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Total taxation in the US is one of the lowest in the developed world

Well, I don't want government to do more because of ideology. I want government to do more (in the case of health insurance) because it's cheaper.

Sorry calling BS on that. Government is almost never cheaper. The only reason for it to do things is outlined in the Constitution, things that are necessary for government and health care is not one of them.
 
The easiest arguments to beat are arguments with the proposition of 'none' or 'all'. Now an intelligent proposition might include the notion that you don't agree with the argument that we should have progressive taxation, but telling us there is NO rational argument is wrong and therefore irrational.

The argument for progressive taxation is that is more likely delivers equal pain to those taxed; an equitable distribution of the burden. Again, our income tax system taxes discretionary income (income after basic living expenses). The progressive system is lighter on those with the least discretionary income and taxes those with greater discretionary income at at a greater rate. The theory is that the "pain" of paying the tax is distributed equally.

Secondly, taxing those at the lower end of income spectrum at a relatively greater rate than those at the higher end is to tax those with a higher propensity to consume greater than those with a lower propensity. The significance of this is that taking money from people that drive demand (higher propensity to consume) tends to slow an economy when compared to taxing those that would otherwise save rather than consume. So, from an economic stimulus stand point, a regressive tax tends to slow the economy.

Now, those are my rational arguments, here are many others:

https://mic.com/articles/3150/three-simple-reasons-why-we-need-progressive-tax-rates#.j2dELzUZV
Economist's View: Why Tax Rates Should be Progressive
Reducing income inequality is in everyone?s interest; the argument for progressive taxes | Northwest Voices | Seattle Times


There is, indeed, many rational arguments in favor of progressive taxation. That fact you do not like the arguments or like the end proposition does not change that fact.

progressive taxation is the best solution for politicians in societies where everyone can vote no matter how little taxes they pay. It was created to help politicians
 
Hospitals already make the individual's spouse or parents (if they are a minor) liable for payment. They will even put a lean against any sort of settlement they have. The problem is you can't get water from a rock. If someone shows up at an emergency room needing critical care and racks up 50k or more in Medical bills, then chances are their spouse or parents don't have that kind of money and thus the hospital goes unpaid.

You know as well as I that it is not easy to make parents liable for debts of grown daughters. And you probably realize that catastrophe health insurance is inexpensive enough for the great majority to pay.
 
Nobody has complained that we give welfare to low income workers or said that wages are too high.

Are you kidding me!?!?! Trump himself said the minimum wage was too high. Conservatives screech endlessly about people abusing welfare (ignorant of their own welfare reform they championed the last 20 years). All you people want to do is get rid of welfare, SNAP...you've made it central to your own argument when it comes to saving taxpayers' money. So now you're telling me that was all just BS and we should take you at face value now??? Get real.


We have said that welfare should not be a long term commitment or that it should be generation after generation.

Which it is! Thanks to the welfare reform you all wanted. Yet today, we hear endless complaints from you people about the abuse of welfare. So this sets up a real issue for you; you can't argue that there's people abusing the welfare system because you're the ones who reformed it. And if there are people abusing it, they only do so because of the reform you produced.


not as a never ending wage subsidy without addressing the root causes of why they are poor in the first place.

They're poor because they don't get paid enough. And you oppose raising the minimum wage. So how is this not a case of you perpetuating a problem you created in the first place!?!?!?


you want to improve who the economy works for by taking more from the rich and giving the poor more?

The economy will improve if there is a more equal distribution of income. Right now, there isn't. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer. Then you come along and want to slash the programs that bridge the gap between WalMart wages and a livable wage. You talk out of both sides of your mouth, poorly.


You could care less about the actual economy itself, just as long as the poorer get more.

Wow dude...you seriously need to get a grip. Fact is, you cannot defend the current economy which showers the rich in wealth because doing so would mean you'd have to defend Obama.


So, you should quit talking about the economy and using it as a scapegoat for wealth redistribution.

Trickle-down economics is just another term for redistribution of wealth. Only in that case, the wealth is distributed upward, not downward.
 
The only reason for it to do things is outlined in the Constitution, things that are necessary for government and health care is not one of them.

So the government isn't supposed to keep people healthy so they can work and pay taxes?
 
What's wrong with income disparity? It doesn't bother me. There are people who earn more in one day than I will earn in my entire life. We live in a society where EVERYONE has the opportunity to go from being paupers to filthy stinking rich. Oprah Winfrey went from pauper to multi-billionaire. Many sports superstars go from poverty to multi-millionaires. Same with Hollywood celebrities and lottery winners. Teenagers go from poor to billionaires by inventing successful websites and apps. If it is the rich's obligation to share their success with everyone else then let's take billions of dollars away from Oprah, sports superstars, Hollywood celebrities, lottery winners, and millionaire teenagers and write checks to everyone poorer than them. I get sick and tired of liberals wanting to go after successful businesspersons but it is OK for Oprah and all of the others to keep their millions and billions. If it is the rich's obligation to take care of everyone else then ALL of the rich can pony up. Let's make a law that anyone, ANYONE, who has more than one million dollars has to give everything over that to everyone else who has less. Celebrities always have their very big mouths open but they are the biggest hypocrites of all, living in luxury while demanding that those evil business persons need to share all of their wealth.

