Trump Says He Could End Russia's War 'Within 24 Hours' of Negotiation

[anatta]

I don't need you to agree with me.

nor me. the point is you are excessively rude and resort to name calling

I am irritated that you parrot Russian propaganda 24/7, and I think it's reasonable to feel and express irritation at you for trusting the Russian government more than you trust your own government.

Anything not put out by the western press is RT Propaganda to you.
You won't even look at the links I showed of Ukraine war crimes because it doesnt fit your narrative
As to the USA - our government has been wrong on Russia so often - and gotten us into so many crappy wars
it doesnt deserve to be "trusted"...a fool blindly trusts. a wise man questions and verifies

You are spreading lies on behalf of the Russian government.

I make up my own mind on ideas. I dont care where the chips fall

 

[Ruby Wizard]

One is fighting in self defense. The other is invading.

There is a clear and distinct difference.

Who were the ethnic Russians being shelled/crucified and burned alive on film before the war invading?

 

[Rogue Valley]

Who were the ethnic Russians being shelled/crucified and burned alive on film before the war invading?

You fancy yourself an expert. You tell us.

 

[Ruby Wizard]

You fancy yourself an expert. You tell us.

The answer is no one. Thats the joke.

 

[Gateman_Wen]

The big boom stick? Very wise of you.

We are not going to reward them for their aggression.

 

[Infinite Chaos]

Why do you think appeasement is the only answer?

Not a question I think you expect an honest answer to. These guys have been extolling Ukraine surrender since day 1 of the invasion.

Why is negotiation a bad word?

It'n only a bad word when the person you propose to negotiate expects to come back again fro more, no matter how many of his own citizens blood it costs.

This has to be the dumbest 100 billion dollars ever spent in history.

Dunno, the image of Russian military competence will take decades to reverse. $50 billion is a drop in the ocean compared to crippling Russia's economy and wiping out its military for little Western live cost.

 

[MAGAnificent]

The only thing that needs to be negotiated is Russia. unconditionally withdrawing from all Ukrainian territory, including Crimea. What?

If there was no overthrow of the elected government in 2014, there would have been no establishment of de facto independent states in Donetsk & Luhansk. Because of the Ukranian Nationalist overthrow of Yanukovich the entire Ukraine navy had “defected” in the Crimea region, pledging allegiance to its unrecognised pro-Russian leader. Russia didn't fire a single shot to regain control of Crimea. Crimea is 80% Russian ethnics!

Taking over the Crimean Oblast was not an invasion. Crimea was the home port of the Ukraine Navy & the Ukraine Navy defected. When the Navy switched sides they didn't use force to blast the Oblast into submission.

As Aksyonov, the pro-Russian politician elected by Crimea's regional parliament as local prime minister.
announced he had given orders to Ukrainian naval forces on the peninsula
to disregard any orders from the "self-proclaimed" authorities in Kiev.
Sunday, he said, would go down in history as the birthday of the "navy of the autonomous republic of Crimea"

These regions are Russian speaking, eastern slavs who have no connection in any way
to the Lviv crowd. It's hard to imagine Russia abandoning them for any reason.

Those areas were illegally annexed and not recorgnized as Russian territory by international law. Putin's tactics pretty much mirror Hitlet's tactics.

 

[Antiwar]

We are not going to reward them for their aggression.

You pivoted.

 

[iguanaman]

At least Trump is talking negotiations and recognizes the "tragic' situation. That's more then i hear from other warpigs politicians.
Biden and the gang, McConnell etc. are just fine and dandy with this endless tragedy -a blank check to war against Russia

Why would there be any negotiations while Russia is still occupying parts of Ukraine? The Ukrainians are far from done and there are still 100's of 1000's of Russian invaders to kill. Putin could end this war tomorrow by pulling his troops out of Ukraine territories. It is his war to end.

 

[W_Heisenberg]

Those areas were illegally annexed and not recorgnized as Russian territory by international law. Putin's tactics pretty much mirror Hitlet's tactics.

One of the defining characteristics of the Russian people is they don't give a shit about the law. And, it's not totally unreasonable because in Russia the law doesn't give a shit about them.

 

[W_Heisenberg]

You pivoted.

