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To Deal With China, Trump Should Learn German

Rostocker

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Interesting article that explains why USA is unable to get China, Trump has no ally. Since he broke the German - American alliance, China easily can avoid americans anctions by getting the tec and trade from us.

Best example is the chip ban, China now bought machines from Germany, that allow them to produce their own chips. Chinas foreign minister was yesterday in Germany, saying that the China - German relations are the most important for China.

Germany is a manufacturing superpower that would be a decisive ally, along with the rest of the EU, in a trade war against China.

If Joe Biden is elected president, his top foreign policy challenge will be China — but not the China that he dealt with under Barack Obama. It will be a much more aggressive China, a China looking to supplant American technology dominance, smother democracy in Hong Kong and cybersteal your personal data. Pushing back on that China, without blowing up the global trading system, will require reversing one of Donald Trump’s biggest mistakes — his failure to build a partnership with Germany to counter Beijing.

Yes, you read that right. The Cold War with the Soviet Union was fought and won in Berlin. And the looming Cold War with China — over trade, technology and global influence — will be fought and won in Berlin.

As Berlin goes, so goes Germany, and as Germany goes, so goes the European Union, the world’s biggest single market. And whichever country — the United States or China — is able to leverage the European Union on its side in the competition for whose technology standards, trade rules and technology will prevail will set the rules for global digital commerce in the 21st century.

If we make this a story of America acting against China alone — with the goal of making America, and only America, great again — we lose. If we make this a story of the world versus China on what are the right and fair rules of 21st-century commerce — we can bend Beijing our way.

Trump had to impose billions of dollars in taxes on U.S. imports from China — and force U.S. farmers to live with China’s retaliation of curtailed American agriculture purchases — just to compel China to promise to buy more American goods. But he still did not secure a sustained opening of China’s economy for truly reciprocal commerce.


Which is why I thought it was a huge mistake for Trump to be simultaneously hammering China and bashing Germany over European Union auto tariffs and Berlin’s lagging military spending. Trump should have prioritized a partnership with Chancellor Angela Merkel of Germany — also known as “the Chancellor of Europe’’ — who is as concerned about China’s bullying as we are.

Germany has a small army that would be useless in a shooting war against Russia, but it is a manufacturing superpower that would be a decisive ally in a trade war against China.

“We share your grievances with China, but why has Trump never tried to address them with your European allies?’’ a veteran German diplomat asked me.

Pew Research reported in May that in 2019, Germans prioritized their country’s relationship with the United States over that with China, 50 percent to 24 percent. Today, 37 percent of Germans prioritize their country’s relationship with the United States and 36 percent prioritize relations with China.

So, do the math: On taking office, Trump tore up the Trans-Pacific Partnership agreement, which set the rules for free trade in the 21st century in line with U.S. interests and was supported by the 12 biggest Pacific economies — excluding China. And now he’s weakening ties with Germany.

Then, in the middle of all of this, Trump’s secretary of state, Mike Pompeo, gave a speech declaring that “securing our freedoms from the Chinese Communist Party is the mission of our time,” therefore it is also time “for a new grouping of like-minded nations, a new alliance of democracies’’ to deter China.

“If the free world doesn’t change,” Pompeo went on, “Communist China will surely change us.”

That speech left me speechless. It’s hard to have an alliance without allies.

If managing Communist China is, truly, “the mission of our time,” then wouldn’t you set aside nickel-and-dime complaints about German defense spending aimed at Russia — a third-rate power best known for selling vodka, caviar and oil and gas — to enlist the whole European Union on our side?


The thing China fears most is the one thing Trump refused to build — a united coalition that includes the Trans-Pacific Partnership, the United States and the European Union, built around Washington and Berlin.

The great grand strategy chess move of the 1970s was Richard Nixon and Henry Kissinger building an alliance between China and America to contain the Soviet Union. The great grand strategy chess move today is building an alliance between the United States and Germany to counterbalance China.

Opinion | To Deal With China, Trump Should Learn German - The New York Times
 

Mycroft

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I find it interesting that you left an entire paragraph out of your quote from that article.

Between these two paragraphs...

As Berlin goes, so goes Germany, and as Germany goes, so goes the European Union, the world’s biggest single market. And whichever country — the United States or China — is able to leverage the European Union on its side in the competition for whose technology standards, trade rules and technology will prevail will set the rules for global digital commerce in the 21st century.

