To White Apologists/Liberals, Can you explain why Asians do so well?

[soot]

How do whites and Asians start on the same spot in the playing field again? On what basis are you speaking from? As an Asian who grew up in a 65%+ African American community, I felt like I was on the same footing as many of my African American peers. How did the institutions in place "give me 10 years (wtf does that even mean)"?

Let's just call you an outlier and ignore you.

I don't mean that in a dispariaging way.

But the example of one Asian is no more relevant than holding up President Obama and going, "Look! See? What are Blacks talking about?"

Because clearly President Obama didn't come up the same way as the majority of Blacks to whom these theories would apply came up. The man had well educated, empowered parents, one of whom was white, and even his black Grandfather was an empowered man.

 

[ocean515]

Not a conclusion.

A randomly chosen example.

You wanna call it 9 or 11 1/2 that's perfectly fine with me.

So long as we acknowledge that it exists.

Your thesis depends on a number you admit does not correlate to anything.

Without a hull, how does your boat float?

 

[hidingrpolitics]

Let's just call you an outlier and ignore you.

I don't mean that in a dispariaging way.

But the example of one Asian is no more relevant than holding up President Obama and going, "Look! See? What are Blacks talking about?"

Because clearly President Obama didn't come up the same way as the majority of Blacks to whom these theories would apply came up. The man had well educated, empowered parents, one of whom was white, and even his black Grandfather was an empowered man.

I understand your point. Mine is that if you look at Asians 25 years ago, we were no wealthier than African Americans. At what point do we stop blaming institutional racism and start promoting a culture that emphasizes education, family, and personal responsibility again? My questions are somewhat leading in nature. I am trying to point out why I believe that "racism" in this country can be overcome and stereotypes changed but only through peaceful, unhypocritical action. That is what made MLK so impressive; he did not race-bait, he merely stated that we are created equal in the eyes of our Creator. Asians are much more respected today than we were 30 years ago, but this could not have been achieved by protesting a boogie man. Some issues are truly legitimate, but the legitimacy wanes with each failed race baiting hypocrisy. Instead, Asians worked their butts off as a demographic to earn the reputation Asians have today. There is no reason others cannot do the same.

 

[Wehrwolfen]

Excellent! Of course it totally goes against the Leftist narrative.

You on the Left who want to have a conversation about race, start with this video.

Unfortunately they won't respond because they know that solving the problem the right way would give them nothing to fight about.

 

[soot]

Your thesis depends on a number you admit does not correlate to anything.

Without a hull, how does your boat float?

I agree.

My thesis needs correcting.

I initially said:

Whites and Asians are starting at the same spot on the playing field. Blacks are being penalized 10 years (as a result of racisim) at the starting gun.

In light of petty scrutiny and due to the inability of members of this community to think independently and abstractly I'll amend it, for the purposes of discussion, as follows:

The majority of Whites, though not all, and the majority of Asians, though not all, are starting at roughly, though not in all cases identically, the same spot on the playing field. Blacks, taking into consideration what was said in post #23 above, are being penalized N number of years years (which can vary depending upon individual life circumstances and as a result of racisim) at the starting gun. While individual examples can be cherrypicked to disprove this theory on an individual basis the fact remains that as a group Blacks have no been able to achieve the same degree of success as Whited or Asians in America and in order to explain that we need either assume that Blacks are racially inferior or that the circumstances from which the majority of Blacks in Americans have decended has, at times, played a signifigant role in the Black Americans' maladaption to contemporary American socio-economics and culture.

Of course we can refine it still further but a.) we're not exactly conducting an experiment or formulating an official theory and b.) I like to labor under the illusion that I'm not discussing this with idiots, retards, or third-graders, so I'm going to trust that you can think and behave like an adult.

