TOUGH QUESTIONS

[tosca1]

This is my point. Is an atheist going to hell even if he does his best to treat his fellow man and nature with kindness and love? Is a Christian who believes with all his heart that Jesus is his Lord and Savior going to hell because he's happily married to his husband?

Nothing will save the atheist EXCEPT Jesus Christ!
No amount of good works will save you, without Christ.

The only good works that count to GOD, will be the good works you'll do AS A RESULT OF HAVING CHRIST IN YOU!


Jesus Christ had died for our sins - including that of the atheist.
That's why we needed the MESSIAH!
BUT, in order to benefit to that salvation - the atheist must accept and belong to Christ.

Because it's deflection. Look, I used to be a staunch young earth creationist. You can even find my creationist postings here in this forum. I'm not going to force you to scour my past to find my creationist posts, but as probably @dairyair can attest to, I was rather blunt about the prospect of you being doomed to hell. And if you actually believe in the things you post, you should be intellectually honest because people's souls are at stake.

You may have been a young earth creationist..................but you should still read the Bible.


How many times had Jesus warned us about the consequence of rejecting God?
How much more honest is that?


Those who don't belong to Christ will go to the place of eternal punishment.


That's the condition that's been put before us all.



That's right there. It's not a hidden agenda.

 

[tosca1]

Because it's deflection. Look, I used to be a staunch young earth creationist.

Another disgruntled ex-Christian!

You can even find my creationist postings here in this forum. I'm not going to force you to scour my past to find my creationist posts, but as probably @dairyair can attest to,
I was rather blunt about the prospect of you being doomed to hell. And if you actually believe in the things you post, you should be intellectually honest because people's souls are at stake.

Okay, be honest,

What sin didn't you want to give up?



You want the rules changed for you?


Even if all Christians here unanimously agree with you (and we all become like you)...............you think the rules will change?
All we'll achieve is join you in the afterlife!
We'll all be weeping and gnashing our teeth..............when we realize we've just made the biggest, "oooops."




You sound to me of a clear case of........................ wanting to have his cake and eat it, too.

 

[Maccabee]

Nothing will save the atheist EXCEPT Jesus Christ!
No amount of good works will save you, without Christ.

Then Christ is no better than me locking up my Nobel prize winning son in my torture basement for simply not loving me as he should. Best case scenario for me is he's refusing to love a father who was present and involved in his life. The reality is, I never showed my face, never proved i even existed to him, and relied on dubious messengers and writings with all sorts of contradictions, morally questionable acts, and claims that run against basic science in hopes that will convince him to love me as a father.

The only good works that count to GOD, will be the good works you'll do AS A RESULT OF HAVING CHRIST IN YOU!

So Jeffrey Dahmer, who allegedly repented in his later years before dying is in heaven while his victim, who left Christianity because of what he went through, is going to hell for simply not believing in a God that wont prove himself or save him from his trauma, correct?

Jesus Christ had died for our sins - including that of the atheist.
That's why we needed the MESSIAH!
BUT, in order to benefit to that salvation - the atheist must accept and belong to Christ.








You may have been a young earth creationist..................but you should still read the Bible.

I DID, read the Bible. It's what eventually lead me out of Christianity.

How many times had Jesus warned us about the consequence of rejecting God?
How much more honest is that?

Why is the consequences of rejecting a God that wont plainly make himself know eternal torture?

Those who don't belong to Christ will go to the place of eternal punishment.


That's the condition that's been put before us all.



That's right there. It's not a hidden agenda.

Why is that the case?

 

[Maccabee]

Another disgruntled ex-Christian!









Okay, be honest,

What sin didn't you want to give up?

Nothing, actually. I had a pretty robust defense for being a gay Christian for a good while. The thing I couldn't get past was God's genocidal episodes and his lackadaisical attitude towards slavery. Then there were the scientific inconsistencies. All in all, I was terrified by the prospect of having a big part of my life being a lie. I DIDN'T want to lose my faith, but if it meant that seeking the truth would cause me to lose my faith, then so be it.

You want the rules changed for you?