If we make this a story of America acting against China alone — with the goal of making America, and only America, great again — we lose. If we make this a story of the world versus China on what are the right and fair rules of 21st-century commerce — we can bend Beijing our way.

...was this paragraph, which you declined to include in your post.

“The reason that the United States was on the winning side of the three great conflicts of the 20th century — World War I, World War II and the Cold War,’’ said Michael Mandelbaum, author of “The Rise and Fall of Peace on Earth,” “is that we were part of the strongest coalition. The World War I coalition we joined belatedly. The World War II coalition we joined less belatedly. The Cold War coalition to defeat the Soviet Union, we organized. This should have been the model for dealing with China.’’

Now, I'm not sure exactly who Mandelbaum was referring to in his "we" contention, but this article implies that the "we" is Germany. In that context, that quote from Mandelbaum is preposterous. I mean, seriously...the reason the US was on the winning side of WWI and WWII is because "we" (Germany) "were part of the strongest coalition"? And that "The Cold War coalition to defeat the Soviet Union, we organized." Really? Germany ("we") organized the coalition to defeat the Soviet Union???

Yes, Rostocker, that paragraph flies in the face of reality and I don't blame you for leaving it out of your post. But what it does is expose the totally unrealistic notion that, in regard to the US economic conflict with China, that Germany matters. The fact is, you DON'T matter. Trump has already shown that we don't NEED (nor want) "united coalition(s)" that ultimately don't have OUR best interests at heart...especially coalitions like the ones that writer mentions; TPP and US/EU.

Face it. The EU...and most importantly, Germany...must work with the US. Not the other way around. A China/Germany grouping will never take the place of, nor equal, the ending of a China/US grouping. Sorry, but you guys...no matter how much you think of yourselves as a "manufacturing powerhouse"...just aren't that important or useful to the US in terms of dealing with China. Yes, we'd love to engage in fair, balanced and reciprocal trade with the EU and Germany...just as we want with every other country we trade with...including China...but that's pretty much where our concerns about Germany end.

Also...face it...if Trump is reelected in November, he will be turning his economic warfare aiming reticule toward the EU, including Germany, in regard to that fair, balanced and reciprocal trade issue that I mentioned. I'm thinking THAT should be your primary concern right now. Not the US economic conflict with China.

(Unless, of course, you really DO want to take China's side against the US. If that's the case, well...I've mentioned to you before about making choices and suffering the consequences.)
 

Rostocker

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I find it interesting that you left an entire paragraph out of your quote from that article.

Between these two paragraphs...





...was this paragraph, which you declined to include in your post.



Now, I'm not sure exactly who Mandelbaum was referring to in his "we" contention, but this article implies that the "we" is Germany. In that context, that quote from Mandelbaum is preposterous. I mean, seriously...the reason the US was on the winning side of WWI and WWII is because "we" (Germany) "were part of the strongest coalition"? And that "The Cold War coalition to defeat the Soviet Union, we organized." Really? Germany ("we") organized the coalition to defeat the Soviet Union???

Yes, Rostocker, that paragraph flies in the face of reality and I don't blame you for leaving it out of your post. But what it does is expose the totally unrealistic notion that, in regard to the US economic conflict with China, that Germany matters. The fact is, you DON'T matter. Trump has already shown that we don't NEED (nor want) "united coalition(s)" that ultimately don't have OUR best interests at heart...especially coalitions like the ones that writer mentions; TPP and US/EU.

Face it. The EU...and most importantly, Germany...must work with the US. Not the other way around. A China/Germany grouping will never take the place of, nor equal, the ending of a China/US grouping. Sorry, but you guys...no matter how much you think of yourselves as a "manufacturing powerhouse"...just aren't that important or useful to the US in terms of dealing with China. Yes, we'd love to engage in fair, balanced and reciprocal trade with the EU and Germany...just as we want with every other country we trade with...including China...but that's pretty much where our concerns about Germany end.

Also...face it...if Trump is reelected in November, he will be turning his economic warfare aiming reticule toward the EU, including Germany, in regard to that fair, balanced and reciprocal trade issue that I mentioned. I'm thinking THAT should be your primary concern right now. Not the US economic conflict with China.