Snark isn't going to save the world. Put some elbow grease into your posts.

 

[W_Heisenberg]

You think people would rather live under the rule of corrupt tyrant who runs a third world gas station attached to a nation or be part a growing, democratic society?

The people who support Russia don't like modern, liberal democracies. That's why they love Putin and think he's amazing.

 

[Tigerace117]

One of the defining characteristics of the Russian people is they don't give a shit about the law. And, it's not totally unreasonable because in Russia the law doesn't give a shit about them.

Oh look, meaningless blanket statements born out of nothing more than self righteous posturing.

 

[Antiwar]

Snark isn't going to save the world. Put some elbow grease into your posts.

"You pivoted" isn't snark. If you follow the discussion between @Gateman_Wen and I, it's easy to see that he pivoted from "or they get the stick" to "we are not going to reward them for their aggression."

 

[anatta]

Why would there be any negotiations while Russia is still occupying parts of Ukraine? The Ukrainians are far from done and there are still 100's of 1000's of Russian invaders to kill. Putin could end this war tomorrow by pulling his troops out of Ukraine territories. It is his war to end.

ya we know. no negotiated settlements -US Sam is paying the freight -and there are Russian we haven't helped kill yet

 

[anatta]

Those areas were illegally annexed and not recorgnized as Russian territory by international law. Putin's tactics pretty much mirror Hitlet's tactics.

there were referendums in Crimea and Donbas..these are overwhelmingly pro-Russian areas by culture, geography, language, economic ties...True they weren't "recognized" by the west, but the results were overwhelming support for autonomy

2014 Donbas status referendums - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

A poll released by the Kiev Institute of Sociology, with data gathered from 8–16 April, 41.1% of people in Donetsk were for decentralisation of Ukraine with powers transferred to regions, while letting it remain a unified state, 38.4% for changing Ukraine into federation, 27.5% were in favour of secession from Ukraine to join the Russian Federation, and only 10.6% supported current unitary structure without changes.[18]

Another poll, taken by the Donetsk Institute for Social Research and Political Analysis, found that 18.6% of those polled in the region opposed changes to the government structure, 47% favoured federalisation, or at least more economic independence from Kyiv, 27% wanted to join Russia in some form, and 5% wanted to become an independent state.[19]

 

[W_Heisenberg]

The plight of Russian speakers after the Kiev Maidan is detailed in an article in the NYTimes:

Driving Ukrainians Into Putin’s Arms

A RECENT United Nations report says that nearly half a million Ukrainians have fled the country since April. The fact that families run from a war zone is heartbreaking but hardly unexpected. The disturbing part lies in the details — of the roughly 454,000 people who had fled Ukraine by the end of October, more than 387,000 went to Russia. Most of those who fled were Russian speakers from the east, but this still raises a sobering question: If this is a conflict between Ukraine and Russia, why did so many Ukrainians choose to cast their lot with the enemy?

It's important to note that these Russians fled because of a civil war that Putin basically started. He poured weapons, money, ammo, intelligence personnel, and Russian soldiers into the region with the intent of fomenting and prolonging a civil war and destabilizing the Ukrainian government. The Maidan protesters were not the problem. The Ukrainians who opposed Russia's control of the Ukrainian government were not the problem. Putin was the problem. This is Putin's fault. All of it.

So, if you want to blame anyone for the so-called "plight" of "Russian speakers" in Ukraine, you must blame Putin.

 

[iguanaman]

there were referendums in Crimea and Donbas..these are overwhelmingly pro-Russian areas by culture, geography, language, economic ties...True they weren't "recognized" by the west, but the results were overwhelming support for autonomy

2014 Donbas status referendums - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

A poll released by the Kiev Institute of Sociology, with data gathered from 8–16 April, 41.1% of people in Donetsk were for decentralisation of Ukraine with powers transferred to regions, while letting it remain a unified state, 38.4% for changing Ukraine into federation, 27.5% were in favour of secession from Ukraine to join the Russian Federation, and only 10.6% supported current unitary structure without changes.[18]

