Trump: I could declassify documents by thinking about it

[Rawley]

What with the "IF" statement?
Has Trump or his lawyers made the claim that the documents were "copies"?
Who has the originals? NARA doesn't. Isn't that why NARA asked for the documents to be returned. Did the FBI or DOJ say they only found copies at MAL?

Your turn

Clearest example. The binder of Crossfire Hurricane documents the FBI/DOJ provided to Trump. Do you think they gave him originals? No. They gave him copies. They are not Presidential records, they are personal records. Plain and simple. This is not rocket science Mike. Because of your hatred for Trump though, you turn yourself into a pretzel just to make him look bad.

 

[Rawley]

That is incorrect. Documents generated during the term of office are still Presidential Records under the PRA of 1978, copies made for convenience of personal reference must be clearly marked as so. Wanna bet the documents confiscated from MAL do not have the required copy markings?

(Which of course would matter for the classified documents because if illegal copies were made, those copies would still be classified at the same level.)

WW

$100,000

 

[Ethel2]

View attachment 67414340

Not they don't.

They do not have to argue that the President doesn't have the power to declassify, they have to argue that the FPOTUS didn't declassify them during his term in office and continued to treat them as classified even after leaving office. They will just need to show that the FPOTUS is attempting to retroactively claim declassification.

WW

Lets keep in mind the fact that it really doesn't matter at this point whether or not those documents were declassified. Its illegal to possess government documents relating to the presidency period. Now if it turns out that some of them were top secret and endangered national security that is yet another charge the orange pustule will face.
If I was the jackass I would strongly consider moving to Russia where I would be safe.

 

[Questerr]

Clearest example. The binder of Crossfire Hurricane documents the FBI/DOJ provided to Trump. Do you think they gave him originals? No. They gave him copies. They are not Presidential records, they are personal records. Plain and simple. This is not rocket science Mike. Because of your hatred for Trump though, you turn yourself into a pretzel just to make him look bad.

Copies of government documents given to presidents are still presidential records. Not personal records. They belong to the office of the President.

 

[tres borrachos]

Two more weeks.

I'm starting to think that report is locked in the same vault as Trump's big beautiful healthcare plan and Obama's secret Kenyan birth certificate.

 

[mike2810]

Clearest example. The binder of Crossfire Hurricane documents the FBI/DOJ provided to Trump. Do you think they gave him originals? No. They gave him copies. They are not Presidential records, they are personal records. Plain and simple. This is not rocket science Mike. Because of your hatred for Trump though, you turn yourself into a pretzel just to make him look bad.

Prove what you say is true.
As WW commented, copies for personal use are marked as such. Why would NARA request copies back? They would have the originals. Seems the originals are what was missing and the search warrant at MAL was looking for them.

 

[Callen]

This is the part some don't get. They don't have to prove that the FPOTUS **didn't** declassify. They have to show that the documents were and are still classified from the government perspective.

Why do they need to prove it? At this point it is totally irrelevant to any aspect of the investigation.

From the 11th Court oif Appeal

"Mr. Trump “suggests that he may have declassified these documents when he was president,” the appeals court wrote. “But the record contains no evidence that any of these records were declassified.”

The court went on to say, “In any event, at least for these purposes, the declassification argument is a red herring because declassifying an official document would not change its content or render it personal.”

 

[CaughtInThe]

 

[Stealers Wheel]

They are going to have to if they bring a court case against him.

So you're saying that his legal possession of these documents all hinges on whether or not he declassified them. The 11th disagreed with you. According to them, "the declassification argument is a red herring because declassifying an official document would not change its content or render it personal."

 

[Ethel2]

Prove what you say is true.
As WW commented, copies for personal use are marked as such. Why would NARA request copies back? They would have the originals. Seems the originals are what was missing and the search warrant at MAL was looking for them.

Lets say that the jackass made copies of top secret documents revealing the nuclear capabilities of foreign nations. Would the copies not be just as damaging to our national security as the originals? It doesn't matter one bit if they are copies or originals (other than the likelihood that the act of making copies of such documents is illegal too). They do not belong to the jackass. They belong to the government.

 

[Pound4abrown]

Copies of government documents given to presidents are still presidential records. Not personal records. They belong to the office of the President.

