Trump: I could declassify documents by thinking about it

[pamak]

It's an invalid argument because it assumes a legal restriction on the POTUS that does not exist.

And just to help you learn the basics of a debate, let me give you one link that can help you differentiate the different parts of reasoning so that you learn to distinguish a premise from a conclusion.

Arguments, Premises and Conclusion - SlideServe

Arguments, Premises and Conclusion. Fundamentals of Logic Unit – 1 Chapter – 2. The relationship among argument, premises and conclusion:. Arguments:.

www.slideserve.com

The premise is the assumption that we both accept regarding the foremost authority of a sitting president (at least, I accept it as long as the information is not related to restricted data related to nuclear information).

My conclusion is that the sitting president has legal obligations to leave an accurate declassification record for the upcoming president.

I arrived at the conclusion based on an argument.

Apparently, you try to debate without knowing basic logic. This is why Trump loves his uneducated simpletons!

 

[snakestretcher]

This is unworthy of a reply. You guys think he took out boxes and showed them to fioreigners. this is cray cray

Nothing Trump does surprises me any more. He's such a sad, compulsive braggart that I wouldn't be surprised if, 'look what I got!' was said to someone inappropriate.

 

[CaughtInThe]

#1 It is not "his house", it's a publicly accessible country club with members, guest, and hotel staff. And no, the Secret Service was not there to control access to government documents in basement storage rooms and the "45 Office".

#2 There are two aspects to classified data access: Security Clearance and Need to Know.

So who may have had access to either the storage area or "45 Office"...

• The FFLOTUS (Former First Lady of the United States, who holds no clearance or need to know)
• The FPOTUS's children (who hold no clearance or need to know)
• The FPOTUS Staff (who hold no clearance or need to know)
• The FPOTUS Lawyers (who hold no clearance or need to know)
• MAL Service Staff (who hold no clearance or need to know and includes a number of foreign nationals)**
• MAL Maintenance Staff (who hold no clearance or need to know)
• Members of the Secret Service (who may have a clearance but no need to know)
• The of course you have the FPOTUS himself who may or may not have a clearance, you would have to check with the current administration to see if that was suspended. But who does not have the 2nd requirement which is need to know.

**https://www.forbes.com/sites/zachev...91-foreign-workers-this-year/?sh=1dd6d7b249fc

The of course we have guests and visitors that the FPOTUS may have invited to the club and or the residence.

Here you have an entrepreneur that visited the FPOTUS in his office at MAL. You can tell based on the brick-a-brac and the carpet, the carpet matches the evidence photo that the DOJ included.


WW

and all that top secret (and above) stuff in the hotel house visited frequently by the craziest of the crazy...


"Trump spent significant time at Mar-a-Lago during his presidency—dubbing the club the “Winter White House”—and changed his primary address to the club in 2019 from Trump Tower in New York City. Since making his home at Mar-a-Lago after leaving the White House, Trump has frequently met with Republican politicians and major figures at the Florida spot, including Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene (R-Ga.), Rep. Matt Gaetz (R-Fla.), House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy and Sen. Ted Cruz (R-Texas), who tweeted on Tuesday that he had just eaten dinner with the ex-president at the club."

 

[snakestretcher]

That's why I gave up on these guys. Their TDS forces them into the most bizarre positions.

That, and the fact that Biden is never going to indict Trump

Do you know what he did or did not do with all that Top Secret material? No, so don't assume you do. Biden won't indict; it's not his job, but maybe someone else will. With Trump's dismal record of law-breaking taken into account, it wouldn't surprise me at all to see him facing a judge.

 

[snakestretcher]

and all that top secret (and above) stuff in the hotel house visited frequently by the craziest of the crazy...


"Trump spent significant time at Mar-a-Lago during his presidency—dubbing the club the “Winter White House”—and changed his primary address to the club in 2019 from Trump Tower in New York City. Since making his home at Mar-a-Lago after leaving the White House, Trump has frequently met with Republican politicians and major figures at the Florida spot, including Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene (R-Ga.), Rep. Matt Gaetz (R-Fla.), House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy and Sen. Ted Cruz (R-Texas), who tweeted on Tuesday that he had just eaten dinner with the ex-president at the club."

That reads like the cast of a remake of One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest, but with genuine nutters, not actors. MTG as Nurse Ratched, with Gaetz as Chief Broom?

 

[trouble13]

You confuse an assumption with an argument which was based on the exact same starting point that Trumpers use when they try to defend Trump, meaning the ultimate authority of a sitting president. If you want to call this starting point an "assumption," then we both operate under the same assumption. The difference is that your argument of what Trump can do leads to a contradiction regarding the ultimate authority of a sitting president while my reasoning of what Trump cannot do maintains consistency regarding the ultimate authority of a president. The legal restriction was the CONCLUSION of my argument and it was based on the fact that absence of such legal restriction (as you were trying to argue) leads to the contradiction mentioned above.

