Transgender policy question

[Lisa]

It's science, but it's the science of the anomaly, nevertheless. Nature is rife with anomalies. Intersex is one in 2000. Extrapolate that from a world population of 7.9 billion people, and that's a lot of intersex people. Science can't deny intersex, it's real. But, like transgenderism, an anomaly nevertheless.

As to how society wants to deal with it, that's up to society.

I say live and let live. If a guy wants to transform into a woman, go for it.

However, if that man sounds, looks, talks like a man in drag, I'll refer to him as a 'her', I'll even open the car door for the 'lady', I don't want to fight, but my mind will think of her as a man in drag, because, to me, that's what she is.

IF that were me, I'd call myself a transvestite, because, the way I look at the subject, that would be honest. If I got a penis, but want to look like a woman in an attempt to be a woman, then I'm a transvestite. Now, this is apart from the transvestite 'performers' who a straight or gay guys and do it as an art form, (who do not dress TV offstage) that's not what I'm talking about. If I got a penis, want to look like a woman, but still prefer women sexually, then I'm a crossdresser. A Tranny is gay, a CD is hetersexual, that's how I look it at.

Now, those, who truly are convincing, which is rare, my hats off to them if they can do it. But, I've lived in hollywood, and most I've seen looked like men in drag.

The use of the word Tranny is very offensive and it has been for 25+ years.

As to transgender sexual orientation,

Trans females who are gay are lesbians. Trans males who are also attracted to men are gay. Trans females who are attracted to men are heterosexual females.

 

[lwf]

Lmao - now you're changing the argument. The argument made was "being transgender is never a choice" - in your terms, that's an "implied universal principle" and yes, easy to disprove as I have multiple times.

Nice try. You are the one changing the argument here. I never said "being transgender is never a choice." I said "it is not the case that 'being transgender is a choice.'"

Consider:
"Being a Republican is a choice." - True universal premise
"Being a Christian is a choice." - True universal premise
"Being a doctor is a choice." - True universal premise

"Being confined to a wheelchair is a choice." - False universal premise
"Being gay is a choice." - False universal premise
"Being transgender is a choice." - False universal premise

 

[lwf]

It's science, but it's the science of the anomaly, nevertheless. Nature is rife with anomalies. Intersex is one in 2000. Extrapolate that from a world population of 7.9 billion people, and that's a lot of intersex people. Science can't deny intersex, it's real. But, like transgenderism, an anomaly nevertheless.

As to how society wants to deal with it, that's up to society.

I say live and let live. If a guy wants to transform into a woman, go for it.

However, if that man sounds, looks, talks like a man in drag, I'll refer to him as a 'her', I'll even open the car door for the 'lady', I don't want to fight, but my mind will think of her as a man in drag, because, to me, that's what she is.

IF that were me, I'd call myself a transvestite, because, the way I look at the subject, that would be honest. If I got a penis, but want to look like a woman in an attempt to be a woman, then I'm a transvestite. Now, this is apart from the transvestite 'performers' who a straight or gay guys and do it as an art form, (who do not dress TV offstage) that's not what I'm talking about. If I got a penis, want to look like a woman, but still prefer women sexually, then I'm a crossdresser. A Tranny is gay, a CD is hetersexual, that's how I look it at.

Now, those, who truly are convincing, which is rare, my hats off to them if they can do it. But, I've lived in hollywood, and most I've seen looked like men in drag.

Now, there are transfemales who want to rid themselves of their male genitalia.

Personally, good luck, but I think they are crazy. If you do that, you'll never experience an orgasm, ever again, which is one of nature's emotional relief valves. Hallelujah for the orgasm? You want to kill it? You're crazy, in my opinion.

If a Transfemale came to me and asked my advice on getting the 'chop' I'd try to talk her out of it. The reason is, no straight guy I know will find a post opTranny 'attractive', but there are some bi and gay guys who love them, and they are far more numerous than the rare male who would find a tranny who was post op as attractive sexually.

That would be my advice. Don't do it. In fact, you might change your mind when you get older, and post op, there is no coming back.

You certainly have the right to your opinion. No one is required to empathize with or understand the pain that transgender individuals have to live with, just as no one is required to recognize your identity or use your preferred pronouns. But others also have the right to publicly label you an asshole and shun you for your dismissal of gender dysphoria and your belief that a transwoman's worth is directly proportional to how attractive you or other men find her.