(Unless, of course, you really DO want to take China's side against the US. If that's the case, well...I've mentioned to you before about making choices and suffering the consequences.)

Mandelbaum is american. With "we" he means USA.


As for the rest of your bull****. There are three big economic blocks. China, USA and EU.

USA is losing against China when EU sides with China.

The chinese foreign minister was in Germany yesterday and wants closer connections between Germany / EU and China, for exactly that reason.

USA alone has not the economic impetus and power to gain anything.

Its quite easy, when there are two parties and one stands alone, that one loses.

If trump issues tariffs on European goods, we do same on american goods in same hight. China does same. So while China and EU trade freely, USA companies are locked out of both world markets.

We already see that on the diplomatic front, where the EU under Merkels leadership virtually castrated USA, blocks Iran sanctions, isolates USA in the UNO and denies USA to bring itself into WHO reforms.


We sided with Iran so i assume siding with China is the minor thing compared to that.


China is a millenia old culture and they always play in the long run. When you have three great powers, your best way to win, is to win one of them.

If USA were not led by an absolute moron, he would have allied with Merkel and the combined market power would have pushed China back within a short time.

But now USA stands alone, its decissions against China run empty, because China simply switch in most cases to EU. For example buys no Boeing and switchs to Airbus (Boeing is dead on chinese market).

The chip ban that trump issued. China bought machines from Germany and now can produce the chips themself, while offering taiwanese workers from chip producers there twice the income, and they bring the knowledge.

face it, The EU and most importantly Germany, is the only "ally" you have left in the world. We show since two years now that we must not work with USA, we opposse USA at evry corner.

So for your own future you should pray that Biden wins. Because you wont be able to stand against China with ****holes like Poland and the Domenican Republic at your side.
 

Grand Mal

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I find it interesting that you left an entire paragraph out of your quote from that article.

Between these two paragraphs...





...was this paragraph, which you declined to include in your post.



Now, I'm not sure exactly who Mandelbaum was referring to in his "we" contention, but this article implies that the "we" is Germany. In that context, that quote from Mandelbaum is preposterous. I mean, seriously...the reason the US was on the winning side of WWI and WWII is because "we" (Germany) "were part of the strongest coalition"? And that "The Cold War coalition to defeat the Soviet Union, we organized." Really? Germany ("we") organized the coalition to defeat the Soviet Union???

Yes, Rostocker, that paragraph flies in the face of reality and I don't blame you for leaving it out of your post. But what it does is expose the totally unrealistic notion that, in regard to the US economic conflict with China, that Germany matters. The fact is, you DON'T matter. Trump has already shown that we don't NEED (nor want) "united coalition(s)" that ultimately don't have OUR best interests at heart...especially coalitions like the ones that writer mentions; TPP and US/EU.

Face it. The EU...and most importantly, Germany...must work with the US. Not the other way around. A China/Germany grouping will never take the place of, nor equal, the ending of a China/US grouping. Sorry, but you guys...no matter how much you think of yourselves as a "manufacturing powerhouse"...just aren't that important or useful to the US in terms of dealing with China. Yes, we'd love to engage in fair, balanced and reciprocal trade with the EU and Germany...just as we want with every other country we trade with...including China...but that's pretty much where our concerns about Germany end.

Also...face it...if Trump is reelected in November, he will be turning his economic warfare aiming reticule toward the EU, including Germany, in regard to that fair, balanced and reciprocal trade issue that I mentioned. I'm thinking THAT should be your primary concern right now. Not the US economic conflict with China.

(Unless, of course, you really DO want to take China's side against the US. If that's the case, well...I've mentioned to you before about making choices and suffering the consequences.)

Obviously the "we" is the USA. That's plain as the nose on your face.
 

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Interesting article that explains why USA is unable to get China, Trump has no ally. Since he broke the German - American alliance, China easily can avoid americans anctions by getting the tec and trade from us.

Best example is the chip ban, China now bought machines from Germany, that allow them to produce their own chips. Chinas foreign minister was yesterday in Germany, saying that the China - German relations are the most important for China.

Germany is a manufacturing superpower that would be a decisive ally, along with the rest of the EU, in a trade war against China.

