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Trump cornered on border wall

veritas1 said:
I don't think that will happen. People continue to underestimate Trump and his determination to do what he promised. More wall will be built. It just remains to be seen how much. What I find sad is that people actually oppose it when everyone knows it will work, even its opponents. If walls don't work why do people continue to build them? Why do the political, media and Hollywood elites have them around their estates? Can't anyone just use a ladder? That's what we keep hearing.
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Walls work to defend against crimes of opportunity, and they work because there are other easier targets nearby. It is easier to steal jewelry from a home without a wall than it is from a home with a wall. This doesn't logically mean that it is therefore impossible to steal jewelry from a home with a wall, correct?

Walls don't work against someone determined to bypass them, and every person who attempts to cross the border falls into that latter category. If I offered you a million dollars if you were able break into a random celebrity's walled home I guarantee you I would owe you a million dollars. And I am willing to bet you are in at least slightly worse physical shape than someone who crossed the Mexican desert on foot with a plan to cross the US border.
 
sangha said:
Trump will sign whatever makes it out of Congress, and what makes it out of Congress will not include any money for his wall

Trump has been whipped like a rented mule.
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Your arrogance is your enemy

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
 
veritas1 said:
I don't think that will happen. People continue to underestimate Trump and his determination to do what he promised. More wall will be built. It just remains to be seen how much. What I find sad is that people actually oppose it when everyone knows it will work, even its opponents. If walls don't work why do people continue to build them? Why do the political, media and Hollywood elites have them around their estates? Can't anyone just use a ladder? That's what we keep hearing.
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It takes a surprisingly simple understanding of the issue to equate a wall around an estate with one the length of the US-Mexico border. Childishly simple. You might as well cite the Berlin Wall or the Gaza wall as examples.
$5B? The new bridge in San Francisco went over $6B and the price of steel went up 25% in one day last fall. $5B is just in-the-door money.
Maybe it doesnt have to be the full length of the border. Maybe it just needs to be where there's lots of foot traffic over the border. Is that how it is?
Know who wants that wall even more than you do? The contractors who will build it and house and feed and transport the crews. Good thing Trump has no contacts in the heavy construction sector- might look suspicious when contracts are let otherwise.
 
Mycroft said:
Trump has made his position clear. It's now up to Congress to send him a bill. When they do, he will then take whatever action he considers appropriate.

He's not in a box. He's simply waiting on Congress.
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I predict Trump will get a bill from congress that has a lot of funding for border security but none for his wall. In that case, what do you think Trump will do?
 
lwf said:
Walls work to defend against crimes of opportunity, and they work because there are other easier targets nearby. It is easier to steal jewelry from a home without a wall than it is from a home with a wall. This doesn't logically mean that it is therefore impossible to steal jewelry from a home with a wall, correct?

Walls don't work against someone determined to bypass them, and every person who attempts to cross the border falls into that latter category. If I offered you a million dollars if you were able break into a random celebrity's walled home I guarantee you I would owe you a million dollars. And I am willing to bet you are in at least slightly worse physical shape than someone who crossed the Mexican desert on foot with a plan to cross the US border.
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Yet, in areas where new walls were put up, apprehension of illegals has fallen dramatically. It's not that walls will stop every person wanting to get in but that once it becomes clear that most are failing, there will be a deterrent effect. There is no real argument about whether walls work. We all know that they do. The real question is why anyone would not be interested in further eliminating the passage of drugs, weapons and human cargo into the US.
 
Grand Mal said:
It takes a surprisingly simple understanding of the issue to equate a wall around an estate with one the length of the US-Mexico border. Childishly simple. You might as well cite the Berlin Wall or the Gaza wall as examples.
$5B? The new bridge in San Francisco went over $6B and the price of steel went up 25% in one day last fall. $5B is just in-the-door money.
Maybe it doesnt have to be the full length of the border. Maybe it just needs to be where there's lots of foot traffic over the border. Is that how it is?
Know who wants that wall even more than you do? The contractors who will build it and house and feed and transport the crews. Good thing Trump has no contacts in the heavy construction sector- might look suspicious when contracts are let otherwise.
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The childishness is on the part of those who chirp that ladders will defeat the wall. Why aren't they defeating it now in places where substantial wall exists? It is fanciful nonsense. As for some contractors making money building it, who cares? Doesn't Lockheed-Martin make money building fighter jets? It's a question of doing what is necessary to solve a problem and, make no mistake, we have a problem or 12 or 15 or 20 million illegal aliens wouldn't be here.
 
