• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Trump campaign staff had altercation with official at Arlington National Cemetery

Airyaman said:
That is a rule, not a law.
Click to expand...
It also wasn't violated - that guidance says that cemetery management retains the right to approve, disapprove or halt filming or photography that interferes with normal cemetery operations, violates a family's expressed desire for privacy or depicts VA inaccurately and/or Veterans negatively. Political or partisan activities of any nature, including filming of campaign ads, are not permitted on cemetery grounds. They would have to explain how Trump's presence interferes with normal operations, when Biden has had multiple visits with far more personnel involved. Also, the family's expressly desired Trump to be there, and nothing was reported inaccurately or negatively, and it wasn't for a campaign ad. The only thing they can claim is that it was for partisan activities - but, they would have to explain why Biden activities are not political/partisan, but Trump's are. Of course, that conflict is no issue for Progressives to resolve, because they just declare that Trump's intent is poltical/partisan and Biden's are not.
 
MrNiceGuy said:
Of course - the footage should not be edited., and I would like to see the whole thing.

However, "being told" by some kook is not the same thing as not being "permitted." There was no rule or regulation cited so far that said that Trump couldn't take photographs there. No rule is cited. It's alleged, but not cited, and we have images of multiple photo-op visits by Biden in and among the gravestones at Arlington, and this was never a problem, until Trump.

The Trump campaign did deny that the Trump campaign pushed and verbally abused whomever this was. Why didn't the reporter identify the person who was supposedly pushed? Wouldn't a reporter want to know that? The reporter is getting the news, right? So, let's hear what happened FROM THE PEOPLE WHO WERE THERE - not "persons with knowledge."

I am happy to allow for the logical possibilities - (a) the reporter is balls-on accurate and the Trump personnel walked right in there and were told they could not enter, but they then verbally abused and physically assaulted an employee of the US government, Arlington National Cemetary on the one hand, barged in and then violated some federal law prohibiting the photo op from even occurring (that's what the reporter reportered, right?), as described by the unnamed anonymous source who was not there,, or (b) the Trump campaign was entering the facility and some person having a mental breakdown tried to block Trump from entering (for what reason, we do not know) despite Trump being allowed to photograph there (which would explain how the long, several hour event could take place without anyone actually stopping it), as reported by the named, identified source who was actually there.

Do you credit both of those as logical possiblities? Or are you only willing to entertain (a)?

Does the reporting here concern you at all? Would it not be logical and reasonable for the reporter to have found out who was actually there when it occurred? Who was the employee actually pushed? Why no police report? If the photo op was not allowed or was illegal, why were the authorities not called at the time? Pushing a federal employee at Arlington - under the Department of the Army - is assault and battery, a crime.
Click to expand...
Prove there was a "kook" there.

They are only talking about the photo op at the grave site. That's the only part that was prohibited. He was allowed to photograph specifically at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier, where the actual wreath laying ceremony takes place. And individuals can photograph in the park. I know because I have photos from my own trip. There were rules though for what you could do while there. The issue was that you cannot use the grave sites for campaign, partisan photo ops, which is what Trump did.
 
ClaraD said:
So Arlington National Cemetery staff are ‘kooks’?
Click to expand...
Are staff immune from the normal panoply of behaviors, thoughts, feelings and defects that apply the rest of humanity?

I said nothing about the entirety of the staff. I referred to the one person referred to in the article, whom the named source is quoted as saying had a mental breakdown. It is certainly possible for an employee of any agency to have a mental breakdown, at least to the same extent/likelihood as the general population. They aren't floating in the air above us, immune from defect.
 
MrNiceGuy said:
It also wasn't violated - that guidance says that cemetery management retains the right to approve, disapprove or halt filming or photography that interferes with normal cemetery operations, violates a family's expressed desire for privacy or depicts VA inaccurately and/or Veterans negatively. Political or partisan activities of any nature, including filming of campaign ads, are not permitted on cemetery grounds. They would have to explain how Trump's presence interferes with normal operations, when Biden has had multiple visits with far more personnel involved. Also, the family's expressly desired Trump to be there, and nothing was reported inaccurately or negatively, and it wasn't for a campaign ad. The only thing they can claim is that it was for partisan activities - but, they would have to explain why Biden activities are not political/partisan, but Trump's are. Of course, that conflict is no issue for Progressives to resolve, because they just declare that Trump's intent is poltical/partisan and Biden's are not.
Click to expand...