You also ignore the articulated legal restrictions I pointed from EOs and Congressional Acts such as the Atomic Energy Act.

I did not ignore your articulated legal restrictions which were well made by you, I might add. You told me upfront that you would ignore my argument before I made it. At that point I saw no reason to present my position. There's no point in it.

At some point both is us need to agree to disagree. The courts will sort it out and we everyone will need to live with what they decide.

 

[trouble13]

And just to help you learn the basics of a debate, let me give you one link that can help you differentiate the different parts of reasoning so that you learn to distinguish a premise from a conclusion.

Arguments, Premises and Conclusion - SlideServe

Arguments, Premises and Conclusion. Fundamentals of Logic Unit – 1 Chapter – 2. The relationship among argument, premises and conclusion:. Arguments:.

www.slideserve.com

The premise is the assumption that we both accept regarding the foremost authority of a sitting president (at least, I accept it as long as the information is not related to restricted data related to nuclear information).

My conclusion is that the sitting president has legal obligations to leave an accurate declassification record for the upcoming president.

I arrived at the conclusion based on an argument.

Apparently, you try to debate without knowing basic logic. This is why Trump loves his uneducated simpletons!

If anyone was ever wondering what the Progressive version of man-splaining looks like. Check out pamaks post above. Apparently im not debating correctly lol.

 

[Paradoxical]

I know that the documents he had had classification markings. I also know that the excuse his supporters use that supposedly these documents were the declassified files from Operation Crossfire Hurricane is not convincing because that Operation STILL retained classified information even after his memo, and because his supporters do not know what files he possessed. So, their excuse is just stupid.

Also, the fact that the accepted FBI recommendations were about REDACTIONS, shows that the documents that were the subject of Trump's memo contained BOTH classified info which was to be redacted, and info which Trump wanted declassified. Since REDACTIONS need process and time to be implemented, and the memo was issued on January 19, 2017, it means that if Trump got these documents, he got classified info which had not been redacted yet.

Still doesn't matter. He has proof positive that he declassified those documents. That the markings hadn't been removed is irrelevant. The prez has wide-ranging powers.

Look, I know you love the FBI and think they are "As seen on TV" getting the bad guys, but they ARE the bad guys. They were getting worried that Trump was going to expose their crimes.

 

[Paradoxical]

I do not know who saw these files, but I do know that Donald was not the one who filled these storage boxes. and I do know that Donald has many foreign guests in the place where he keeps these highly classified documents. He also has a propensity to attract low-lives who have a record of working for foreign interests, such as Flynn and Manafort. He also has many foreign workers in his estate.

Time to welcome new batch of foreign workers to Trump's Mar-a-Lago club/crime scene | Frank Cerabino

From columnist Frank Cerabino: Trump's Mar-a-Lago seeks to hire 91 temporary foreign workers this season as club is focal point of misuse of nation's top secrets.

news.yahoo.com

News item: The Mar-a-Lago Club in Palm Beach has filed a request with the U.S. Department of Labor to hire 91 temporary foreign workers next month to staff the club as housekeepers, cooks and servers during the upcoming season

So, because of the insecure storage of these highly classified documents, Trump has damaged national security.

Silly putty.

 

[Paradoxical]

No. An NARA facility. Obama’s documents are not being stored in a furniture warehouse.

It may have been in the past, but no longer.

WW

If anyone wonders why and how MSM is ruining humanity, this example that I am going to give is a prime reason. Indoctrination and propaganda are not just repeating a lie over and over and over again as was perfected by Joseph Goebbels and now by the Democrats and MSM, it is keeping from the public the truth to such an extent that hundreds of millions of people were made to think that Trump colluded with Russia. We now know that people in the FBI, Perkins Coie, the CIA, and DOJ all KNEW that Trump didn't collude but set it all up to get him out of office. They are now trying to keep him from running again because people like John Podesta and other evil-doers make millions working for the government.

THIS is the real truth and I do it with a link from someone that no one here ever heard about because it is not CNN or MSNBC or USA Today or Businessinsider, etc.

About those Obama classified records in the Chicago-area furniture warehouse...

It almost sounds like a scene from an Indiana Jones movie: a dusty warehouse. The smell of must permeating the air. The only sound the scurrying of the occasional rat. And entombed within it, thousands of boxes upon boxes, practical...

www.americanthinker.com

That is the conclusion being made following a letter from the Obama Foundation to the National Archive and Records Administration that has recently come to light. According to the letter, at least up until 2018, the Obama-era documents -- all of them -- were being stored in the warehouse at Hoffman Estates. The letter clearly states that classified papers were included alongside the unclassified files

For TWO long YEARS, Obama's records were kept there. Who knows what criminals could have gotten into some unused warehouse looking for copper and other materials to rip off and sell? Did the Archives freak out? Nope. They say they were in control but it is what they DON'T say, which is that there was no monitoring of who went in and out and if Obama is working on digitizing records, for all we know Sandy Berger was there.