veritas1 said:
Yet, in areas where new walls were put up, apprehension of illegals has fallen dramatically. It's not that walls will stop every person wanting to get in but that once it becomes clear that most are failing, there will be a deterrent effect. There is no real argument about whether walls work. We all know that they do. The real question is why anyone would not be interested in further eliminating the passage of drugs, weapons and human cargo into the US.
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Can you name one congressperson from a district on the southern border that wants Trump's wall built there? I tried to find one and couldn't. TIA.
 
<alt>doxygen said:
I predict Trump will get a bill from congress that has a lot of funding for border security but none for his wall. In that case, what do you think Trump will do?
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I think, at some point, Trump will go ahead and build the wall if Congress sends him a bill without wall funding.

Unlike you, though, I won't make any predictions about whether Congress will send him a bill that includes wall funding or not.
 
<alt>doxygen said:
Can you name one congressperson from a district on the southern border that wants Trump's wall built there? I tried to find one and couldn't. TIA.
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I haven't researched the issue but anyone not wanting it has some other reason for doing so. There is no argument as to whether it would work. The Border patrol wants it and I think they have more boots on the ground knowledge than any Congressman or woman. That's good enough for me.
 
veritas1 said:
I haven't researched the issue but anyone not wanting it has some other reason for doing so. There is no argument as to whether it would work. The Border patrol wants it and I think they have more boots on the ground knowledge than any Congressman or woman. That's good enough for me.
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Who speaks for the "border patrol" and is requesting Trump's wall?
 
Mycroft said:
I think, at some point, Trump will go ahead and build the wall if Congress sends him a bill without wall funding.

Unlike you, though, I won't make any predictions about whether Congress will send him a bill that includes wall funding or not.
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I will be curious to watch Trump try do go around congress.

Wall funding? I rarely make predictions, but I'm okay putting that one out there. You can ding me if I'm wrong - I'll own it.
 
veritas1 said:
The childishness is on the part of those who chirp that ladders will defeat the wall. Why aren't they defeating it now in places where substantial wall exists? It is fanciful nonsense. As for some contractors making money building it, who cares? Doesn't Lockheed-Martin make money building fighter jets? It's a question of doing what is necessary to solve a problem and, make no mistake, we have a problem or 12 or 15 or 20 million illegal aliens wouldn't be here.
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So you advocate a wall full-length of the border?
Talk of ladders is kind of silly considering you'd have to get down the other side and depending on the design talk of ladders might be moot. I've seen designs that I know for a fact I could climb unassisted, and other designs I could easily toss a grapnel with a knotted rope over. Consider, too, that just a small percentage of illegal immigrants actually go cross-country. It's just that hiking is the cheapest and easiest option and if the wall were full-length those who can't get over it will use a more expensive and/or inconvenient option.
And you don't even know how much it'll cost. You sure you want to go into an open-ended financial committment? Because if you start it you won't be able to quit and I can easily see the whole endeavour turning the USA into a laughing-stock.
 
It seems the Democrats have offered $500 million for new border fencing where needed, but would be willing to up that to $1.3 billion. The House Freedom Caucus (uber-conservative) is seeking at least $2 billion, so a number somewhere between $1.3-$2 billion seems doable. The hangup now seems to be funds allocated for detention beds. Democrats want to reduce the number of detention beds by 5,000 to 35,500, while Republicans seek more than the current 40,500 detention beds. By court order, detentions cannot exceed detention beds.

There is a general optimism regardless. Absolutely no one in Congress wants another government shutdown. Congressional negotiators say they are about 98% done. Due to a change in House rules, Monday is the last day a bill can be presented in the House and be voted on before the 15th. (This rule is to prevent any reprise of the Republican majority 115th House in which a huge bill could be put on the floor (such as the tax bill) and voted on only hours later with insufficient time for Representatives to actually read the legislation they were to vote on. There must now be a span of at least 3 days between any bill being put up for a vote and the actual vote. No such common-sense rule exists in the GOP majority McConnell Senate).
 