 

[Taylor]

Nice try. You are the one changing the argument here. I never said "being transgender is never a choice."

Great. Then you, like me, don't agree with Lisa. That was the argument made that I took issue with. That was the discussion you jumped into.

 

[lwf]

Great. Then you, like me, don't agree with Lisa. That was the argument made that I took issue with. That was the discussion you jumped into.

I do agree with Lisa. It is not the case that "being transgender is a choice."

 

[Lisa]

I do agree with Lisa. It is not the case that "being transgender is a choice."

There is absolutely no evidence that gender identity is a choice for anyone, be they CIS, transgender, or gender fluid. The fact that it cannot be changed by there or medication is further proof of this.

 

[OscarLevant]

You certainly have the right to your opinion. No one is required to empathize with or understand the pain that transgender individuals have to live with, just as no one is required to recognize your identity or use your preferred pronouns. But others also have the right to publicly label you an asshole and shun you for your dismissal of gender dysphoria

No, you're just making that up.

and your belief that a transwoman's worth is directly proportional to how attractive you or other men find her.

Again, you're making shit up.

I haven't 'dismissed' anything. Everyone has pain of some kind, so welcome to the club, TSers. I have nothing against Transpersons and I harbor no ill will of any kind,, and if you had read my comment, hell, I said I'd call a T-female a 'her', and I'd even open car doors for them, and treat them as I would treat any women. (or do you have a problem with a man opening a car door for a woman? ) What I said was how I feel about it, not how I'm going to treat anyone because of how I feel about it, a distinction which you have failed to notice. Hell, I'm a big fan of theatre and the arts, I lived in Hollywood for 20 years, where there are more gays and transpeople than in most parts of the US, and I was even a bartender in a gay bar, so please don't put words into my mouth.

 

[lwf]

There is absolutely no evidence that gender identity is a choice for anyone, be they CIS, transgender, or gender fluid. The fact that it cannot be changed by there or medication is further proof of this.

I hate to play devil's advocate here, but unfortunately very few identities are never a choice for anyone. In order to argue this, you have to go down the "no true Scotsman" slippery slope: How Scottish do you have to be to consider yourself a Scotsman? We could debate that ad nauseam. I know both a guy and a girl who never expressed any gender dysphoria in childhood, but became infatuated with the LGBTQ+ movement in college and each self-identified as trans for a while. The guy changed his name, dressed and attempted to pass as a woman for about four months, used she/her pronouns, and called herself a transwoman. The girl lasted about 6 months and came very close to starting hormone therapy. Both now have changed their names back, happily identify as cis, and are married with kids. They were exploring their identity in college as we all do, and they decided to "dabble" in "transgenderism." They had about as much in common with someone who has gender dysphoria as a rich white kid from the suburbs who decides to paint himself brown and live a "thug life" has with a black inner city kid. What do we make of this in light of our argument that transgender is never a choice? How do we account for these kinds of "gender tourists?"

We can say "They are not truly transgender, they are only confused or pretending." But this sounds an awful lot like the conservative argument: Replace the word "transgender" with "a woman" in that last sentence. A similar gray area exists with sexual orientation. If I decide to spend the next four months calling myself gay and only dating men, only to find that I prefer women and go back to being straight, what am I? Am I allowed to call myself gay during this exploration period? If so, is this choice of mine in any way comparable to the experience of someone who has always known they were gay from their very first feelings of romantic attraction? In this scenario I chose to identify as gay. But another person who identifies as gay never made that choice. It is simply who they are.

Unfortunately, in our culture, self-labels and behaviors can be chosen on the basis of freedom of speech, and so the definitions can be mixed and conflated. It is gender dysphoria that is never a choice. Because some people who identify as trans (most perhaps) have gender dysphoria, it is certainly inaccurate to make a sweeping claim that being transgender is a choice. For most, it most certainly isn't. But because some people who identify as trans do not have gender dysphoria, it is also inaccurate to make a sweeping universal claim that being transgender is never a choice, unless you want to start making judgments about which individuals are truly deserving of that label, and which individuals are misusing it, or should be prevented from using it. And that's a dangerous road to go down.