I can see we have another Trump defender who has never been to Arlington and is unfamiliar with the rules of Section 60 at Arlington...
 
MrNiceGuy said:
Are staff immune from the normal panoply of behaviors, thoughts, feelings and defects that apply the rest of humanity?

I said nothing about the entirety of the staff. I referred to the one person referred to in the article, whom the named source is quoted as saying had a mental breakdown. It is certainly possible for an employee of any agency to have a mental breakdown, at least to the same extent/likelihood as the general population. They aren't floating in the air above us, immune from defect.
Click to expand...
Whom a member of the Trump staff claimed was having a mental health problem. You do know that Trump and his staff lie, a lot, right?

Much more likely is that Trump's campaign people lied.
 
MrNiceGuy said:
It also wasn't violated - that guidance says that cemetery management retains the right to approve, disapprove or halt filming or photography that interferes with normal cemetery operations, violates a family's expressed desire for privacy or depicts VA inaccurately and/or Veterans negatively. Political or partisan activities of any nature, including filming of campaign ads, are not permitted on cemetery grounds. They would have to explain how Trump's presence interferes with normal operations, when Biden has had multiple visits with far more personnel involved. Also, the family's expressly desired Trump to be there, and nothing was reported inaccurately or negatively, and it wasn't for a campaign ad. The only thing they can claim is that it was for partisan activities - but, they would have to explain why Biden activities are not political/partisan, but Trump's are. Of course, that conflict is no issue for Progressives to resolve, because they just declare that Trump's intent is poltical/partisan and Biden's are not.
Click to expand...
One family, not all, especially not all of those whom have loved ones buried in those graves around where Trump made his political photo.
 
ClaraD said:
So again you claim it’s okay for Trump to ignore the rules in place for visiting Arlington? Also, Blue cited it as law for you
Click to expand...
Never said that, but I am a person who likes facts. When a person says "law" then there should be a law passed by Congress and then signed by a president. This is not law, this is a regulation. There is a difference.

roguenuke said:
Those are part of the Code of Federal Regulation though. And when the park staff tell you that you are violating them, verbally and possibly physically assaulting them for trying to stop you definitely violates federal law.
Click to expand...

Do not debate that, but the article said "federal law" which would be inaccurate. The Code of Federal Regulations was authored by the Executive Branch of the government and is therefore not actually federal law.

This is the actual regulation:

www.law.cornell.edu

32 CFR § 553.32 - Conduct of memorial services and ceremonies.

www.law.cornell.edu www.law.cornell.edu

(c) Memorial services and ceremonies at Army National Military Cemeteries will not include partisan political activities.
Click to expand...
 
MrNiceGuy said:
It also wasn't violated - that guidance says that cemetery management retains the right to approve, disapprove or halt filming or photography that interferes with normal cemetery operations, violates a family's expressed desire for privacy or depicts VA inaccurately and/or Veterans negatively. Political or partisan activities of any nature, including filming of campaign ads, are not permitted on cemetery grounds. They would have to explain how Trump's presence interferes with normal operations, when Biden has had multiple visits with far more personnel involved. Also, the family's expressly desired Trump to be there, and nothing was reported inaccurately or negatively, and it wasn't for a campaign ad. The only thing they can claim is that it was for partisan activities - but, they would have to explain why Biden activities are not political/partisan, but Trump's are. Of course, that conflict is no issue for Progressives to resolve, because they just declare that Trump's intent is poltical/partisan and Biden's are not.
Click to expand...

The families do not have the authority to waive the regulations of the cemetery. There are other families whose loved ones are buried there.... For instance, Major Moises Navas whose grave Trump walked right past on the way to his photo op. Major Navas died in Iraq while Trump was CIC.
 
MrNiceGuy said:
Are staff immune from the normal panoply of behaviors, thoughts, feelings and defects that apply the rest of humanity?