<alt>doxygen said:
I have no problem with more agents and additional security measures (what's sensible and where sensible). I have a problem with the Trump Ego Wall.
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In 2017 this was going to be a carbon copy of the Israeli security fence...a double layer fence with a road in the middle and all the bells and whistles. I don't know how it got to be more than that.
 
Grand Mal said:
So you advocate a wall full-length of the border?
Talk of ladders is kind of silly considering you'd have to get down the other side and depending on the design talk of ladders might be moot. I've seen designs that I know for a fact I could climb unassisted, and other designs I could easily toss a grapnel with a knotted rope over. Consider, too, that just a small percentage of illegal immigrants actually go cross-country. It's just that hiking is the cheapest and easiest option and if the wall were full-length those who can't get over it will use a more expensive and/or inconvenient option.
And you don't even know how much it'll cost. You sure you want to go into an open-ended financial committment? Because if you start it you won't be able to quit and I can easily see the whole endeavour turning the USA into a laughing-stock.
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I don't know if a wall the full length is even required. I'll leave that to others to figure out. I'm sure that there are places so desolate that nobody attempts to cross there and we can monitor those areas by other means if necessary. As for would be illegal immigrants using more expensive options, have you seen these people? More expensive options will not be possible for about 95% of them. There is no open ended financial commitment. You build it once and you're done except for routine upkeep which, I can assure you, will be infinitesimal compared to what illegal aliens are costing us.
 
At this time no emergency is needed. The wall will become a reality.
 
veritas1 said:
Yet, in areas where new walls were put up, apprehension of illegals has fallen dramatically. It's not that walls will stop every person wanting to get in but that once it becomes clear that most are failing, there will be a deterrent effect. There is no real argument about whether walls work. We all know that they do. The real question is why anyone would not be interested in further eliminating the passage of drugs, weapons and human cargo into the US.
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In fact, they are proven not to work at all unless they are actively patrolled. Then they work pretty well, if by 'they' you are referring to the people who patrol the wall. Apprehension requires law enforcement officers. It does not require a wall. Both together work pretty well. Law enforcement officers without a wall also works pretty well, as the last 20 years have proven. A wall without law enforcement officers doesn't work at all. There is no deterrent effect from a wall. There is a terrific deterrent effect from border patrol agents.

Increasing border patrol agents would help stem the tide of illegal immigration regardless of the presence of a physical wall much larger than a chain-link fence. Spending money on a wall rather than on more manpower would do exactly nothing to reduce illegal immigration. If manpower is reduced in order to fund the wall, illegal immigration will actually go up.
 
lwf said:
In fact, they are proven not to work at all unless they are actively patrolled. Then they work pretty well, if by 'they' you are referring to the people who patrol the wall. Apprehension requires law enforcement officers. It does not require a wall. Both together work pretty well. Law enforcement officers without a wall also works pretty well, as the last 20 years have proven. A wall without law enforcement officers doesn't work at all. There is no deterrent effect from a wall. There is a terrific deterrent effect from border patrol agents.

Increasing border patrol agents would help stem the tide of illegal immigration regardless of the presence of a physical wall much larger than a chain-link fence. Spending money on a wall rather than on more manpower would do exactly nothing to reduce illegal immigration. If manpower is reduced in order to fund the wall, illegal immigration will actually go up.
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Law enforcement without a wall is a failure. The number of illegal immigrants here now confirms this. Nobody is suggesting that we get rid of boots on the ground simply because the wall is there. You always need human resources. However, you'll need fewer of them than you do if there is no wall.
 
veritas1 said:
Law enforcement without a wall is a failure. The number of illegal immigrants here now confirms this. Nobody is suggesting that we get rid of boots on the ground simply because the wall is there. You always need human resources. However, you'll need fewer of them than you do if there is no wall.
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The number of border apprehensions has fallen by more than 80% in the past 20 years. You know why? Because the number of border patrol agents has increased by... you guessed it: about 80%
 
lwf said:
The number of border apprehensions has fallen by more than 80% in the past 20 years. You know why? Because the number of border patrol agents has increased by... you guessed it: about 80%
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Great, then imagine how few will get across when the wall is there.
 
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