Even if all Christians here unanimously agree with you (and we all become like you)...............you think the rules will change?
All we'll achieve is join you in the afterlife!
We'll all be weeping and gnashing our teeth..............when we realize we've just made the biggest, "oooops."




You sound to me of a clear case of........................ wanting to have his cake and eat it, too.

It's kinda scary how caviler you're being about the prospect that if you're right, I'm going to hell and be tortured forever.

 

[LittleNipper]

Then Christ is no better than me locking up my Nobel prize winning son in my torture basement for simply not loving me as he should. Best case scenario for me is he's refusing to love a father who was present and involved in his life. The reality is, I never showed my face, never proved i even existed to him, and relied on dubious messengers and writings with all sorts of contradictions, morally questionable acts, and claims that run against basic science in hopes that will convince him to love me as a father.

You do know that CHRIST is the only SON of GOD and that all others must be adopted as GOD's Children through CHRIST. No contradictions are found in GOD's Holy Word.

So Jeffrey Dahmer, who allegedly repented in his later years before dying is in heaven while his victim, who left Christianity because of what he went through, is going to hell for simply not believing in a God that wont prove himself or save him from his trauma, correct?

Both had the same opportunities. All are warned that you cannot count on tomorrow because one never knows what a day will bring forth. You also realize that once saved always saved? One cannot lose his or her salvation.

I DID, read the Bible. It's what eventually lead me out of Christianity.

I believe you were led astray by the input for others who don't know what they are talking about and really don't care.

Why is the consequences of rejecting a God that wont plainly make himself know eternal torture?

Why is that the case?

The torture is the gnawing realization that one literally threw away so many chances to be saved, and now are faced with an eternity of IF ONLY and nothing more. Everyone will get to see CHRIST and experience a glimpse of heaven at the White Throne Judgment. But how do one recover from knowing what one missed out on and literally threw away.

 

[Maccabee]

You do know that CHRIST is the only SON of GOD and that all others must be adopted as GOD's Children through CHRIST. No contradictions are found in GOD's Holy Word.

What does that have to do with anything I just said?

Both had the same opportunities. All are warned that you cannot count on tomorrow because one never knows what a day will bring forth. You also realize that once saved always saved? One cannot lose his or her salvation.

Again, WHY is that the requirement? Accept Christ as your Lord and Savior or suffer for all eternity?

I believe you were led astray by the input for others who don't know what they are talking about and really don't care.

I'm glad you know every single aspect of my life to be able to throw out random wrong reasons why I left the faith except for the obvious reason: Christianity is a fraud and abusive belief system.

The torture is the gnawing realization that one literally threw away so many chances to be saved, and now are faced with an eternity of IF ONLY and nothing more. Everyone will get to see CHRIST and experience a glimpse of heaven at the White Throne Judgment. But how do one recover from knowing what one missed out on and literally threw away.

Again, WHY is that the punishment for ALL eternity?

 

[LittleNipper]

What does that have to do with anything I just said?

I'm sorry

Again, WHY is that the requirement? Accept Christ as your Lord and Savior or suffer for all eternity?

GOD demands perfection and Christ gives us perfection through HIM ----- but only if one wishes to accept CHRIST.

I'm glad you know every single aspect of my life to be able to throw out random wrong reasons why I left the faith except for the obvious reason: Christianity is a fraud and abusive belief system.

Again, WHY is that the punishment for ALL eternity?

I know nothing regarding the institution you once called Christian.

 

[Maccabee]

I'm sorry



GOD demands perfection and Christ gives us perfection through HIM ----- but only if one wishes to accept CHRIST.

Again, why?

I know nothing regarding the institution you once called Christian.

Aren't you a JW or LDS member?

 

[LittleNipper]

Again, why?

GOD is perfect. He doesn't demand anymore than HE is. And HE knew our predicament and provided a way that was really horrific for GOD to bear, but HE paid the ultimate price...

Aren't you a JW or LDS member?

I am neither. If you were an LDS, that would explain a lot.

 

[Maccabee]

GOD is perfect. He doesn't demand anymore than HE is. And HE knew our predicament and provided a way that was really horrific for GOD to bear, but HE paid the ultimate price...