The conservative assumption that all transgender people are confused and pretending is false. But because some people exercise their right to explore their identities, gender, and preferred pronouns, conservatives have no shortage of examples where self identified transgender people are doing just that. The lethal mistake conservatives make is in assuming the authority to use legislation to discourage this sort of behavior in minors out of the fear that they may make life-altering decisions that they can't undo. This marginalizes children with gender dysphoria, and in attempting to artificially prevent children who don't have gender dysphoria from exploring their identities and making bad choices, they take medically necessary decisions out of the hands of medical professionals and in doing so victimize children with gender dysphoria who require gender affirmation therapy to survive adolescence.

 

[Lisa]

I hate to play devil's advocate here, but unfortunately very few identities are never a choice for anyone. In order to argue this, you have to go down the "no true Scotsman" slippery slope: How Scottish do you have to be to consider yourself a Scotsman? We could debate that ad nauseam. I know both a guy and a girl who never expressed any gender dysphoria in childhood, but became infatuated with the LGBTQ+ movement in college and each self-identified as trans for a while. The guy changed his name, dressed and attempted to pass as a woman for about four months, used she/her pronouns, and called herself a transwoman. The girl lasted about 6 months and came very close to starting hormone therapy. Both now have changed their names back, happily identify as cis, and are married with kids. They were exploring their identity in college as we all do, and they decided to "dabble" in "transgenderism." They had about as much in common with someone who has gender dysphoria as a rich white kid from the suburbs who decides to paint himself brown and live a "thug life" has with a black inner city kid. What do we make of this in light of our argument that transgender is never a choice? How do we account for these kinds of "gender tourists?"

We can say "They are not truly transgender, they are only confused or pretending." But this sounds an awful lot like the conservative argument: Replace the word "transgender" with "a woman" in that last sentence. A similar gray area exists with sexual orientation. If I decide to spend the next four months calling myself gay and only dating men, only to find that I prefer women and go back to being straight, what am I? Am I allowed to call myself gay during this exploration period? If so, is this choice of mine in any way comparable to the experience of someone who has always known they were gay from their very first feelings of romantic attraction? In this scenario I chose to identify as gay. But another person who identifies as gay never made that choice. It is simply who they are.

Unfortunately, in our culture, self-labels and behaviors can be chosen on the basis of freedom of speech, and so the definitions can be mixed and conflated. It is gender dysphoria that is never a choice. Because some people who identify as trans (most perhaps) have gender dysphoria, it is certainly inaccurate to make a sweeping claim that being transgender is a choice. For most, it most certainly isn't. But because some people who identify as trans do not have gender dysphoria, it is also inaccurate to make a sweeping universal claim that being transgender is never a choice, unless you want to start making judgments about which individuals are truly deserving of that label, and which individuals are misusing it, or should be prevented from using it. And that's a dangerous road to go down.

The conservative assumption that all transgender people are confused and pretending is false. But because some people exercise their right to explore their identities, gender, and preferred pronouns, conservatives have no shortage of examples where self identified transgender people are doing just that. The lethal mistake conservatives make is in assuming the authority to use legislation to discourage this sort of behavior in minors out of the fear that they may make life-altering decisions that they can't undo. This marginalizes children with gender dysphoria, and in attempting to artificially prevent children who don't have gender dysphoria from exploring their identities and making bad choices, they take medically necessary decisions out of the hands of medical professionals and in doing so victimize children with gender dysphoria who require gender affirmation therapy to survive adolescence.

How can any gender identity be a choice when they are innate and determined before birth? You can claim that it is a choice to act on it, but that applies equally to CIS as well as gender fluid or transgender. People are born trans and if they don't get the proper care they will die usually by suicide or because of alcoholism/drug addiction as they try to self-medicate. This is a fact.

There is nothing more to discuss.

 

[lwf]

How can any gender identity be a choice when they are innate and determined before birth? You can claim that it is a choice to act on it, but that applies equally to CIS as well as gender fluid or transgender. People are born trans and if they don't get the proper care they will die usually by suicide or because of alcoholism/drug addiction as they try to self-medicate. This is a fact.

There is nothing more to discuss.

Most are. Not all. I'm only pointing out that not all people who identify as trans can be lumped together into a single box. And lumping them all together is required if we try to make the argument that none of them have a choice in identifying as transgender. Many of them don't have a choice. Perhaps most of them don't. But it's not the case that all of them don't have a choice, and it is the ones that do make this choice and later regret it that conservatives use to marginalize the ones that don't.