 

[ocean515]

I understand your point. Mine is that if you look at Asians 25 years ago, we were no wealthier than African Americans. At what point do we stop blaming institutional racism and start promoting a culture that emphasizes education, family, and personal responsibility again? My questions are somewhat leading in nature. I am trying to point out why I believe that "racism" in this country can be overcome and stereotypes changed but only through peaceful, unhypocritical action. That is what made MLK so impressive; he did not race-bait, he merely stated that we are created equal in the eyes of our Creator. Asians are much more respected today than we were 30 years ago, but this could not have been achieved by protesting a boogie man. Some issues are truly legitimate, but the legitimacy wanes with each failed race baiting hypocrisy. Instead, Asians worked their butts off as a demographic to earn the reputation Asians have today. There is no reason others cannot do the same.

One other thing that is a real part of your observation.

Within the life time of many people living in the United States today, Asians, unfortunately, were considered the enemy of the United States. That is a sad fact.

Yet, that seems to have been overcome completely.

 

[WCH]

Unfortunately they won't respond because they know that solving the problem the right way would give them nothing to fight about.

Essentually, they would be out of a job.

 

[soot]

I understand your point. Mine is that if you look at Asians 25 years ago, we were no wealthier than African Americans.

Wealth isn't really the issue.

Cultural dysfunction is the issue.

Asians 25 years ago weren't raised by parents whose own grandparents were held as slaves by the very majority group they're competing with in this country for success (and you're kidding yourself if you don't think that we're ALL competing).

You've got to understand something. I'm 40 years old. I was 9 years old at the time the last African American who had begun his life as a slave died.

It wasn't that long ago.

At what point do we stop blaming institutional racism and start promoting a culture that emphasizes education, family, and personal responsibility again?

Personally, I think we're long past that point where we should have begun doing that.

I don't think free cheese, Section 8, and affirmative action is the right solution. I don't even think they're part of the right solution.

But we've got to come at it from the right angle.

And unless and until we look at the totality of the Black experience in America and stop acting like Blacks have the same history here as Whites and Asians, or worse that they need to "stop crying about something that happened 150 years ago", we're setting ourselves up for failure.

My interest in this isn't that Blacks "get their due". I'm not about reperations at all. My interest is that I see a problem and I think we need to solve it. But unless we're working on solving the right problem we're not actually going to solve anything at all.

My questions are somewhat leading in nature. I am trying to point out why I believe that "racism" in this country can be overcome and stereotypes changed but only through peaceful, unhypocritical action. That is what made MLK so impressive; he did not race-bait, he merely stated that we are created equal in the eyes of our Creator. Asians are much more respected today than we were 30 years ago, but this could not have been achieved by protesting a boogie man. Some issues are truly legitimate, but the legitimacy wanes with each failed race baiting hypocrisy. Instead, Asians worked their butts off as a demographic to earn the reputation Asians have today. There is no reason others cannot do the same.

I agree with everything you've said here.

But again, we can't pretend that Asians have or had the same "issues" and "problems" as Blacks in America.

Because you haven't and didn't.

Given where Blacks came from I think they've (as a "race") made enormous progress, especially when taken as individuals.

But they've still got a long ways to go in many respects and for the good of this country, and for the good of our culture (and not necessarially for the good of Black Americans) I think we owe it to ourselves to find effective ways of expediting the process.

 

[ocean515]

I agree.

My thesis needs correcting.

I initially said:



In light of petty scrutiny and due to the inability of members of this community to think independently and abstractly I'll amend it, for the purposes of discussion, as follows:

The majority of Whites, though not all, and the majority of Asians, though not all, are starting at roughly, though not in all cases identically, the same spot on the playing field. Blacks, taking into consideration what was said in post #23 above, are being penalized N number of years years (which can vary depending upon individual life circumstances and as a result of racisim) at the starting gun. While individual examples can be cherrypicked to disprove this theory on an individual basis the fact remains that as a group Blacks have no been able to achieve the same degree of success as Whited or Asians in America and in order to explain that we need either assume that Blacks are racially inferior or that the circumstances from which the majority of Blacks in Americans have decended has, at times, played a signifigant role in the Black Americans' maladaption to contemporary American socio-economics and culture.

Of course we can refine it still further but a.) we're not exactly conducting an experiment or formulating an official theory and b.) I like to labor under the illusion that I'm not discussing this with idiots, retards, or third-graders, so I'm going to trust that you can think and behave like an adult.

I don't think you need to invest in so many words, nor do I think it necessary to lable responses as petty.

A simple observation was made, and a general question asked.

The only thing petty, in my opinion, is your long winded intellectually flawed attempt to dismiss other posters query.

Considering the flavor of your conclusionary words, the intellectual elistist should rarely be taken seriously, and for good reason.

 

[soot]

I don't think you need to invest in so many words, nor do I think it necessary to lable responses as petty.

A simple observation was made, and a general question asked.

The only thing petty, in my opinion, is your long winded intellectually flawed attempt to dismiss other posters query.

Considering the flavor of your conclusionary words, the intellectual elistist should rarely be taken seriously, and for good reason.

I made a perfectly legitimate rebuttal of the OP.

Just because you don't like it doesn't make it "flawed".

Wrong is wrong, and he was wrong.

You found fault with my theory, so I amended it.

You see?

That's the way intelligent adult conversation works.

We don't cling to silly idiological biases.

Now, granted, if you weren't clinging to silly idiological biases, and weren't being petty, you could have amended my initial comments yourself and said, "Yeah, in theory that makes sense".

But I don't think you're really capable of that.

Now, go ahead and take the last word.

With the OP and hidingrpolitics here you're really kinda extraneous so I'm not gonna bother bickering with you any further. If you make a good point I'll consider it, but I'm not gonna go back and forth with you over how I'm an elitist and you're a rube.

 

[sharon]

It's about Blacks...stay on narrative!

Blacks from the rural south were usually illiterate and had a farm culture that included large families to help with farm work.

Read about the black migrations to Chicago in the 1920s and 1930s... and the thriving black middle class .. Then read about the second migration of illiterate farm families.

 

[Wehrwolfen]

Wealth isn't really the issue.

Cultural dysfunction is the issue.

Asians 25 years ago weren't raised by parents whose own grandparents were held as slaves by the very majority group they're competing with in this country for success (and you're kidding yourself if you don't think that we're ALL competing).

You've got to understand something. I'm 40 years old. I was 9 years old at the time the last African American who had begun his life as a slave died.

It wasn't that long ago.



Personally, I think we're long past that point where we should have begun doing that.

I don't think free cheese, Section 8, and affirmative action is the right solution. I don't even think they're part of the right solution.

But we've got to come at it from the right angle.

And unless and until we look at the totality of the Black experience in America and stop acting like Blacks have the same history here as Whites and Asians, or worse that they need to "stop crying about something that happened 150 years ago", we're setting ourselves up for failure.

My interest in this isn't that Blacks "get their due". I'm not about reperations at all. My interest is that I see a problem and I think we need to solve it. But unless we're working on solving the right problem we're not actually going to solve anything at all.



I agree with everything you've said here.

But again, we can't pretend that Asians have or had the same "issues" and "problems" as Blacks in America.

Because you haven't and didn't.

Given where Blacks came from I think they've (as a "race") made enormous progress, especially when taken as individuals.

But they've still got a long ways to go in many respects and for the good of this country, and for the good of our culture (and not necessarially for the good of Black Americans) I think we owe it to ourselves to find effective ways of expediting the process.

Selling drugs, killing people, and creating fatherless children, then claiming you are owed certainly is not the way to go about it. .

 

[ABC10]

Sure, this is easy. Asians are smarter then anyone else at 115 IQ then Ashkenazi Jews at 120. I remember back in the 70's when 7/11 were going out of business cause of robbery and murders. The influx from Vietnam came and saved them. At my local one, Grandmother and mother were in the kitchen cooking, the dad and kids were stocking the store and standing the cash register while a few uncles were on the roof with their AKs to guard the store and the people in it. Wonderful folk who have pride in themselves, standards, polite, hard working people.
Sadly, American blacks are stuck in the hip hop culture with a 73% unmarried birth rate and undervalue education. slavery was 150 years ago and the end of Jim Crow over 60. Immigrant blacks are very successful in this USA.

 

[greyhat]

I would attribute these differences to culture and how one has embraced America's promise of rewards through hard work while the other has embraced a victim approach and blames the systems of the past. Lets not kid ourselves slavery was bad and it has had a lasting impact on African Americans but as a society we've made many efforts to right that wrong, it takes time but it also takes letting go. African Americans with long roots in the US have to at some point understand that America is different; the old days are gone by and the best way to honor their ancestors that suffered to help build this country is to excel and reach that promised land of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

IMO MLK would be ashamed of Sharpton and Jackson, and their ever growing attempt to play the race card!

Oh and by the way, Asians had it bad in the US in the past; Chinese men died by the thousands during the construction of the Railroads and while not enslaved suffered many harms and discrimination, yet five generations later they don't sit around blaming the past. And for those that have forgotten we even interned US citizens of Japanese descent during World War II and that was only 60 or so years ago, yet Japanese Americans moved on and prospered.

We can't just ignore the past, but you can't also allow it to hold you down.

 

[ocean515]

I made a perfectly legitimate rebuttal of the OP.

Just because you don't like it doesn't make it "flawed".

Wrong is wrong, and he was wrong.

You found fault with my theory, so I amended it.

You see?

That's the way intelligent adult conversation works.

We don't cling to silly idiological biases.

Now, granted, if you weren't clinging to silly idiological biases, and weren't being petty, you could have amended my initial comments yourself and said, "Yeah, in theory that makes sense".

But I don't think you're really capable of that.

Now, go ahead and take the last word.

With the OP and hidingrpolitics here you're really kinda extraneous so I'm not gonna bother bickering with you any further. If you make a good point I'll consider it, but I'm not gonna go back and forth with you over how I'm an elitist and you're a rube.

Not to worry. I hope to never make a good point with you. Far from being extraneous, you appear to be redundant.

 

[longview]

I am not sure if many Vietnamese refuges had enough American history to
know that the trail they followed to success was blazed by a freed slave
named Booker T Washington.
I wonder how much greater the US could have been if the freed slaves
had followed Booker T Washington's philosophy as opposed to Du Bois?

 

[greyhat]

I am not sure if many Vietnamese refuges had enough American history to
know that the trail they followed to success was blazed by a freed slave
named Booker T Washington.
I wonder how much greater the US could have been if the freed slaves
had followed Booker T Washington's philosophy as opposed to Du Bois?

Explain?

 

[ABC10]

I am not sure if many Vietnamese refuges had enough American history to
know that the trail they followed to success was blazed by a freed slave
named Booker T Washington.
I wonder how much greater the US could have been if the freed slaves
had followed Booker T Washington's philosophy as opposed to Du Bois?

I doubt most Americans has that much American History let alone the hard working Vietnamese.

 

[longview]

Explain?

Washington stated that the way to integrate freed slaves into
mainstream society was by earning respect through hard work, and education.
Washington argued that the surest way for blacks to gain equal social rights was to demonstrate
"industry, thrift, intelligence and property."
and
"blacks would eventually gain full participation in society by showing themselves to be responsible,
reliable American citizens."
Washington believed each generation could, through hard work and education advance into
ever higher levels of society.
You can read more about his disagreements with Du Bois here.
Booker T. Washington - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[greyhat]

Washington stated that the way to integrate freed slaves into
mainstream society was by earning respect through hard work, and education.
Washington argued that the surest way for blacks to gain equal social rights was to demonstrate
"industry, thrift, intelligence and property."
and
"blacks would eventually gain full participation in society by showing themselves to be responsible,
reliable American citizens."
Washington believed each generation could, through hard work and education advance into
ever higher levels of society.
You can read more about his disagreements with Du Bois here.
Booker T. Washington - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Ok, Locke had great ideas too, many which were incorporated into our founding documents; I suppose he is also responsible? No offense, but it sounded like you were taking something away from Asians' own path to success.