PDS. His attorney promised to be done by August of 2021. They aren't. Heard of any raid at the facility?

 

[Paradoxical]

@trouble13

And for those who oversimplify serious issues with their partisan nonsense of a president's "ultimate classification power," feel free to show if this applies to every atomic-related classified information. Hint, it does NOT! The Atomic Energy Act created the concept of "born classification," meaning that certain nuclear related information is born classified. Such information does not require any decision by a president to become classified. The authority of this automatic classification at birth comes from this Atomic Energy Act (Congressional Act).

From

Security Classification of Information​

Volume 1. Introduction, History, and Adverse Impacts​

https://sgp.fas.org/library/quist/chap_4.pdf

The “born classified” concept is unique with RD.† This concept assumes that newly discovered atomic-energy information might be so significant with respect to the nation’s security that it requires immediate and absolute control.41,‡ Information classified by executive order (currently termed classified national security information) is not so designated until an original classifier makes a positive determination that the information falls within the definition of classified national security information.§ Donald B. Woodbridge, former Department of Energy Contractor Classification Officer, has characterized the term “born classified” as words that “give the professional classificationist unanswerable authority.

So, while Obama's EO 13526 is addressing the classification and declassification of national security information, the classification and declassification of atomic-related information is controlled by a Congressional Act

No atomic energy secrets were involved. Once again, MSM lied about it. You swallowed the lie hook, line and sinker, as usual

 

[Paradoxical]

Nothing Trump does surprises me any more. He's such a sad, compulsive braggart that I wouldn't be surprised if, 'look what I got!' was said to someone inappropriate.

No mass killings in Russia when Trump was president. No killing of 13 marines and an innocent family in Afghanistan. No inflation due to massive and unnecessary overspending on Covid. No doubling of gas prices and begging Saudi Arabia when he was there. None of this green energy bullshit that is making us all poor....including Europe.

 

[pamak]

I did not ignore your articulated legal restrictions which were well made by you, I might add. You told me upfront that you would ignore my argument before I made it. At that point I saw no reason to present my position. There's no point in it.

At some point both is us need to agree to disagree. The courts will sort it out and we everyone will need to live with what they decide.

What I told you is that if you make the same argument that other posters made before you joined the conversation, then you would need to know that I had address such arguments in the past. I tried to save us both time by encouraging you to browse the thread before to be sure that you will not repeat the same talking points.

 

[pamak]

If anyone was ever wondering what the Progressive version of man-splaining looks like. Check out pamaks post above. Apparently im not debating correctly lol.

I explained to you why your claim about my "wrong" assumption comes from your confusion regarding which part in my reasoning is the assumption (premise) and which part is my conclusion. Knowing accurately the relationship between premise conclusion and argument is a prerequisite for having a reasonable debate.

 

[pamak]

Still doesn't matter. He has proof positive that he declassified those documents. That the markings hadn't been removed is irrelevant. The prez has wide-ranging powers.

Look, I know you love the FBI and think they are "As seen on TV" getting the bad guys, but they ARE the bad guys. They were getting worried that Trump was going to expose their crimes.

No he does not. He just makes a CLAIM which contradicts EVERY practice we have seen up until now in the executive branch, including the practice he followed during his government because he issued a memo (thus communicated his decisions) when he declassified parts of Operation Crossfire Hurricane on the LAST FULL DAY of his presidency.


Also, as it has been explained before, Trump's claim also contradicts previous court decisions

https://casetext.com/case/ny-times-v-cent-intelligence-agency

Declassification cannot occur unless designated officials follow specified procedures


In addition, Trump's claim also leads to a contradiction with respect to a sitting president's constitutional powers as I explained in previous posts



I know you believe in Trump the hero who tries to expose FBI's dirty laundry but again your narrative is destroyed by the fact that Trump ACCEPTED FBI's recommendations for redacting information related to Crossfire Hurricane that was meant to remain classified.

 

[pamak]

No atomic energy secrets were involved. Once again, MSM lied about it. You swallowed the lie hook, line and sinker, as usual

You speculate. We will need to wait and see. I am just pointing the fact that all those who talk about a president's unconstrained authority of declassification, oversimplify a complex subject and ignore many of the legal constrains that DO exist even for presidents.

 

[Rawley]

Well,
Do you know what he did or did not do with all that Top Secret material? No, so don't assume you do. Biden won't indict; it's not his job, but maybe someone else will. With Trump's dismal record of law-breaking taken into account, it wouldn't surprise me at all to see him facing a judge.