If he knew our predicament, then why did he made us to where if we don't choose him, we'll spend eternity in torment?

I am neither. If you were an LDS, that would explain a lot.

Messianic Jew.

 

[LittleNipper]

If he knew our predicament, then why did he made us to where if we don't choose him, we'll spend eternity in torment?

GOD is the great equalizer. And in order to offer anyone eternal life, HE needed to provide for others exactly what they earned eternally.

Messianic Jew.

Well, as a "Messianic: Jew, did you believe Jesus was/is the Messiah ----- or was it something different?

 

[Metanoia]

GOD is perfect. He doesn't demand anymore than HE is. And HE knew our predicament and provided a way that was really horrific for GOD to bear, but HE paid the ultimate price

It seems a logical question: If God is perfect how could this happen on His watch ? It is quite easy to find fault with God but almost impossible to find fault with Jesus. Both are obligated to stand on their perspective records…..

 

[Maccabee]

Well, as a "Messianic: Jew, did you believe Jesus was/is the Messiah ----- or was it something different?

Yes. I believed that Jesus is Lord and the only way to get to heaven is to accept him as my personal Lord and Savior.

 

[LittleNipper]

Yes. I believed that Jesus is Lord and the only way to get to heaven is to accept him as my personal Lord and Savior.

What exactly made you change your mind?

 

[Maccabee]

What exactly made you change your mind?

As I've stated, I couldn't reconcile with God's genocidal episodes and lackadaisical attitude towards slavery. Plus the scientific inconsistencies and the whole prospect that an all knowing, all powerful, all good God who didn't want anyone to experience eternal punishment did so little to prevent most of the Earth's population from dying and experiencing eternal punishment.

 

[LittleNipper]

As I've stated, I couldn't reconcile with God's genocidal episodes and lackadaisical attitude towards slavery. Plus the scientific inconsistencies and the whole prospect that an all knowing, all powerful, all good God who didn't want anyone to experience eternal punishment did so little to prevent most of the Earth's population from dying and experiencing eternal punishment.

GOD doesn't like slavery, but HE regulated it. People were not stuck in slavery forever unless they wanted to remain a slave. Watch the video and you will see more than enough secular inconsistencies and the Bible exonerated. GOD doesn't make anyone love HIM. HE is slow to anger and gives everyone second chances in life to accept CHRIST. But if someone rejects the moving of the HOLY SPIRIT, GOD will not forgive that ----- they get what they wish ---- a world of their own. BUT without GOD it's a hopeless situation. Every so called "genocidal" episode (though GOD only recognizes the family of humanity and not races --- we are ALL Adam's children) occurred because the city states were totally evil and promoted baby sacrifices as the means to appease their false gods. And they were prone to sacrifice the defective & deformed. They were totally depraved and would have corrupted even Israel (and often did).

 

[Maccabee]

GOD doesn't like slavery, but HE regulated it.

Why? He could've easily made an outright ban like he did with eating pork or marrying your sister.

People were not stuck in slavery forever unless they wanted to remain a slave.

That's still abhorrent. No amount of time being a slave is justified.

Watch the video and you will see more than enough secular inconsistencies and the Bible exonerated. GOD doesn't make anyone love HIM.

Peak my interest. Explain one inconsistency that was addressed in the video you want me to watch.

HE is slow to anger and gives everyone second chances in life to accept CHRIST. But if someone rejects the moving of the HOLY SPIRIT, GOD will not forgive that ----- they get what they wish ---- a world of their own.

Again, why does it has to be forever, especially when he doesn't makes his presence easily recognizable? If I told you that you have to believe there's a pink invisible elephant in my garage otherwise you'll spend eternity being tortured, but my only source of evidence for my pink invisible elephant is a 2000 year old book and the insistence that you believe in my Pink invisible elephant, what kind of person am I?

BUT without GOD it's a hopeless situation. Every so called "genocidal" episode (though GOD only recognizes the family of humanity and not races --- we are ALL Adam's children) occurred because the city states were totally evil and promoted baby sacrifices as the means to appease their false gods. And they were prone to sacrifice the defective & deformed. They were totally depraved and would have corrupted even Israel (and often did).