Another poll, taken by the Donetsk Institute for Social Research and Political Analysis, found that 18.6% of those polled in the region opposed changes to the government structure, 47% favoured federalisation, or at least more economic independence from Kyiv, 27% wanted to join Russia in some form, and 5% wanted to become an independent state.[19]

Voting at gunpoint is not real voting and the same goes for polling made before the invasion. If Putin really gave a hoot about "ethnic Russians" he would not be killing them and blowing up their homes. Even those Ukrainians who might have been pro-Russia before the invasion have now changed their minds and are fighting in the Ukraine army

 

[W_Heisenberg]

True they weren't "recognized" by the west, but the results were overwhelming support for autonomy

But look at secession. It only had 27.5% support:

27.5% were in favour of secession from Ukraine to join the Russian Federation

And look at these proposals:

41.1% of people in Donetsk were for decentralisation of Ukraine with powers transferred to regions, while letting it remain a unified state,

38.4% for changing Ukraine into federation

and only 10.6% supported current unitary structure without changes.

These were not unreasonable proposals for Ukraine at the time, and indicate a civil war could have been entirely avoided had Putin not interfered and supplied the separatists with money, weapons, intelligence personnel, and actual Russian soldiers.

Decentralization would have been entirely doable had Putin not tried so hard to create a civil war.

You'll note that only a bare minority of the people in Donetsk were in favor of secession. Look at that, add it up. The vast majority of people in the city surveyed did not support a civil war.

This polling data makes your arguments, and Juin's arguments, and Slick's arguments look utterly ridiculous.

 

[iguanaman]

But look at secession. It only had 27.5% support:




And look at these proposals:







These were not unreasonable proposals for Ukraine at the time, and indicate a civil war could have been entirely avoided had Putin not interfered and supplied the separatists with money, weapons, intelligence personnel, and actual Russian soldiers.

Decentralization would have been entirely doable had Putin not tried so hard to create a civil war.

You'll note that only a bare minority of the people in Donetsk were in favor of secession. Look at that, add it up. The vast majority of people in the city surveyed did not support a civil war.

This polling data makes your arguments, and Juin's arguments, and Slick's arguments look utterly ridiculous.

Not to mention that Putin's brutal invasion has changed the minds of even the separatists. This is not about freeing anyone in Ukraine it is about genocide.

 

[W_Heisenberg]

"You pivoted" isn't snark. If you follow the discussion between @Gateman_Wen and I, it's easy to see that he pivoted from "or they get the stick" to "we are not going to reward them for their aggression."

This is snark:

The big boom stick? Very wise of you.

You contribute nothing to this forum of value.

 

[Antiwar]

This is snark:



You contribute nothing to this forum of value.

Maybe the next time you're trying to denigrate me and/or my commentary you'll pick the quote you were supposedly talking about the first time.

 

[W_Heisenberg]

Oh look, meaningless blanket statements born out of nothing more than self righteous posturing.

You are the crankiest, most negative person on this forum. Do you wake up with a bad attitude about everything?

There is a ton of literature on this.

Here is just one example:

https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/216916529.pdf

Go to page 375.

I don't quite understand why you despise modern, western, liberal democracies and you support Putin's autocratic regime. It makes no sense to me.

Russian governments and politicians were never able to successfully create a legal system that looked after the needs of ordinary Russians. And that's why most Russians do not respect the Rule of Law. I don't know if you've interacted with Russians in the U.S., but holy shit, they do not give one shit even about regular stuff like stop signs.

 

[W_Heisenberg]

Maybe the next time you're trying to denigrate me and/or my commentary you'll pick the quote you were supposedly talking about the first time.

You insult and denigrate everyone else, but you don't realize it.

If you want to persuade people you have to do more than post one-liners insulting other people.

And I want you to be right about your ideas. I want there to be no war, but you never offer anything in the way of constructive, practical plans.

 

[Antiwar]

You are the crankiest, most negative person on this forum. Do you wake up with a bad attitude about everything?

^ Personal attack; possibly ironic.

I don't quite understand why you despise modern, western, liberal democracies and you support Putin's autocratic regime. It makes no sense to me.

Your binary strawman argument makes perfect sense to you, that's why you keep using it.

Binary strawman argument: You're either for the popular war or you're pro-Russian.