A good question.

Extreme income disparity is a sign of structural weakness in an economy.

Extreme inequality is a symptom of a broken society | Voices

There must be an equitable distribution of fruits of labor or a society can not sustain itself (note I said equitable, not equal...people have to agree the fruits of labor have been split in a fair manner). Without an equitable distribution of income (and wealth) we end of up a bifurcated society, where the interests of groups clash and often can be mutually exclusive. This tears at the political fabric of a nation. At some point, the society no longer works and it fails. How close is the US to that point?

Forbes Welcome
How income inequality hurts America - Sep. 25, 2013
https://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/sdn/2015/sdn1513.pdf
What's So Bad About Income Inequality? | Gallup
http://www.uscatholic.org/articles/201306/economics-inequality-why-wealth-gap-bad-everyone-27421

Moreover, concentration of wealth in the hands of those that do not spend it is a bit of a vacuum of economic growth as that money no longer circulates within the system. You need a strong consumer class to drive economic growth. That consumer class is typically middle to upper middle income. Wealth disparity usually takes it toll on that group. You can not have solid growth in a society that is bifurcated economically.

https://lanekenworthy.net/is-income-inequality-harmful/
http://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs.../14/why-inequality-is-bad-for-economic-growth
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2015/06/why-income-inequality-is-bad-for-growth/

Of course, the US has one of the worst records of income inequality in the world...

http://www.oecd.org/social/income-distribution-database.htm
 
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You know as well as I that it is not easy to make parents liable for debts of grown daughters. And you probably realize that catastrophe health insurance is inexpensive enough for the great majority to pay.

Its illegal to make a parent responsible for the debts incurred by a grown child. Why on earth should it be legal?
 
A good question.

Extreme income disparity is a sign of structural weakness in an economy.

Extreme inequality is a symptom of a broken society | Voices

There must be an equitable distribution of fruits of labor or a society can not sustain itself (note I said equitable, not equal...people have to agree the fruits of labor have been split in a fair manner). Without an equitable distribution of income (and wealth) we end of up a bifurcated society, where the interests of groups clash and often can be mutually exclusive. This tears at the political fabric of a nation. At some point, the society no longer works and it fails. How close is the US to that point?

Forbes Welcome
How income inequality hurts America - Sep. 25, 2013
https://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/sdn/2015/sdn1513.pdf
What's So Bad About Income Inequality? | Gallup
http://www.uscatholic.org/articles/201306/economics-inequality-why-wealth-gap-bad-everyone-27421

Moreover, concentration of wealth in the hands of those that do not spend it is a bit of a vacuum of economic growth as that money no longer circulates within the system. You need a strong consumer class to drive economic growth. That consumer class is typically middle to upper middle income. Wealth disparity usually takes it toll on that group. You can not have solid growth in a society that is bifurcated economically.

https://lanekenworthy.net/is-income-inequality-harmful/
http://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs.../14/why-inequality-is-bad-for-economic-growth
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2015/06/why-income-inequality-is-bad-for-growth/

Of course, the US has one of the worst records of income inequality in the world...

The US economy is the best and largest in the world. Our economy has sustained itself for over 200 years. I don't read links because both sides can pull up cherry picked links to prove whatever they want so I'm not going to read your cherry picked links and I'll return the favor by not putting up my own cherry picked links. All your nonsense is nothing but jealously of rich. You guys would have a lot more credibility if you would just admit it.
 
The US economy is the best and largest in the world. Our economy has sustained itself for over 200 years. I don't read links because both sides can pull up cherry picked links to prove whatever they want so I'm not going to read your cherry picked links and I'll return the favor by not putting up my own cherry picked links. All your nonsense is nothing but jealously of rich. You guys would have a lot more credibility if you would just admit it.

Very weak indeed. In debate, you must answer my evidence with evidence or back down. You don't get away with that limp retort. Let me see your "cherry picked links"....

You asked what is wrong with income inequity, I told you, supported by over 10 articles (I could give you 10 fold more), that included Forbes, US News, the Economist....So, indulge me. You don't have to agree, but you do have to defend your position. Kindly produce 5 articles that refute my position from equivalent credible sources -- (maybe not, as you can't. Really, who is going to tell you that income or wealth inequality is a good thing? You know that is a ridiculous position to take.)

What I think is going on here is..... well, this visual came to mind.