If Joe Biden is elected president, his top foreign policy challenge will be China — but not the China that he dealt with under Barack Obama. It will be a much more aggressive China, a China looking to supplant American technology dominance, smother democracy in Hong Kong and cybersteal your personal data. Pushing back on that China, without blowing up the global trading system, will require reversing one of Donald Trump’s biggest mistakes — his failure to build a partnership with Germany to counter Beijing.

Yes, you read that right. The Cold War with the Soviet Union was fought and won in Berlin. And the looming Cold War with China — over trade, technology and global influence — will be fought and won in Berlin.

As Berlin goes, so goes Germany, and as Germany goes, so goes the European Union, the world’s biggest single market. And whichever country — the United States or China — is able to leverage the European Union on its side in the competition for whose technology standards, trade rules and technology will prevail will set the rules for global digital commerce in the 21st century.

If we make this a story of America acting against China alone — with the goal of making America, and only America, great again — we lose. If we make this a story of the world versus China on what are the right and fair rules of 21st-century commerce — we can bend Beijing our way.

Trump had to impose billions of dollars in taxes on U.S. imports from China — and force U.S. farmers to live with China’s retaliation of curtailed American agriculture purchases — just to compel China to promise to buy more American goods. But he still did not secure a sustained opening of China’s economy for truly reciprocal commerce.


Which is why I thought it was a huge mistake for Trump to be simultaneously hammering China and bashing Germany over European Union auto tariffs and Berlin’s lagging military spending. Trump should have prioritized a partnership with Chancellor Angela Merkel of Germany — also known as “the Chancellor of Europe’’ — who is as concerned about China’s bullying as we are.

Germany has a small army that would be useless in a shooting war against Russia, but it is a manufacturing superpower that would be a decisive ally in a trade war against China.

“We share your grievances with China, but why has Trump never tried to address them with your European allies?’’ a veteran German diplomat asked me.

Pew Research reported in May that in 2019, Germans prioritized their country’s relationship with the United States over that with China, 50 percent to 24 percent. Today, 37 percent of Germans prioritize their country’s relationship with the United States and 36 percent prioritize relations with China.

So, do the math: On taking office, Trump tore up the Trans-Pacific Partnership agreement, which set the rules for free trade in the 21st century in line with U.S. interests and was supported by the 12 biggest Pacific economies — excluding China. And now he’s weakening ties with Germany.

The thing China fears most is the one thing Trump refused to build — a united coalition that includes the Trans-Pacific Partnership, the United States and the European Union, built around Washington and Berlin.

The great grand strategy chess move of the 1970s was Richard Nixon and Henry Kissinger building an alliance between China and America to contain the Soviet Union. The great grand strategy chess move today is building an alliance between the United States and Germany to counterbalance China.

Opinion | To Deal With China, Trump Should Learn German - The New York Times

So in other words, Germany will happily work with the regime currently actively committing genocide in Xinjiang.....and we should care what you lot think about “human rights”?

The hypocrisy is almost tangible.
 

Rostocker

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So in other words, Germany will happily work with the regime currently actively committing genocide in Xinjiang.....and we should care what you lot think about “human rights”?

The hypocrisy is almost tangible.

You cant chose who you work with.

China commits genocide in Xinjiang, USA committed genocide in Iraq.

We dont work happily with China, but right now, its the better option for us. Or do you expect us to ally with a country that acts hostile towards us?

I have a hint for you, you dont make allies by attacking them, insulting them.
 

Tangmo

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If Biden is elected he'll return the USA to the Trans Pacific Partnership that USA created as an important rules based order to limit China's economic leverage and its obsession to dominate the world in technology. Beijing celebrated when Trump killed US participation and leadership of TPP that Japan has taken over indefinitely or until the USA returns to it.

TPP is designed to do what Trumps trade war did but without the war part of it, ie, TPP wouldn't wreck farms in the USA by suddenly killing their exports to China which is what Trump has done. Trump is winning his trade war against China as is predictable to the Chinese too yet it's for certain a trade war hurts both sides. History shows that when a debtor nation such as the USA starts a trade war against a creditor nation such as the CCP-PRC the debtor nation will prevail.

Germany is a creditor nation and as manufacturing continues to move out of China due to the trade war Germany's exports of capital equipment to China will continue to be problematical. CCP Boyz in Beijing look to Germany for capital equipment and capital is fleeing China at $1 Trillion a year. The Boyz have initiated some capital controls which is never a good development because once you put your toe in that water you're going to get shoved in and find yourself underwater.
 