God hated baby killing so much that he ordered his people to kill every man, woman, and child to drive a point?

 

[LittleNipper]

Why? He could've easily made an outright ban like he did with eating pork or marrying your sister.

And what would the man do who had lost all his money, but could hire himself out to feed his family?

That's still abhorrent. No amount of time being a slave is justified.

You do realize that there are more slaves in the world today than there were in ancient times? Over 30 Million people or even greater. Some are enslaved because they are war prisoners. Some are enslaved because they are criminals. Some sell themselves into bondage ----- often called prostitution.

Peak my interest. Explain one inconsistency that was addressed in the video you want me to watch.

The video referenced is regarding the Astrophysicists who speaks about the speed of light and what Einstein suggested.

Again, why does it has to be forever, especially when he doesn't makes his presence easily recognizable? If I told you that you have to believe there's a pink invisible elephant in my garage otherwise you'll spend eternity being tortured, but my only source of evidence for my pink invisible elephant is a 2000 year old book and the insistence that you believe in my Pink invisible elephant, what kind of person am I?

The Old Testament is older than 2000 years. GOD only wants us to accept the MESSIAH as our SAVIOR from sins we already know we have done and do. Simply by reading the Bible one should perceive that man is incapable of being very reasonable and wanders aimlessly about getting himself into all sorts of mischief.

God hated baby killing so much that he ordered his people to kill every man, woman, and child to drive a point?

GOD knows everything. HE even knows what is in your heart this very moment. I can fully suspect what motives are in the minds of children raised by Nazis. Would that they'd mature to help Jews escape, but I think they were indoctrinated and "knew" Jews to be scoundrels and corrupting Aryan culture and deserving of annihilation. HOWEVER, the reality is that Hitler is reaping what he sowed and would never repent from. He was once a little child. Think about that for a moment. Where is he now and is that justice?

 

[Maccabee]

And what would the man do who had lost all his money, but could hire himself out to feed his family?

The creator of the universe is morally constrained by the monetary needs of his chosen people? The same God that provided manna, water, and quail in the desert can't somehow provide the financial needs of slave owners who now have to pay their servants and allow them to leave of their own volition? Setting aside all that, what about the pork farmer who suddenly lost his business because pork is considered unclean? What about the brother/sister couple betrothed to be married who now have find unrelated partners to marry?

You do realize that there are more slaves in the world today than there were in ancient times? Over 30 Million people or even greater. Some are enslaved because they are war prisoners. Some are enslaved because they are criminals. Some sell themselves into bondage ----- often called prostitution.

It's ok for God to allow slavery back then because we still have slavery now? Well I guess it's ok for God to command his people to commit genocide because we have genocides today, amiright?

The video referenced is regarding the Astrophysicists who speaks about the speed of light and what Einstein suggested.

Timestamp?

The Old Testament is older than 2000 years

Irrelevant. My point was made.

. GOD only wants us to accept the MESSIAH as our SAVIOR from sins we already know we have done and do. Simply by reading the Bible one should perceive that man is incapable of being very reasonable and wanders aimlessly about getting himself into all sorts of mischief.

God relies on our ignorance in order to remain faithful to him?

GOD knows everything. HE even knows what is in your heart this very moment. I can fully suspect what motives are in the minds of children raised by Nazis. Would that they'd mature to help Jews escape, but I think they were indoctrinated and "knew" Jews to be scoundrels and corrupting Aryan culture and deserving of annihilation. HOWEVER, the reality is that Hitler is reaping what he sowed and would never repent from. He was once a little child. Think about that for a moment. Where is he now and is that justice?

What does that have to do with the fact that God commanded his people to kill every man, woman, and child of various cities and nations they conquered?

 

[devildavid]

Good question.

Why does God allow Satan to exist? Period.
All He had to do is eliminate Satan.
So, why is Satan still around?


Simple answer:
Satan has a role to play in God's purpose.




Why does God permit Satan's attacks on us?