PDHeadInSand.webp

We appreciate the fact that you want to live in your own little world, with you own made-up facts. You are not going to read my links because you know the truth and the evidence is overwhelming against the little voices in your head that tell you otherwise...

The US has thrived for 200 years... but we are now 225+ years old. The income and wealth inequality is a more recent development in our economic life. As a matter of illustration, the Roman Empire did well for 500 years. Because we were strong in the past does not mean our future is bright. BTW, what makes the US economy "the best"? That seems a bit subjective.

"...Past performance is not always indicative of future results..."
 
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The government shouldn't have to confiscate more than 15% of someone's earnings in order to function. I find it sickening that it's even as high as 24% (which I think after FICA and state taxes is deceptively low). It's sad when "having lower taxes" means you pay less than countries taxing people 40% of what they make... That's nearly HALF! Just let that sink in...
 
FOOLS GOLD

I'm not done with you. He was duly elected.

If I can deal with 8 years of Obama, you can deal with 4 or 8 of Trump. How you deal with it is up to you. You aren't off to a good start, criticism should be constructive, you have some work to do to get up to constructive. Better get on with it.

I don't play cards.

I give the statistical facts and my opposition gives me hard-sell disclaimers that say I am "postulating", or "dreaming" or whatever.

The sad fact is that the Right wing of America politics is constituted of some very selfish people who confuse hard-work with big-money. Ipso facto, the rich deserve their megabucks. Iow, the two go together. When in fact, they don't. The two just happen together because tax-rates under Reagan were instituted to create the rip-off that gushes Income into Wealth in America.

I have showed the statistical data of the gush-upwards of Income to Wealth, and the SOLE REASON is unfairly low taxation at 30%. I also indicated a study that showed the US has some of the lowest taxation of any developed country on earth. Neither does the Gini Index posted convince people statistically that income is unfairly distributed amongst the population.

In the face of some hard facts, it is incomprehensible that the truth should not be self-evident. But it isn't - not in the US and certainly not in this forum. There is not much that either you or anyone else on the Right-side in this forum have indicated to refute the above sad conclusions.

Face it - the US is money-pump for the rich and super-rich - and yet, that is the will of the people.

Because, if they wanted something different, then they would have voted for it. But, no, we-the-sheeple are infatuated by the rich and their megabucks.

And we'd like to win the BigLottery so we can be JUST LIKE THEM!

All of which rhymes with Fools Gold ...
 
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I'm not going to spend any time on this type of radical BS blather, but here you go:

Pie chart of 'federal spending' circulating on the Internet is misleading | PolitiFact

I have read the article, and it does NOT pertain to the pie-chart that I have showed.

My pie-chart is "discretionary spending". The article relates to non-discretionary spending - so the relevant numbers are very different.

Look at the elements in both pie-charts. They are very, very different because yours linked does NOT contain the same expense elements as the discretionary pie-chart.

Ipso facto, the percentages are also different ...
 
I see you are going with 100% or 0%. Is something in between out of the question? We need a flatter tax code and by that I mean plateaued, progressive tax code in which there are fewer deductions but a lower percentage taken, because a tax code full of holes only benefits tax preparers, lawyers and lobbyists.

I keep seeing complaints about the actual code versus the charged percent. That's actually fixable. But there isn't much of an incentive for government to do it. Its how they horse trade and pay political favors. Making compromises to make the tax code more basic is something that needs done.

Good post. I agree with most of it, would only quibble with some of it..... I am a big believer in the progressive tax system. The reality is, however, that for all of our complexity we really have a bit of a de facto flat tax now (see chart below) ...so, why not restructure the code for simplicity, keeping it some what flat, but making it more progressive in the process.

Taxes -  paid by income group.gif
 
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Its illegal to make a parent responsible for the debts incurred by a grown child. Why on earth should it be legal?

I was not talking about doing this the liberal way. I was thinking of changing the law. It would give the parents an incentive. I should have thought that obvious to anyone talking about changing laws. ;)

But as I said, it was only one of many possible set of rules that can be structured. If you don't like this one that's fine. But it would be cool to hear how you want to restructure 15 percent + of GDP, cut it by about half etc. without doing all sorts of heavy damage.
 
He said he takes the write-offs allowed by law. He didn't confirm he didn't pay any taxes for all the years implied.

Did you watch the video?

There is a maximum time and amount per year that can be claimed.

If he made $500 million in that years, but lost the $916 million also, that is negative income, hence no taxes paid.

Why is that a problem?

As he pointed out. Hillary had a chance to try to change the law, but she didn't.

I watched and I read and he confirmed he pays no taxes because of that write off.

And it is a problem because paying taxes is an obligation of a citizen and for Trump or anyone else to game the system - a system the rich helped write and foster in the first place - is a slap in the face to every average American who does pay federal income taxes with a modest income.