 

[Lisa]

Most are. Not all. I'm only pointing out that not all people who identify as trans can be lumped together into a single box. And lumping them all together is required if we try to make the argument that none of them have a choice in identifying as transgender. Many of them don't have a choice. Perhaps most of them don't. But it's not the case that all of them don't have a choice, and it is the ones that do make this choice and later regret it that conservatives use to marginalize the ones that don't.

Nobody chooses their gender identity or sexual orientation. That is a fact of human sexuality, so all trans people were born trans. Stop being intellectually evasive and trying to create loopholes where none exist.

If they later regret it then they were never trans. They didn't choose that either. The regret rate is well under 10% for any reason.

 

[NatMorton]

"Being transgender is a choice." - False universal premise

Most of us are not claiming gender dysphoria is a choice. What we are saying is that it takes more than a politically charged mental health condition to make someone a man or a woman.

 

[Lisa]

Most of us are not claiming gender dysphoria is a choice. What we are saying is that it takes more than a politically charged mental health condition to make someone a man or a woman.

There is nothing political about it. It is the GOP and social conservatives that have tried to politicize a medical treatment where is not not welcome because t conservatives need a new boogeyman to kick around.

The current transgender treatment protocol is not perfect but it is what medical technology allows. When done correctly for a trans teen they are not any different visually from a CIS teen of the same gender identity. The problem comes when the trans person's body matures in the wrong gender, which the hormones and surgery cannot undo.

Do you think that care what you think? Leave them alone and live by the golden rule , or is that offensive to you?

 

[lwf]

Most of us are not claiming gender dysphoria is a choice. What we are saying is that it takes more than a politically charged mental health condition to make someone a man or a woman.

And the other side is saying that "woman" and "female," while closely correlated, are not inextricable synonyms. A mental health condition cannot change one's sex. But gender is not sex. It is nebulous and defined by society and by the individual. Sex cannot be changed. A male identifying as a female doesn't make them one. Gender can be changed. A male identifying as a woman can become one, since being a female is not a requisite for being a woman. And changing gender is a proven treatment for gender dysphoria.

 

[Lisa]

And the other side is saying that "woman" and "female," while closely correlated, are not inextricable synonyms. A mental health condition cannot change one's sex. But gender is not sex. It is nebulous and defined by society and by the individual. Sex cannot be changed. A male identifying as a female doesn't make them one. Gender can be changed. A male identifying as a woman can become one, since being a female is not a requisite for being a woman. And changing gender is a proven treatment for gender dysphoria.

Say what?

 

[NatMorton]

And the other side is saying that "woman" and "female," while closely correlated, are not inextricable synonyms. A mental health condition cannot change one's sex. But gender is not sex. It is nebulous and defined by society and by the individual. Sex cannot be changed. A male identifying as a female doesn't make them one. Gender can be changed. A male identifying as a woman can become one, since being a female is not a requisite for being a woman. And changing gender is a proven treatment for gender dysphoria.

Not when you define gender as being synonymous with sex, which is generally the definition I choose to use.

 

[lwf]

Say what?

Being female is not a requisite for being a woman or for being a girl. The correlation is high, but it is not 100%. Case in point: The woman below is and has always been a male. She was conceived with a Y chromosome. Due to androgen insensitivity she developed secondary sex characteristics traditionally associated with girls, so when she was born the doctor identified her as a girl. She didn't learn that she was male until puberty. She has lived her entire life as a girl, and is now a woman. But she is not female.

 

[lwf]

Not when you define gender as being synonymous with sex, which is generally the definition I choose to use.

But that definition is incorrect. While often mistakenly used as a synonym, sex and gender are different things. While they are closely associated, they are not inextricable. You are essentially using a less accurate definition in order to support your argument.

 

[Lisa]

Being female is not a requisite for being a woman or for being a girl. The correlation is high, but it is not 100%. Case in point: The woman below is and has always been a male. She was conceived with a Y chromosome. Due to androgen insensitivity she developed secondary sex characteristics traditionally associated with girls, so when she was born the doctor identified her as a girl. She didn't learn that she was male until puberty. She has lived her entire life as a girl, and is now a woman. But she is not female.