OlNate

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So in other words, Germany will happily work with the regime currently actively committing genocide in Xinjiang.....and we should care what you lot think about “human rights”?

The hypocrisy is almost tangible.

:lamo Americans scolding about human rights violations....
 

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:lamo Americans scolding about human rights violations....

:lamo

Canadians trying to accuse anyone else of hypocrisy on the subject....is amusing, to say the least.
 

Tigerace117

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You cant chose who you work with.

China commits genocide in Xinjiang, USA committed genocide in Iraq.

We dont work happily with China, but right now, its the better option for us. Or do you expect us to ally with a country that acts hostile towards us?

I have a hint for you, you dont make allies by attacking them, insulting them.

Lol no, the US did not “commit genocide in Iraq”. This has already throughly been addressed in a previous thread. As a German, one would think you’d actually know what genocide was instead of desperately invoking it to justify knee-jerk anti Americanism.

As I said before, Germany happily working with China, which is currently committing genocide, just shows the depth of your hypocrisy.

You don’t make allies by showing yourself to be utterly mercenary. Why should the US bother to ally with a country which will happily ally itself with tyrants the second it thinks it will “get a better deal”?

And you absolutely can choose who you work with, so your comment is rather nonsensical.
 

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:lamo

Canadians trying to accuse anyone else of hypocrisy on the subject....is amusing, to say the least.

Look buddy, you happily work together with Saudi Arabia, which leads a genocidal war in Yemen, cuts its own Journalists in their own embassy apart.

Your country is bound by the same constraints that we are bound it. Its even a german word that is used for that: Realpolitik.

Right now its imporrible for us to ally with USA. You know at the end of the day you still want to look in the mirror.

I think right now things are quite static. We wait how your election ends and until then do nothing that would support USA. If Biden wins, we will happily try our best to reestablish our former alliance.
 

Tigerace117

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Look buddy, you happily work together with Saudi Arabia, which leads a genocidal war in Yemen, cuts its own Journalists in their own embassy apart.

Your country is bound by the same constraints that we are bound it. Its even a german word that is used for that: Realpolitik.

Right now its imporrible for us to ally with USA. You know at the end of the day you still want to look in the mirror.

I think right now things are quite static. We wait how your election ends and until then do nothing that would support USA. If Biden wins, we will happily try our best to reestablish our former alliance.

Oh look, even more whataboutism(which is particular hypocritical given the amount of German waffling on supplying arms to Saudi Arabia themselves). None of which changes any of the facts about China’s systematic genocide going on in Xinjiang.

And China hacks dissidents apart for their organs as well as basically enslaving people to work in sweatshops. No amount of whataboutism can change that, and blathering about how much you use “realpolitik” is meaningless. Again, an untrustworthy ally is not one worth keeping. If Germany is so obsessed with “realpolitik” then there is no reason for the US to bother supporting you any longer.

Wailing about how it’s “impossible” to ally with the US while talking about palling around with China and Russia is pretty pathetic.

Until the next time something mildly inconveniences you, at which point you’ll start sniveling about “realpolitik” and sniffing around every tyrant who offers anything. Quite frankly, you lot are rapidly approaching the point where I’d say good riddance.
 

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Lol no, the US did not “commit genocide in Iraq”. This has already throughly been addressed in a previous thread. As a German, one would think you’d actually know what genocide was instead of desperately invoking it to justify knee-jerk anti Americanism.

As I said before, Germany happily working with China, which is currently committing genocide, just shows the depth of your hypocrisy.

You don’t make allies by showing yourself to be utterly mercenary. Why should the US bother to ally with a country which will happily ally itself with tyrants the second it thinks it will “get a better deal”?

And you absolutely can choose who you work with, so your comment is rather nonsensical.

We cant work with Trumps america. Its impossible. We tried it for two years and it did not work. We learned, that we get better results to go into fundamental oppossition to Trump.

You need to change a few things. As long USA tries to use sanctions, blackmail and insults against former allies, you stand alone.

And thats not just Germany. France and UK have forsaken you as well. Remember that it was not just Germany that sided with Iran in the UN security council. France and UK did same.


Our ambassador in Washington said, from day one US officials adressed german officials like giving orders. Something that was not well recieved. In the end it led to the fact, that you achieved nothing regarding that.