I. Understanding Satan’s Role and Nature

Satan, whose name means “adversary,” is depicted throughout Scripture as one who opposes God and His people (1 Chronicles 21:1). He first appears in Genesis 3 as the deceiver in the Garden of Eden (cf. Genesis 3:1-5).
The Book of Job provides a more detailed glimpse of Satan’s activity: he appears before God, seeking permission to afflict Job in order to test his faith (Job 1:6-12).
Satan’s primary aim is to undermine divine purposes by inciting rebellion, disbelief, and separation from God.
He operates as a fallen angel-still under God’s ultimate sovereignty-but with a measure of influence in the present world (Ephesians 2:2).



The Sovereignty of God Over Evil

Despite Satan’s hostile actions, Scripture consistently affirms that God rules over all creation (Psalm 103:19). The narrative in Job underscores this truth: Satan is only permitted to attack Job within limits set by God (Job 2:6). Although evil exists and Satan is real, nothing and no one surpasses the Almighty in authority. This sovereignty means that God can use even the enemy’s intentions for a greater purpose, mirroring Joseph’s words in Genesis 50:20, “You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good…”.


lII. The Testing and Refinement of Faith
One primary reason Scripture gives for God’s permitting Satan’s attacks is the testing and strengthening of believers. In the epistle of James, readers are exhorted, “Consider it pure joy, my brothers, when you encounter trials of many kinds, because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance” (James 1:2-3). These trials may include spiritual assaults orchestrated by Satan. As illustrated by the refining process of precious metals, moments of difficulty can remove impurities and refine a believer’s character (1 Peter 1:6-7).



lV Demonstrating Genuine Endurance

V. Spiritual Growth Through Dependence on God
VI. Protection Through Obedience and Prayer

VII. Illustrations from Job and Other Accounts
VIII. Free Will and the Reality of Choice
IX. Pointing to God’s Ultimate Victory
X. Assurance of Salvation and Hope


XI. Conclusion

God’s permission of Satan’s attacks aligns fully with His sovereign plan, refining believers to demonstrate true faith, compelling deeper dependence on divine power,
and highlighting the ultimate victory accomplished in Christ.
These attacks reveal the reality of spiritual warfare, the necessity of prayerful vigilance, and the preciousness of a faith proven genuine.

As Scripture assures, God has set a definitive end to satanic activity, ensuring that all suffering and opposition will cease under His everlasting reign (Revelation 21:4).
Such hope encourages perseverance and trust in the One who works all things for good (Romans 8:28).

Why does God permit Satan's attacks on us?

God doesn’t just allow Satan to exist. God created Satan. God wanted Satan to exist. Satan works for God. They are in cahoots. Just ask Job.

 

[tosca1]

God doesn’t just allow Satan to exist. God created Satan. God wanted Satan to exist. Satan works for God. They are in cahoots. Just ask Job.

God created an angel -

who later had decided - by his own free will - to rebel against GOD.
This rebellious angel was driven out of Heaven - and he became known as SATAN.

 

[tosca1]

Nothing, actually. I had a pretty robust defense for being a gay Christian for a good while.

I wouldn't go there.
We all sin. We know what we do.
We also know what is required from us.

We'll answer to HIM....................and, ONLY HIM..........in the end.

The thing I couldn't get past was God's genocidal episodes and his lackadaisical attitude towards slavery.

Have you done any bible study on those subjects?

Then there were the scientific inconsistencies.

What scientific inconsistencies?


You do know that the BIBLE is NOT a science text book.............RIGHT?



Listen my dear brother,

What you should be awed about, are not the so-called scientific inconsistencies,

but rather, the BIBLICAL statements in the Bible, that we NOW know, can be taken LITERALLY.............

.........because..............

.................SCIENCE DISCOVERED THEM AND REAFFIRMED WHAT'S BEEN STATED IN THE BIBLE!




As an example:

How many times did the Bible refer to the universe as............expanding?
For so long, we simply took that as a poetical rendering............but not anymore!
It's a literal description!

All in all, I was terrified by the prospect of having a big part of my life being a lie. I DIDN'T want to lose my faith, but if it meant that seeking the truth would cause me to lose my faith, then so be it.