She likely has a female gender identity, which is also shared with trans females. If she has female genitalia that is a primary gender characteristic. Secondary female gender characteristics (hips and breasts) don't develop until puberty. Those obviouly were not possible at birth.

In humans, visible secondary sex characteristics include enlarged breasts and widened hips of females, facial hair and Adam's apples on males, and pubic hair on both.

Wiki, sex characteristics.

Caroline Cossey, was first thought to be MtF trans but it was discovered later that she has Kleinfelters and has XXXY genes. Shje was the first tramns female to do a nude spread in Playboy and was a Bond Girl.

Caroline Cossey - Susan's Place Transgender Resources

www.susans.org

 

[Integrityrespec]

The majority cannot trample on the rights of a minority merely because of their greater numbers. This is why the Bill of Rights exists to guarantee all people equal rights.

The only people who have a problem with trans people in bathrooms are transphobic bigots. Trans females are not a threat to anyone. Unless you look at someone's crotch you don't know that they are trans, so stop being a voyeur and mind your own business.

BS!

 

[Lisa]

BS!

Thanks for that well thought out and deeply moving reply.

What is it about trans people that makes you so uncomfortable or beings out your hatred? Do they make you feel icky because you are forced to accept that sex and gender are not black and white and very simple? Are you afraid of meeting a trans female and not knowing that she is trans so you might think that you are gay and your ego just cant take that questioning? Or is it just that society is changing to be more tolerant and open to people other than white heterosexual and CIS males and you don't like it.

 

[TheDoctorWasIn]

It's been noted on Twitter today that my home state's DOE has a policy that allows a public school student to use the locker room of their choice, i.e. the gender-specific locker room that they (the student) believes best matches their gender identity. The MA DOE goes further to say if other students feel uncomfortable about that, their best resource is counseling to 'foster understanding gender identity;" i.e. go to reeducation camp.

View attachment 67387965

The reality remains this: the trans student feels uncomfortable using a locker room with other students of the same biological gender. The non-trans student feels uncomfortable using a locker room with students of a different biological gender. So here's the question. Why are the trans-student's needs deemed to have the priority, always?

For the same reason that segregation isn't justified just because racists are "uncomfortable" around black people.

 

[lwf]

She likely has a female gender identity, which is also shared with trans females. If she has female genitalia that is a primary gender characteristic. Secondary female gender characteristics (hips and breasts) don't develop until puberty. Those obviouly were not possible at birth.


Wiki, sex characteristics.

Caroline Cossey, was first thought to be MtF trans but it was discovered later that she has Kleinfelters and has XXXY genes. Shje was the first tramns female to do a nude spread in Playboy and was a Bond Girl.

Caroline Cossey - Susan's Place Transgender Resources

www.susans.org

You're correct. I misspoke.

There needs to be a distinction between sex and gender. Simply using them synonymously means that trans-allies and the transphobic argue past each other. "You can't change biology..." "Yes you can..." and the arguments basically fizzle out there. You need to clearly define "sex" in a way that is 100% biologically and scientifically accurate while allowing for culturally and individually defined gender identity that doesn't necessarily match sex. It is at best slightly less accurate and at worst contributing to the spread of transphobia on the right to conflate sex with gender.

Sex is best defined by chromosomal makeup. If there is a Y chromosome, then the organism is a male. Gender is defined by individual identity and culture. Therefore, sex cannot be changed. Gender can be.

 

[Outlook]

It's been noted on Twitter today that my home state's DOE has a policy that allows a public school student to use the locker room of their choice, i.e. the gender-specific locker room that they (the student) believes best matches their gender identity. The MA DOE goes further to say if other students feel uncomfortable about that, their best resource is counseling to 'foster understanding gender identity;" i.e. go to reeducation camp.

View attachment 67387965

The reality remains this: the trans student feels uncomfortable using a locker room with other students of the same biological gender. The non-trans student feels uncomfortable using a locker room with students of a different biological gender. So here's the question. Why are the trans-student's needs deemed to have the priority, always?

I wonder what they would do to me if I went into a women's locker room here in Florida? The police would be call and I would be beaten by the naked women in the locker room.
99.9999% of adult males are not going to use a women's locker room. So why are they teaching secondary grade students that it's normal to do that? No wonder my daughter pulled her kids out of public school to homeschool.