of the government or the people who currently run the government. It’s why we have laws. Not to disregard them when they want to.

 

[W_Heisenberg]

What, in your world, does a habeas hearing consist of and, if they waive their right to such a hearing, has due process been fulfilled or not?

In "my" world, Luther.

Why are you even asking this.

Give my world.

MY world.

9 - 0 the Supreme Court ruled they were entitled to a habeas hearing.

We should be asking why do Trump and his supporters, think in THEIR world human beings aren't entitled to due process, and that Trump should be allowed to ignore the Constitution.

Why do you hate the Constitution, Luther?

Why do you think the Constitution only applies to white males, Luther?

 

[Nickyjo]

I think about half the Trump supporters simply do not care what the Constitution says, what the law mandates, or what the Supreme Court orders.

They know it's wrong...and they don't care.

Trump taught many of them well, it seems.

 

[Lord of Planar]

There is no law regarding an individual invading the US.

The law applies to nations and governments.

You sure are making lots of shit up.

Not according to the wording and "or" usage.