The idea that people think that is how it works is just ****ing mind numbing. Well they gave him copies of the super secret documents, therefore after he reads them, he can make paper planes out of them and pass them from table to table at MAL.

 

[DCCougar]

His own legal team has stated in court filings that the appropriate time for them to reveal evidence that the documents were declassified by Trump is at trial. Do you think they are correct?

That is such nonsense! Trump made the question about declassification an issue when he filed the case for a special master before judge Cannon. IOW, it's an issue NOW. And as the 11th Circuit essentially said, PUT UP OR SHUT UP! Well, Trump hasn't put up anything in court, but neither has he shut up in the media. Typical. He lives in an alternate, non-reality universe, along with his apologists.

 

[Pound4abrown]

I'm starting to think that report is locked in the same vault as Trump's big beautiful healthcare plan and Obama's secret Kenyan birth certificate.

But at least it is safe there.

 

[noonereal]

Note that the declassification process for documents re: national security have to go through the originator in National Intelligence before it can be declassified by POTUS.
They have the right to challenge it. It is clear that TFG did none of those things.

The legal basis for the classification system comes from the president’s constitutional authority as commander in chief. Presidents have established and developed it through a series of executive orders dating to the era encompassing World War II and the early Cold War. The current directive, Executive Order 13526, was issued by President Barack Obama in 2009.

Executive Order 13526- Classified National Security Information​

PART 3 -- DECLASSIFICATION AND DOWNGRADING

Sec. 3.1. Authority for Declassification. (a) Information shall be declassified as soon as it no longer meets the standards for classification under this order.

(b) Information shall be declassified or downgraded by:

(1) the official who authorized the original classification, if that official is still serving in the same position and has original classification authority;

(2) the originator's current successor in function, if that individual has original classification authority;

(3) a supervisory official of either the originator or his or her successor in function, if the supervisory official has original classification authority; or

(4) officials delegated declassification authority in writing by the agency head or the senior agency official of the originating agency.

(c) The Director of National Intelligence (or, if delegated by the Director of National Intelligence, the Principal Deputy Director of National Intelligence) may, with respect to the Intelligence Community, after consultation with the head of the originating Intelligence Community element or department, declassify, downgrade, or direct the declassification or downgrading of information or intelligence relating to intelligence sources, methods, or activities.

Read more:

https://archive.ph/JSZJG

Who has the power to classify and declassify information?​

In the normal course of business, certain officials who have been designated as “original classification authorities” in federal departments and agencies can do so. They are considered to be exercising the president’s power over such matters, which has been delegated to them.

Are there formal procedures for declassifying information?​

Yes. The 2009 executive order directs the head of the department or agency that originally deemed information classified to oversee declassification reviews, and it sets some standards for them.

The executive branch has regulations laying out the process that should be followed, such as a requirement to make sure that other agencies and departments with an interest in the secret are consulted. There are also procedures for the removal of classification markings on documents.

https://archive.ph/WB2lb#selection-799.0-827.248​

LOL, oh yeah, the facts will convince MAGA

LOL

 

[BlueTex]

Since when did the accused have to probe anything. The burden is on the prosecution to probe that he did not beyond a reasonable doubt.

I think you need to go learn the difference between civil and criminal law. There is NO prosecutor in this case.

 

[Cope]

I didn't say it is easily explained, you asked what the law was and I showed you. Why are you now crafting a dishonest post after getting the answer you specifically requested?

A president can decide, but the classified record has to go through the process. There has to be a trail. This is laid out in the EO I linked you too.

Are you so desperate to defend a serial liar you don't actually want answers to the questions you ask?

I'm not in the least desperate because I am not invested one way or the other in Trump.
However, you still have yet to explain why that process includes the President, the one issuing the EO's. The on person who holds the highest classification and the one person who can de-classsify anything he wishes, however he wants to.
I asked for the law specifying what the President has to do to de-classify something. You provided me with what the President tells others they must do.

Do you not grok the difference?

That does lead me to the next question, if he temporarily de-classifies something with the intent to not have it de-classified always, is that possible as well?

 

[Pound4abrown]

When your bazooka runs out, shoot your rifle, when that runs out, shoot your pistol. When that runs out, throw the pistol. When you have nothing left. Go after the Librarians.