You had to call your ambassador home from Berlin, since he was burned and isolated.

I think the reesteblishment of the former alliance is impossible with trump, even if he would change his tone by 180°.

Keep in mind that we are a democracy. It would be very hard for our chancellor to explain to the people whiy she works together with a man who insults our country and want to hurt us.

As the article says: "It’s hard to have an alliance without allies."
 

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Look buddy, you happily work together with Saudi Arabia, which leads a genocidal war in Yemen, cuts its own Journalists in their own embassy apart.

Your country is bound by the same constraints that we are bound it. Its even a german word that is used for that: Realpolitik.

Right now its imporrible for us to ally with USA. You know at the end of the day you still want to look in the mirror.

I think right now things are quite static. We wait how your election ends and until then do nothing that would support USA. If Biden wins, we will happily try our best to reestablish our former alliance.

“Reestablishing our former alliance”, which incidentally is still alive and well, is only your hope to to lead us around by the nose as you did with Obama, and Barry’s little buddy Ol’ Joe is your only hope of pulling that off. Let me go on record as saying it’s not gonna happen.
I will also say that if you continue to try to establish Russian hegemony over Germany, you will accomplish something that Stalin and all their subsequent leaders up to Putin have failed to do.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

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We cant work with Trumps america. Its impossible. We tried it for two years and it did not work. We learned, that we get better results to go into fundamental oppossition to Trump.

You need to change a few things. As long USA tries to use sanctions, blackmail and insults against former allies, you stand alone.

And thats not just Germany. France and UK have forsaken you as well. Remember that it was not just Germany that sided with Iran in the UN security council. France and UK did same.


Our ambassador in Washington said, from day one US officials adressed german officials like giving orders. Something that was not well recieved. In the end it led to the fact, that you achieved nothing regarding that.

You had to call your ambassador home from Berlin, since he was burned and isolated.

I think the reesteblishment of the former alliance is impossible with trump, even if he would change his tone by 180°.

Keep in mind that we are a democracy. It would be very hard for our chancellor to explain to the people whiy she works together with a man who insults our country and want to hurt us.

As the article says: "It’s hard to have an alliance without allies."

Sniveling about how you “can’t work with America” but supporting tyrants in Russia and especially China is, again, pathetic.

Europeans showing their hypocrisy and defending vile dictatorships like Iran is hardly a new affair. They were doing it long before there even was a United States. But by all means, keep babbling about “blackmail” and palling around with Beijing. Let us know how that goes for you :lol:

Funnily enough, there’s more than a few European countries who think that about Germany. Interesting how that works :lol:

And yet you have no problem working with a tyrant who murders dissidents across Europe and a dictatorship actively committing genocide.....which shows your wailing to be pretty laughable. If the German public tolerates support for Russia and China, arguing that “they can’t tolerate the US” is utterly laughable.

It’s not worth having an alliance with allies which will turn on you the second they think they smell an advantage.
 

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Oh look, even more whataboutism(which is particular hypocritical given the amount of German waffling on supplying arms to Saudi Arabia themselves). None of which changes any of the facts about China’s systematic genocide going on in Xinjiang.

And China hacks dissidents apart for their organs as well as basically enslaving people to work in sweatshops. No amount of whataboutism can change that, and blathering about how much you use “realpolitik” is meaningless. Again, an untrustworthy ally is not one worth keeping. If Germany is so obsessed with “realpolitik” then there is no reason for the US to bother supporting you any longer.

Wailing about how it’s “impossible” to ally with the US while talking about palling around with China and Russia is pretty pathetic.

Until the next time something mildly inconveniences you, at which point you’ll start sniveling about “realpolitik” and sniffing around every tyrant who offers anything. Quite frankly, you lot are rapidly approaching the point where I’d say good riddance.

Tell me, when did China threaten a german small town with total destruction because a pipeline project? 3 of your senators did just that.

When has China called Germany delinquent? Trump did that. When was China treatening Germany with economic war? Trump did that.

When was China trying to enforce its will on Germany? Trump did that, unsucessful but he tried.

When was China trying to give orders to german corporations? Your former ambassador did that via Twitter.

As i said, at the moment the situation is static and Germany will see how things develop. Cooperation with Trump is impossible.