It's kinda scary how caviler you're being about the prospect that if you're right, I'm going to hell and be tortured forever.

<hugging you>


I'm glad you opened up.


I don't think you're losing your faith.

It's okay to question.
For by questioning, is how we also discern.



But...........if you're seeking the truth, you shouldn't stop there.
You have to seek for it.

STUDY the BIBLE.

I use a KJV Bible study bible.
It explains about customs and traditions of the time, terminologies, the verses, etc..,

 

[tosca1]

Then there were the scientific inconsistencies.

There are no scientific inconsistencies.


Who would've have thought the snake used to have limbs and wasn't on its belly?
But that's what the bible said about the snake (Adam and Eve narrative)..........it got cursed to get on its belly!
Science just recently confirmed that within what? the last 20 or so years?

Snakes had back legs for 70 million years before losing them, new fossil shows ​

Snake evolution has intrigued scientists for years because they knew that these complex vertebrates once had limbs and adapted over time to live without them in dramatic fashion.


But a limited fossil record didn’t reflect how that transition happened since snakes first appeared during the upper Middle Jurassic Period between 163 to 174 million years ago.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/20/world/snake-evolution-hindlimbs-scn

Science doesn't know how it happened.
The Bible tells us how it happened.


Also - the Bible uses so many different figures of speech.
So, don't give me the mustard seed as an example of scientific inconsistency. Okay?




Conclusion on Literary Diversity

In studying the broad range of genres-Law, historical narrative, poetry, wisdom, prophecy, Gospels, epistles, and apocalyptic-it becomes clear that Scripture weaves together a unified message.
Across these literary forms, the consistent revelation of God’s character, moral law, redemptive plan, and the centrality of Christ points to the cohesive nature of the Bible.

Scholarship on ancient manuscripts, along with archaeological findings confirming names and events, supports confidence in Scripture’s historical reliability.
Each genre, approached according to its literary style, testifies to a message that has remained intact through centuries of transmission.
As you explore these diverse forms, the cohesive narrative and doctrinal unity highlight the trustworthy and dynamic nature of the biblical text.

What are the genres and literary forms in the Bible?

 

[tosca1]

It's kinda scary how caviler you're being about the prospect that if you're right, I'm going to hell and be tortured forever.

I know I'm right. There's no "if" about it.
That's what the Bible says.



If I sound "cavalier" about the prospect of hell...............maybe, it's because skeptics have been so cavalier about it - that some even say outright they'd rather go to hell than be with God.................


......................and some so-called Christians seem to be more into finding faults with GOD than humbly accepting His will.

 

[tosca1]

Then Christ is no better than me locking up my Nobel prize winning son in my torture basement for simply not loving me as he should. Best case scenario for me is he's refusing to love a father who was present and involved in his life. The reality is, I never showed my face, never proved i even existed to him, and relied on dubious messengers and writings with all sorts of contradictions, morally questionable acts, and claims that run against basic science in hopes that will convince him to love me as a father.



So Jeffrey Dahmer, who allegedly repented in his later years before dying is in heaven

REPENTED.

while his victim, who left Christianity because of what he went through, is going to hell for simply not believing in a God that wont prove himself or save him from his trauma, correct?

There are verses about forgiveness..........

and this prayer that Jesus had taught us............

"forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us."



We both don't know what will transpire between Dahmer and God, and between his victim and God.
That's between them (individually) and GOD, when the time comes.

How God will judge Dahmer and his victim, is none of our business!



Anyway.....

Why would you jeopardize your own salvation over an issue which does not concern you?

As Jesus had said........................what is it to you?

I DID, read the Bible. It's what eventually lead me out of Christianity.

Why is the consequences of rejecting a God that wont plainly make himself know eternal torture?

Why is that the case?

Simple answer?
He is the Creator. He can do whatever He wants with His creation.

Would you agree that an artist has the prerogative to do whatever he wants with his work?
same principle.


BUT, instead of throwing everything in the garbage - God had decided to give mankind another chance.
This time - through the saving grace of the Messiah.
Your choice.


If you don't like His rules - and you say you're out of Christianity (I hope not) - why do you care?