And now Trump is in charge of the executive branch of the federal government which is in charge of collecting those taxes and penalizing people who fail to do so.

And that is why there is a problem.
 
The government shouldn't have to confiscate more than 15% of someone's earnings in order to function. I find it sickening that it's even as high as 24%
I'm growing weary of this 24% farce. That's an average of what comes out of your paycheck. The average US citizen pays over 50% of their earnings to taxes.

When you spend "your" money, there's a 7% sales tax. There's also an embedded 23% tax to the cost of every product you purchase due to the largest corporate tax rate in the world.

Other taxes:
-Car tags
-Property tax
-Capital gains
-Cell phone surcharges
-Airline flights
-Gasoline tax
-Unemployment insurance tax
-Social Security
-Medicare/Medicaid
-Electricity/Natural Gas
-Cable Television surcharges
-Sin taxes (Beer, whiskey, cigs)
-Increased costs due to tariffs
-Death/Estate tax
-Hotel rooms
-Insurance premium taxes
-Licenses and permits (Marraige license, drivers license, fishing license, hunting permits, medical license)
-Traffic citations
-Passports cost $135
 
I'm growing weary of this 24% farce. That's an average of what comes out of your paycheck. The average US citizen pays over 50% of their earnings to taxes.

When you spend "your" money, there's a 7% sales tax. There's also an embedded 23% tax to the cost of every product you purchase due to the largest corporate tax rate in the world.

Other taxes:
-Car tags
-Property tax
-Capital gains
-Cell phone surcharges
-Airline flights
-Gasoline tax
-Unemployment insurance tax
-Social Security
-Medicare/Medicaid
-Electricity/Natural Gas
-Cable Television surcharges
-Sin taxes (Beer, whiskey, cigs)
-Increased costs due to tariffs
-Death/Estate tax
-Hotel rooms
-Insurance premium taxes
-Licenses and permits (Marraige license, drivers license, fishing license, hunting permits, medical license)
-Traffic citations
-Passports cost $135

Your number is off

All levels of government spent 6.4 billion in the US in 2015. Personal income for 2015 was over 15 billion. Include business taxes and government debt and the amount paid would be closer to 35%
 
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Your number is of

All levels of government spent 6.4 billion in the US in 2015. Personal income for 2015 was over 15 billion. Include business taxes and government debt and the amount paid would be closer to 35%


ALL levels of government spent $6.4 billion last year? Wow, I wanna see where this turd stat originated. CNN?

Los Angeles spent $8.6 billion last year. EDIT: Sorry, L.A. spent 8.76 billion.
 

This link says total US government spending this year is estimated at $7.04 trillion. Divided by 320 million Americans is $22,000 for each man, woman, child, disabled, homeless, pensioner, etc. The median wage in the US is $26,000. And that's just the people actually working for a living which doesn't include infants, retirees, homeless, indigent, and handicapped.

I know you're trying to make some point about how I'm not paying enough, but I'm just perhaps not bright enough to understand where you're going with it. If I were smart enough to finagle the tax laws, I could have figured out years ago how to borrow millions of dollars and then use the bankruptcy laws to steal that money. And then I could run for president and no one would even care that I was a thief. Because hey, I have a hot daughter and a big jet and ****.
 
This link says total US government spending this year is estimated at $7.04 trillion. Divided by 320 million Americans is $22,000 for each man, woman, child, disabled, homeless, pensioner, etc. The median wage in the US is $26,000. And that's just the people actually working for a living which doesn't include infants, retirees, homeless, indigent, and handicapped.

I know you're trying to make some point about how I'm not paying enough, but I'm just perhaps not bright enough to understand where you're going with it. If I were smart enough to finagle the tax laws, I could have figured out years ago how to borrow millions of dollars and then use the bankruptcy laws to steal that money. And then I could run for president and no one would even care that I was a thief. Because hey, I have a hot daughter and a big jet and ****.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/216756/us-personal-income/

Personal income in the United States from 1990 to 2015 (in billion U.S. dollars)
This statistic shows the total personal income in the United States from 1990 to 2015. The data are in current U.S. dollars not adjusted for inflation or deflation. According to the BEA, personal income is the income that is received by persons from all sources. It is calculated as the sum of wage and salary disbursements, supplements to wages and salaries, proprietors' income with inventory valuation and capital consumption adjustments, rental income of persons with capital consumption adjustment, personal dividend income, personal interest income, and personal current transfer receipts, less contributions for government social insurance. Personal income increased to about 15.46 trillion U.S. dollars in 2015.

us-personal-income-.webp

If you want to include all forms of taxation, all forms of income should be included as well
 
Your number is off

All levels of government spent 6.4 billion in the US in 2015. Personal income for 2015 was over 15 billion. Include business taxes and government debt and the amount paid would be closer to 35%

that's just flat wrong. there are three or four hundred people who alone had several billion in combined income alone.
 
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