I said nothing about the entirety of the staff. I referred to the one person referred to in the article, whom the named source is quoted as saying had a mental breakdown. It is certainly possible for an employee of any agency to have a mental breakdown, at least to the same extent/likelihood as the general population. They aren't floating in the air above us, immune from defect.
Click to expand...
You think a staff member is a kook for stopping them from violating the rules.
 
roguenuke said:
Whom a member of the Trump staff claimed was having a mental health problem. You do know that Trump and his staff lie, a lot, right?
Click to expand...
Everybody lies in politics, as do NPR reporters, and as do ANONYMOUS SOURCES referred to in articles making claims about things they did not actually witness.

You should ask the NPR reporter why he did not report who the individual was that claims to have been pushed and verbally abused. That's the person in question. Surely, the reporter would not have published an article like this without finding out who that person was, right?
roguenuke said:
Much more likely is that Trump's campaign people lied.
Click to expand...
Not even close. It is at least as likely that an anymous person who did not actually see the incident would lie about what happened. We have no way to vet or verify the report of that person. With regard to the Trump person, he's named an identified, so other reporters can go ask him - what happened? How do you know? Who was the person? Where is the video? The report you apparently believe and swallow whole is an anonymous report by an unnamed source. Did it ever occur to you that there were may other people there at the time? Why do you think the NPR reporter only relies on ONE source, who shall not be named? Why not talk to other people who were there, and ask them what happened? Isn't that interesting?
 
Airyaman said:
Never said that, but I am a person who likes facts. When a person says "law" then there should be a law passed by Congress and then signed by a president. This is not law, this is a regulation. There is a difference.



Do not debate that, but the article said "federal law" which would be inaccurate. The Code of Federal Regulations was authored by the Executive Branch of the government and is therefore not actually federal law.

This is the actual regulation:

www.law.cornell.edu

32 CFR § 553.32 - Conduct of memorial services and ceremonies.

www.law.cornell.edu www.law.cornell.edu
Click to expand...
No your claims reflect your opinion that’s it’s not important for him to follow the rules.
 
I am trying not to read too much into this. Admittedly it is difficult.

The bottom line for me is that Trump has disrespected people who have served honorably. I only need to go back to McCain -who was a POW - and even when given chance to leave the hell of captivity - elected to stay with his men. An amazing sacrifice. Disrespected and mocked by Trump. Openly. Think of all the POWs. Think of those "losers" who died - never making it home.

Him participating in this (whether or not there was a misunderstanding or even altercation) takes back seat to the fact that his "gesture" was an empty one.
The families of "losers" hopefully will understand how hollow the "gesture" was.

To Trump, anyone who was shot down would be a loser.

MAGA will probably see his comments as strength or make lame excuses for it.

How about this. You want to make America great. Disrespecting our troops and then making photo ops using them as a prop is probably not making America great.
 
MrNiceGuy said:
Everybody lies in politics, as do NPR reporters, and as do ANONYMOUS SOURCES referred to in articles making claims about things they did not actually witness.

You should ask the NPR reporter why he did not report who the individual was that claims to have been pushed and verbally abused. That's the person in question. Surely, the reporter would not have published an article like this without finding out who that person was, right?

Not even close. It is at least as likely that an anymous person who did not actually see the incident would lie about what happened. We have no way to vet or verify the report of that person. With regard to the Trump person, he's named an identified, so other reporters can go ask him - what happened? How do you know? Who was the person? Where is the video? The report you apparently believe and swallow whole is an anonymous report by an unnamed source. Did it ever occur to you that there were may other people there at the time? Why do you think the NPR reporter only relies on ONE source, who shall not be named? Why not talk to other people who were there, and ask them what happened? Isn't that interesting?
Click to expand...

So why have they not released the video of the encounter?
 
MrNiceGuy said:
Everybody lies in politics, as do NPR reporters, and as do ANONYMOUS SOURCES referred to in articles making claims about things they did not actually witness.

You should ask the NPR reporter why he did not report who the individual was that claims to have been pushed and verbally abused. That's the person in question. Surely, the reporter would not have published an article like this without finding out who that person was, right?