Well, you're surprised by microwave popcorn. Biden will not indict him over some documents. His handlers know the blowback will be like you've never seen

 

[pamak]

Silly putty.

If it was silly, you would have tried to confront it. The fact that you do not even try to do so shows that it is not so silly as you try to portray it

 

[Paradoxical]

No he does not. He just makes a CLAIM which contradicts EVERY practice we have seen up until now in the executive branch, including the practice he followed during his government because he issued a memo (thus communicated his decisions) when he declassified parts of Operation Crossfire Hurricane on the LAST FULL DAY of his presidency. That clai also contradicts previous court decisions

https://casetext.com/case/ny-times-v-cent-intelligence-agency

Declassification cannot occur unless designated officials follow specified procedures


Trump's claim also leads to a contradiction with respect to a sitting president's constitutional powers as I explained in previous posts

I know you believe in Trump the hero who tries to expose FBI's dirty laundry but again your narrative is destroyed by the fact that Trump ACCEPTED FBI's recommendations for redacting information related to Crossfire Hurricane that was meant to remain classified.

That is NOT for a president. Good try though.

 

[Paradoxical]

You speculate. We will need to wait and see. I am just pointing the fact that all those who talk about a president's unconstrained authority of declassification, oversimplify a complex subject and ignore many of the legal constrains that DO exist even for presidents.

The FBI called WaPo and told them to say that nuclear secrets were there knowing that no one could ever disprove that, amirite? The next call was to find out when the tickets for the opera and five-star restaurant would be delivered to them at the lavish condo owned by WaPo in Hawaii they would be staying at

The prez does NOT have constrained authority on declassification. You are wrong once again. Why are you always so wrong? Listening to too much MSM?

 

[Paradoxical]

If it was silly, you would have tried to confront it. The fact that you do not even try to do so shows that it is not so silly as you try to portray it

At this point, debunking your every post is as useless as trying to tell you that...NO...Trump did not collude with Russia and the FBI and Perkins Coie set it all up. IOW, silly putty.

 

[pamak]

Well, you're surprised by microwave popcorn. Biden will not indict him over some documents. His handlers know the blowback will be like you've never seen

You repeat Trump's talking points. The blowback will be more severe if Trump's conduct passes without consequences. If maga guys believe that mass crowds will shield their leader, they are mistaken. The vast majority of them will not risk their life for Trump just like they did not risk their life when Biden's handlers "stole" the election. All the guns these maga guys had were proved to be expensive toys that boosted their silly fantasy of "macho man," because when the time came and believed that Biden established a tyrannical government at odds with the will of the people, they simply kowtowed to Biden's handlers.

 

[pamak]

At this point, debunking your every post is as useless as trying to tell you that...NO...Trump did not collude with Russia and the FBI and Perkins Coie set it all up. IOW, silly putty.

At this point you cannot refute a post which destroys your claim that Trump's locks created a secured place for storing classified documents. And by the way, in contrast to what you were claiming before, that you supposedly address every post, the reality is that you ignore most of the points made by the people who challenge you. This talking point (hiring of foreign workers at Mar-a-Lago) has been used again in this thread. it is just that just like now, you ignored it then.

 

[pamak]

The FBI called WaPo and told them to say that nuclear secrets were there knowing that no one could ever disprove that, amirite? The next call was to find out when the tickets for the opera and five-star restaurant would be delivered to them at the lavish condo owned by WaPo in Hawaii they would be staying at

The prez does NOT have constrained authority on declassification. You are wrong once again. Why are you always so wrong? Listening to too much MSM?

You speculate about the leak. I will remind you that Trump's circle was the first which started leaks related to Mar-a-Lago raid in order to discredit the FBI.

I am not interested in unsupported claims. Also, did not you say that at this point there is no point in debunking what I said? Apparently, that was another lie of yours which you used to cover the fact that you had NOTHING to refute the fact that Trump was hiring foreign workers in his "secure" facility!

 

[Paradoxical]

At this point you cannot refute a post which destroys your claim that Trump's locks created a secured place for storing classified documents. And by the way, in contrast to what you were claiming before, that you supposedly address every post, the reality is that you ignore most of the points made by the people who challenge you. This talking point (hiring of foreign workers at Mar-a-Lago) has been used again in this thread. it is just that just like now, you ignored it then.

Once again, you are wrong and provably so. the reason I have so many posts is that I answer every one of them unless they are just too stupid. What you may be seeing is people that I have on ignore and they don't know it and make a post to a comment I made, which I don't see because they are on ignore. I didn't use to do that but too many people here just became intolerable because they were either idiots or trolling me to get a reply that they could report to a monitor. I am up to about 25 people on ignore now. If I don't respond to a post of yours it is either because I am too busy or just overlooked it or I found it too stoopid to be worthy of any comment.