 

[WorldWatcher]

$100,000

How about signature phase in our profiles for 60 days? (Even if proven wrong I doubt you would pay anyway.)

If the non-classified confiscated from Mar-a-Lago used as part of court filings bear clear markings as to copies used for convenience of reference, then you win and can have me use whatever signature you choose within the terms of service of this site.

If the non-classified confiscated from Mar-a-Lago used as part of court filings do not bear clear markings as to copies used for convenience of reference, then I win and can have you use whatever signature I choose within the terms of service of this site.

I'm an honorable man and will follow through on my promise.

So two questions:

#1 Do you agree to the terms, and

#2 Will you honor the terms once documents are available in open court and we can see what non-classified documents are used specifically as part of an indictment or court case.

WW

 

[BlueTex]

What with the "IF" statement?
Has Trump or his lawyers made the claim that the documents were "copies"?
Who has the originals? NARA doesn't. Isn't that why NARA asked for the documents to be returned. Did the FBI or DOJ say they only found copies at MAL?

Your turn

It just laughably stupid.. very, very few documents have only one copy..

 

[upsideguy]

I'm curious...exactly what IS the process a President must go through to declassify stuff?

There you go: https://www.archives.gov/isoo/policy-documents/cnsi-eo.html

 

[Pound4abrown]

So you're saying that his legal possession of these documents all hinges on whether or not he declassified them. The 11th disagreed with you. According to them, "the declassification argument is a red herring because declassifying an official document would not change its content or render it personal."

You do know that Trump nation now thinks the 11th are anti-trump, even though two of the three were appointed by him. It is all they can cling to, since they can't just admit that he is a ****ing criminal. It MUST be everyone else.
Such a large and far reaching conspiracy.

 

[WorldWatcher]

Lets say that the jackass made copies of top secret documents revealing the nuclear capabilities of foreign nations. Would the copies not be just as damaging to our national security as the originals? It doesn't matter one bit if they are copies or originals (other than the likelihood that the act of making copies of such documents is illegal too). They do not belong to the jackass. They belong to the government.

The copies thing applies only to Presidential Records not to classified documents which are two different things.

WW

 

[BlueTex]

Please keep up with the thread if you'd like to participate. Presidential records v personal records. Nothing to do with their classification.

Is there such a thing as classified personal records?

 

[Credence]

Since when did the accused have to probe anything. The burden is on the prosecution to probe that he did not beyond a reasonable doubt.

This is a civil case. The documents and paper trail will speak for themselves. Numbers don't lie
In a civil case, it is the preponderance of evidence which is a much lower standard than held in criminal cases.
The fact that he exercised his 5th amendment right can also be used against him in a civil case; not so in a criminal case
=============================
While there are different procedures that apply to one versus the other, the greatest distinction is in the “standard of proof” necessary to win your case. Criminal cases require the prosecution to convince the jury that the defendant is guilty “beyond a reasonable doubt.” Even the very slightest doubt regarding guilt should result in a finding of “not guilty.”

By contrast, civil cases require a reduced standard of proof. This standard is generally referred to as a “preponderance of the evidence.” If you consider a balance scale, conceptually, the plaintiff must only barely tip the scale in his favor to earn a verdict. In other words, the person prosecuting a civil case must only convince the jury to believe his case is more likely true than not.

What's The Difference Between a Civil and a Criminal Case?

www.monseesmayer.com

“The Fifth Amendment does not forbid adverse inferences against parties to civil actions when they refuse to testify” in response to evidence of wrongdoing, Justice Bryon R. White wrote for the court in 1976. That means Mr. Trump may pay a price for his decision to invoke the Fifth Amendment in a civil case.

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www.nytimes.com

 

[WorldWatcher]

I'm not in the least desperate because I am not invested one way or the other in Trump.
However, you still have yet to explain why that process includes the President, the one issuing the EO's. The on person who holds the highest classification and the one person who can de-classsify anything he wishes, however he wants to.
I asked for the law specifying what the President has to do to de-classify something. You provided me with what the President tells others they must do.

Do you not grok the difference?

That does lead me to the next question, if he temporarily de-classifies something with the intent to not have it de-classified always, is that possible as well?

Just curious. Do you think that classified documents and classified information are the same thing?

(Not trying to set a trap, but the discussions are different depending on perspective.)

WW