Not even close. It is at least as likely that an anymous person who did not actually see the incident would lie about what happened. We have no way to vet or verify the report of that person. With regard to the Trump person, he's named an identified, so other reporters can go ask him - what happened? How do you know? Who was the person? Where is the video? The report you apparently believe and swallow whole is an anonymous report by an unnamed source. Did it ever occur to you that there were may other people there at the time? Why do you think the NPR reporter only relies on ONE source, who shall not be named? Why not talk to other people who were there, and ask them what happened? Isn't that interesting?
Click to expand...
Show me where Trump denies it occurred
 
BlueTex said:
The families do not have the authority to waive the regulations of the cemetery. There are other families whose loved ones are buried there.... For instance, Major Moises Navas whose grave Trump walked right past on the way to his photo op. Major Navas died in Iraq while Trump was CIC.
Click to expand...
There is no regulation that says they can't photograph there. The link provided for the rules refers to photos not being permitted if it violates the family's expressed desire for privacy. No family has expressed a desire for privacy. There was not indication of any disruption of cemetary activities or political activities to any extent not also allowed for Joe Biden. There is no right for the cemetary personnel to arbitrarily allow Biden to do photo ops, but deny Trump.

There is no prohibition on photographing or walking past gravestones. You are making things up.
 
Airyaman said:
Never said that, but I am a person who likes facts. When a person says "law" then there should be a law passed by Congress and then signed by a president. This is not law, this is a regulation. There is a difference.



Do not debate that, but the article said "federal law" which would be inaccurate. The Code of Federal Regulations was authored by the Executive Branch of the government and is therefore not actually federal law.

This is the actual regulation:

www.law.cornell.edu

32 CFR § 553.32 - Conduct of memorial services and ceremonies.

www.law.cornell.edu www.law.cornell.edu
Click to expand...

If you go up one level in the link to the regulation you cited, you will find this section:

www.law.cornell.edu

32 CFR § 553.3 - Statutory authorities.

www.law.cornell.edu www.law.cornell.edu
 
ClaraD said:
You think a staff member is a kook for stopping them from violating the rules.
Click to expand...
Oh my god, what the holy ****?

No, I don't think the staff member was or wasn't a kook. I think the ****ing article in the OP quotes a named source as stating the person had a mental breakdown and tried to block their photographer AND that there is no rule violated here.

What rule are you claiming was violated? Jesus folks....
 
MrNiceGuy said:
It also wasn't violated - that guidance says that cemetery management retains the right to approve, disapprove or halt filming or photography that interferes with normal cemetery operations, violates a family's expressed desire for privacy or depicts VA inaccurately and/or Veterans negatively. Political or partisan activities of any nature, including filming of campaign ads, are not permitted on cemetery grounds. They would have to explain how Trump's presence interferes with normal operations, when Biden has had multiple visits with far more personnel involved. Also, the family's expressly desired Trump to be there, and nothing was reported inaccurately or negatively, and it wasn't for a campaign ad. The only thing they can claim is that it was for partisan activities - but, they would have to explain why Biden activities are not political/partisan, but Trump's are. Of course, that conflict is no issue for Progressives to resolve, because they just declare that Trump's intent is poltical/partisan and Biden's are not.
Click to expand...

It's grotesque. Doing a political statement at Arlington Cemetrary is like doing selfies at Auschwitz. Standing there smiling with the thumbs up sign really says it all.

The sad part is he's as responsible for her death as anyone.
 
Last edited:
MrNiceGuy said:
It also wasn't violated - that guidance says that cemetery management retains the right to approve, disapprove or halt filming or photography that interferes with normal cemetery operations, violates a family's expressed desire for privacy or depicts VA inaccurately and/or Veterans negatively. Political or partisan activities of any nature, including filming of campaign ads, are not permitted on cemetery grounds. They would have to explain how Trump's presence interferes with normal operations, when Biden has had multiple visits with far more personnel involved. Also, the family's expressly desired Trump to be there, and nothing was reported inaccurately or negatively, and it wasn't for a campaign ad. The only thing they can claim is that it was for partisan activities - but, they would have to explain why Biden activities are not political/partisan, but Trump's are. Of course, that conflict is no issue for Progressives to resolve, because they just declare that Trump's intent is poltical/partisan and Biden's are not.
Click to expand...
Where did they get permission to make a partisan political ad ?
 
MrNiceGuy said:
Oh my god, what the holy ****?

No, I don't think the staff member was or wasn't a kook. I think the ****ing article in the OP quotes a named source as stating the person had a mental breakdown and tried to block their photographer AND that there is no rule violated here.

What rule are you claiming was violated? Jesus folks....
Click to expand...
You called him a kook…you do realize the video was to make a campaign ad right?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom