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To the French: Lafayette we are here, where are you?

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To the French: Lafayette we are here, where are you? Have our bonds forged through mutual revolution been severed? Are we not still allies? Lafayette, my sword and my honor are still at your side but where are your people, have they forgotten? Have we?
 
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Diogenes took the words out of my mouth. I dont know what those on the right expect from France. A trench buddy? Brothers in arms? No. They have their own government, and can complain and whine about all they want. They haven't attacked us. They won't. They oppose American imperialism. Does it exist? Thats another debate. But please, the "War on Terrorism" isn't a World War.
 
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Hogwash. A long list of French aristocrats contributed themselves and their resources to the American Revolution 8 years before support for the revolution was made official policy. Some even defied direct orders from Louis to aid and take part in the revolution. Regardless of your current bias against France none of you can avoid saying that the French were absolutley essential to victory in the Revolution when faced with the facts. Without the French we would have lost. The bias stretches back to the Continental Congress which shafted most of those individuals by not honoring it's agreements and contracts with them.
 
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Napoleon's Nightingale said:
Hogwash. A long list of French aristocrats contributed themselves and their resources to the American Revolution 8 years before support for the revolution was made official policy. Some even defied direct orders from Louis to aid and take part in the revolution. Regardless of your current bias against France none of you can avoid saying that the French were absolutley essential to victory in the Revolution when faced with the facts. Without the French we would have lost. The bias stretches back to the Continental Congress which shafted most of those individuals by not honoring it's agreements and contracts with them.
I never said anything to the contrary, the French contributed greatly to our revolution, thus the battle cry of the American G.I. during WW1: "Lafayette we are here." I think you missed my whole point.
 
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Trajan Octavian Titus said:
I never said anything to the contrary, the French contributed greatly to our revolution, thus the battle cry of the American G.I. during WW1: "Lafayette we are here." I think you missed my whole point.
I was not reffering to you. Sorry, should have made that clear.
 

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Napoleon's Nightingale said:
Hogwash. A long list of French aristocrats contributed themselves and their resources to the American Revolution 8 years before support for the revolution was made official policy. Some even defied direct orders from Louis to aid and take part in the revolution. Regardless of your current bias against France none of you can avoid saying that the French were absolutley essential to victory in the Revolution when faced with the facts. Without the French we would have lost. The bias stretches back to the Continental Congress which shafted most of those individuals by not honoring it's agreements and contracts with them.
Thank you for emphasizing my point that it was the French monarchy and the French aristocrats who supported the US revolution. The French republic has never been our friend.
 
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Diogenes said:
Thank you for emphasizing my point that it was the French monarchy and the French aristocrats who supported the US revolution. The French republic has never been our friend.
The French Republic has always been our friend however there were some individuals in the French Republic who were somewhat hostile towards America for the following primary reasons:
1. The American Revolution bankrupted France.
2. The Continental Congress refused to honor it's agreements and contracts with
the French state and with those individuals.
You ignore the fact that MANY French aristocrats were part of the French Republic and played major roles.
 

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Napoleon's Nightingale said:
The French Republic has always been our friend...
Every time they needed us.

You ignore the fact that MANY French aristocrats were part of the French Republic and played major roles.
Yes, and they paid for it with their lives under the guillotine.
 
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Diogenes said:
Every time they needed us.
ROFL. Can you name 1 American who aided or took part in the French Revolution? No. Can you name one instance in which the Continental Congress honored it's agreements and contracts with French aristocrats? No. Most of the French bourgeoisie and aristocratic contributers to the American Revolution contributed because they genuinely believed in the cause. I can turn that back around at you and say that the U.S. is only friends with France when we need them. After the French provided us with the means to win our war against the British and we won the Continental Congress stabbed France in the back.

Diogenes said:
Yes, and they paid for it with their lives under the guillotine.
Thats a lie. Most of the aristocrats and bourgeoisie who aided the American Revolution were not executed. Those that were were not executed for taking part in the American Revolution..they were executed because Robespierre was a paranoid homicidal nutcase who saw plots against the Republic everywhere and believed they were a threat to the Republic.
 

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Napoleon's Nightingale said:
I can turn that back around at you and say that the U.S. is only friends with France when we need them.
WWI? WWII? :rolleyes:

..they were executed because Robespierre was a paranoid homicidal nutcase who saw plots against the Republic everywhere and believed they were a threat to the Republic.
Dead is dead.

The fact remains that the French republic is Our Oldest Enemy.
 

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I doubt that France aided us based on a belief in our cause. More likely, they did it because they hated the British. (The enemy of my enemy is my friend)
Our Revolution led to their revolution. The money they spent helping us sped up their revolution a bit, and we were not in a great position to pay back the aid when they needed it the most. But the money was not likely to help anyway. The French peasantry was just as unhappy with their royalty and upper classes as we were with our overlords back in England.
Maybe even more so, as the French monarchy aristocracy were notorious about ignoring the peasants, letting them starve to death, putting them into prison for the smallest of crimes, etc. And the wonderful church was right in the thick of it, living large along with the wealthy while pretending to care about their parishioners.:(
 
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UtahBill said:
I doubt that France aided us based on a belief in our cause.More likely, they did it because they hated the British. (The enemy of my enemy is my friend)
The French bourgouisie and aristocrats aided us because they believed in the cause..they began aiding us 8 years before it became official policy and ignored direct orders of the King in some cases. If you read the memoirs and other writings of some of those men you'd know what I'm saying to be true.

UtahBill said:
Our Revolution led to their revolution. The money they spent helping us sped up their revolution a bit, and we were not in a great position to pay back the aid when they needed it the most. But the money was not likely to help anyway.
The money was never payed back and the contracts were voided by the Continental Congress after the revolution was over except for 1. Beaumarchais' family petitioned the Continental Congress to honor the contract but instead of paying the money back as the contract stipulated they gave the family a boatload of tobacco which was worth less than 1/3 of what the Continental Congress owed them.

UtahBill said:
The French peasantry was just as unhappy with their royalty and upper classes as we were with our overlords back in England.
The French peasantry only played a microscopic role in the revolution. It was the bourgouisie and some aristocrats that started, controlled, and played the major role.

UtahBill said:
Maybe even more so, as the French monarchy aristocracy were notorious about ignoring the peasants, letting them starve to death, putting them into prison for the smallest of crimes, etc. And the wonderful church was right in the thick of it, living large along with the wealthy while pretending to care about their parishioners.:(
It was not the monarchy or the aristocracy's fault for the most part. The population had more than doubled since the reign of Louis XV and France experianced the longest, harshest, and coldest winter in more than a century which destroyed many of the crops which is why it's known as the little ice age. Due to that and several other factors the price of grain skyrocketed and because the state had gone bankrupt paying for the American Revolution it could not afford to import enough to support the population and there was a huge food shortage. Only the very wealthy could afford a decent meal and the bourgouisie and a long list of aristocrats couldn't stand eating less than 5 loafs per day. Much of the aristocracy genuinley cared for the bourgouisie which is why some joined the side of the revolution.
In terms of imprisonment..yes many charges were stupid as were the charges raised against the monarchy, the aristocracy, and the church.
 
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UtahBill said:
Study the Revolution in depth as I have and get back to me ;)

"Resentment of royal absolutism."

Not so much. Louis XVI certainly was not an absolutist King..he was extremely weak, questioned why he was king and often displayed a lack of interest in being King, recognized the fact that being king through inheiritance is not a good thing, deffered to the aristocracy most of the time, and tried to ease the burden on the lower class on numerous occassions. He and Marie Antoinette were extremely popular amoung the bourgouisie and lower classes for the majority of their reign. Wasn't a problem prior to the shortage of grain and the majority of the bourgouisie favored such a system even during the revolution which is why there was an average execution rate of 800 per month at the hands of Robespierre.

"Resentment of seigneurialism by peasants, wage-earners, and, to a lesser extent, the bourgeoisie"

The peasants played such a small role in the revolution this can't really be defined as a cause. As I said, the bourgouisie made up the majority of the revolutionaries and were neutral on seigneurialism.

"The rise of enlightenment ideals."

Absolutley.

"An unmanageable national debt, both caused by and exacerbating the burden of a grossly inequitable system of taxation."

Yes but the issue wasn't the debt itself it was the lack of grain. The tax system was entirely unfair which is why Louis proposed raising taxes on the aristocracy at the Estates-General but was shouted down.

"Bad economical situation, partly because of France's involvement and aid in the American Revolution."

Absolutley.

"Food scarcity in the months immediately before the revolution."

Now we get down to it. This was the catalyst of the revolution.

"Resentment at noble privilege and dominance in public life by the ambitious professional classes."

Yes and no. The monarchy served as a form of entertainment and no one resented that entertainment.

"Influence of the American Revolution."

Absolutley.
 

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Napoleon's Nightingale said:
American Revolution :roll:
What are you talking about? You can't skirt the issue of WW1 & WW2 by going back the premise of the American Revolution. Diogenes may have been intellectually lazy with his one-liner, but that was that was the stupidest counterpoint ever.
 