B. Washington and DuBois both fought for equality in their own way; they too would be ashamed of Sharpton and Jackson...

 

[longview]

Ok, Locke had great ideas too, many which were incorporated into our founding documents; I suppose he is also responsible? No offense, but it sounded like you were taking something away from Asians' own path to success.

B. Washington and DuBois both fought for equality in their own way; they too would be ashamed of Sharpton and Jackson...

No slight at all in the direction of Asians, they did it right, and deserve all of the respect
their labors and struggles have earned them.
My pondering was, how much better we could have been, if the freed slaves had followed the
same path 75 years before the Vietnamese.
I would like to think we would have had less racial strife.
I know there were many other factors, Teddy Roosevelt hanging the buffalo solders out to dry
after Brownsville, harmed the pride of the black community more than can be measured.

 

[lolabird]

you constantly see complaints about how the reason blacks under-perform on standardized tests is because the tests are "culturally biased" against them. So why do the asians do so much better? their "culture" is as much, if not more, different from "white culture" as is "black culture". If "cultural bias" of the test is the reason for poor performance.....logically, asians would do just as poorly as blacks. but that is not the case. So...what is the difference between blacks and asians that allows one to do well and the other not?

In life, people from culturally diverse backgrounds are treated differently for varying reasons. Those reasons should be related to behavior and attitude, nor race.

 

[greyhat]

No slight at all in the direction of Asians, they did it right, and deserve all of the respect
their labors and struggles have earned them.
My pondering was, how much better we could have been, if the freed slaves had followed the
same path 75 years before the Vietnamese.
I would like to think we would have had less racial strife.
I know there were many other factors, Teddy Roosevelt hanging the buffalo solders out to dry
after Brownsville, harmed the pride of the black community more than can be measured.

Very few people, black, white etc, even know about the Buffalo soldier episode; this isn't what is holding African Americans back...

 

[OscarB63]

Very few people, black, white etc, even know about the Buffalo soldier episode; this isn't what is holding African Americans back...

true, in general, most americans are woefully ignorant about their own history.

 

[Mustachio]

So white apologists, please tell me why it is the system that is rigged against minorities when the most successful demographic in America is a minority! From my standpoint, the true racists are those who spout accusations of racism at every corner.

What about for Jews? They're a minority and they do pretty well. The truth is that being a minority has nothing to do with it. It's not about race. It's about the social, cultural, and economic conditions of your parents and their parents. A third of the immigrant population is Asian (those who have just arrived). So if you're an Asian, you likely are amongst the first few generations of Americans within your family. It is very difficult to come to America at all, much less to come here and thrive. Just to survive, you must be extremely hard working and persistent. You need help, so you have strong family values. These are the qualities that will be passed down to your children and their children. Those who came here and did not have that drive probably went back home or died without starting a family and planting their roots.

This is my theory on why Asians are the most successful racial demographic in America. I work with a number of black people - some are first generation immigrants from Africa, others have a long line of ancestors in America. Two completely different groups of people. It is ignorant to group all black people together, it would be like saying that Americans and British people are culturally identical because of the color of their skin. As a liberal, I do think that the system is rigged against the black, inner city population, but it's not because of their race. It's because they came from a long line of people who were born poor and died poor. They had families by mistake, or because of convenience. They didn't have access to quality education so they never got a good job. These are the people we should be helping - and by helping, I mean cleaning up cities, offering shelters, education, and health care to slowly take the place of welfare. If you don't think the system is rigged against these people, try to put yourself in the shoes of a kid who has 5 brothers brought up by a single mother in the middle of Detroit. A lot of conservatives will say that even in those conditions they would prosper. That's wrong. They'd be screwed.