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iamjack said:
What are you talking about? You can't skirt the issue of WW1 & WW2 by going back the premise of the American Revolution. Diogenes may have been intellectually lazy with his one-liner, but that was that was the stupidest counterpoint ever.
I was countering his idea that France is only friends with us when they need us by prooving that he has it backwards. We've never aided France to aid France..we have aided France only when it directly benefited us. I cited the American Revolution because the individual Frenchmen did not aid us because it was of personal benefit to them..they aided us because they genuinely believed in the cause. We didn't help the French in WW1 or WW2 to help the French..we ignored their cry for help and let them rot until we were directly affected by those wars.
 

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UtahBill said:
I doubt that France aided us based on a belief in our cause. More likely, they did it because they hated the British. (The enemy of my enemy is my friend)
Our Revolution led to their revolution. The money they spent helping us sped up their revolution a bit, and we were not in a great position to pay back the aid when they needed it the most. But the money was not likely to help anyway. The French peasantry was just as unhappy with their royalty and upper classes as we were with our overlords back in England.
Maybe even more so, as the French monarchy aristocracy were notorious about ignoring the peasants, letting them starve to death, putting them into prison for the smallest of crimes, etc. And the wonderful church was right in the thick of it, living large along with the wealthy while pretending to care about their parishioners.:(
Very true. The whole subject is explored in depth by Simon Schama in Citizens : A Chronicle of the French Revolution. It's downright eerie how much of the rhetoric and tactics were replayed in Russia a bit over a century later.
 

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iamjack said:
Diogenes may have been intellectually lazy with his one-liner, ...
Whaddaya mean, "intellectually lazy"?? We'd been over the same material so many times already that it didn't warrant a serious response... :mrgreen:
 

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Diogenes said:
Whaddaya mean, "intellectually lazy"?? We'd been over the same material so many times already that it didn't warrant a serious response... :mrgreen:
Well you hadn't really articulated the significance of ww 1 and 2. Historical Franco-American codependancy is equal in the sense that we would not exist without them and they would not exist without us, but there is an obvious asymmetry. While they offered us fiscal assistance during the revolution, there are some hundreds of thousands of American boys and men buried on French soil. And despite this, French opinion of the U.S. is one of vindiction due to thier own sense of inadicuacy and the extreme social reaction therefrom.
 
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iamjack said:
While they offered us fiscal assistance during the revolution, there are some hundreds of thousands of American boys and men buried on French soil.
Fiscal assistance, military assistance ie troops, the French Navy, more than 87 officers who joined the revolution 8 years before it was official policy, tacticians etc, sending us arms and munitions 8 years before it was official policy, influencing Spain to send medical supplies, a number of munitions, and attacking the British fleet, etc etc ad infinitum. Without the French there would not have been victory and what honor have we shown them for their sacrifice for our freedom? Very little. Most people don't even know the significance of the aid provided by the French and the true motives behind sending it ie genuine belief in our cause. Most people are taught nowadays that the American Revolution was a grandiose grandstand of Americans who defeated the British. They don't mention the fact that every major city from Maine to Georgia including the capital had been captured by the British prior to the aid provided by the individual French aristocrats and bourgouisie men. Most people are taught that the French only played a minescule role and only fought because they hated England. That is a lie. Louis XVI agreed to aid the revolution for that reason but the people who acctually aided the revolution provided their lives, money, and products because they believed in the cause as clearly displayed in many of their writings and memoirs. How many Frenchman died and sacrificed for our cause and have unmarked graves in a field somewhere? You probably don't even know.

iamjack said:
And despite this, French opinion of the U.S. is one of vindiction due to thier own sense of inadicuacy and the extreme social reaction therefrom.
It might have something to do with the fact that America constantly shafted the French after the American Revolution was over. It might have something to do with the fact that the U.S. ignored France's cries for help until going to war with Germany was no longer an option. The French payed a heavy price because of the U.S.'s refusal to help until it became beneficial to the U.S. The U.S. sat and watched France rot in the filth of Nazi occupation instead of helping until it became beneficial to the U.S. to help the French. America has a long history of betraying France..how do you expect them to react?
 
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Napoleon's Nightingale said:
ROFL. Can you name 1 American who aided or took part in the French Revolution? No. Can you name one instance in which the Continental Congress honored it's agreements and contracts with French aristocrats? No. Most of the French bourgeoisie and aristocratic contributers to the American Revolution contributed because they genuinely believed in the cause. I can turn that back around at you and say that the U.S. is only friends with France when we need them. After the French provided us with the means to win our war against the British and we won the Continental Congress stabbed France in the back.



Thats a lie. Most of the aristocrats and bourgeoisie who aided the American Revolution were not executed. Those that were were not executed for taking part in the American Revolution..they were executed because Robespierre was a paranoid homicidal nutcase who saw plots against the Republic everywhere and believed they were a threat to the Republic.
Nope they supported it to screw the British plain and simple it was in their national interests.
 
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