You must learn that allies are not vasalls.

The problem with "untrustworthy ally are not worth keeping" is, that you have no allies left.

As i said, Germany tried to work with Trump. It did not work. Im sure you agree that there must always be the red line where you step out with dignity.

But i am interested in your opinion, how would you suggest such an alliance can be reestablished

Do you have forces within your government who are able to curb Trumps worst and most insane outbreaks? We have the feeling that with people like Matthis gone, all reason has left the White House.
 

Rostocker

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“Reestablishing our former alliance”, which incidentally is still alive and well, is only your hope to to lead us around by the nose as you did with Obama, and Barry’s little buddy Ol’ Joe is your only hope of pulling that off. Let me go on record as saying it’s not gonna happen.
I will also say that if you continue to try to establish Russian hegemony over Germany, you will accomplish something that Stalin and all their subsequent leaders up to Putin have failed to do.


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Russia is a nigeria with snow and no threat for anyone. There will never be russian hegemony over Germany.
 

Rostocker

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Sniveling about how you “can’t work with America” but supporting tyrants in Russia and especially China is, again, pathetic.

Europeans showing their hypocrisy and defending vile dictatorships like Iran is hardly a new affair. They were doing it long before there even was a United States. But by all means, keep babbling about “blackmail” and palling around with Beijing. Let us know how that goes for you :lol:

Funnily enough, there’s more than a few European countries who think that about Germany. Interesting how that works :lol:

And yet you have no problem working with a tyrant who murders dissidents across Europe and a dictatorship actively committing genocide.....which shows your wailing to be pretty laughable. If the German public tolerates support for Russia and China, arguing that “they can’t tolerate the US” is utterly laughable.

It’s not worth having an alliance with allies which will turn on you the second they think they smell an advantage.

Its not about an advantage. We dont allow anyone to treat us like a vasall. We react very allergic to that kind of behavior.

You have to admit, that would be an odd alliance, where one gets treated like a dog, dont you think?
 

Tigerace117

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Tell me, when did China threaten a german small town with total destruction because a pipeline project? 3 of your senators did just that.

When has China called Germany delinquent? Trump did that. When was China treatening Germany with economic war? Trump did that.

When was China trying to enforce its will on Germany? Trump did that, unsucessful but he tried.

When was China trying to give orders to german corporations? Your former ambassador did that via Twitter.

As i said, at the moment the situation is static and Germany will see how things develop. Cooperation with Trump is impossible.

You must learn that allies are not vasalls.

The problem with "untrustworthy ally are not worth keeping" is, that you have no allies left.

As i said, Germany tried to work with Trump. It did not work. Im sure you agree that there must always be the red line where you step out with dignity.

But i am interested in your opinion, how would you suggest such an alliance can be reestablished

Do you have forces within your government who are able to curb Trumps worst and most insane outbreaks? We have the feeling that with people like Matthis gone, all reason has left the White House.

Lol yeah, I definitely remember the B1s being in the air to obliterate that small town over its role in Germany’s efforts collaborate with Russia’s tyrant :roll:

Your hysterics are amusing, but, as usual, meaningless.

Germany routinely tries to “enforce its will” on other countries. Someone in Greece could give you chapter and verse. It’s all part of that “realpolitik” you admire so much.

German corporations which try and deal with tyrants run the risks of any other company which tries to support such regimes. Deal with it.

Again, given Germany’s actions towards smaller nations in Europe, your posturing is laughably hypocritical at best. Allies also don’t go around crying because they are called out on supporting enemy nations which are actively murdering vast numbers of people.

Germany attempting to aid Russia and China is pretty mutually exclusive with being allied with the US given the current Russian and Chinese regimes. That’s just the facts.
 

Tigerace117

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Its not about an advantage. We dont allow anyone to treat us like a vasall. We react very allergic to that kind of behavior.

You have to admit, that would be an odd alliance, where one gets treated like a dog, dont you think?

And yet you treat countries like Portugal and Greece like vassals....routinely. So your posturing is meaningless.

It’s an odd “alliance” when one country throws a tantrum and accuses the other of “treating it like vassal” because they are called out on supporting brutal dictators.
 

Dayton3

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Yet another thread where the kid from Germany (supposedly) tries hard to convince people that Germany actually matters when in reality it is a dying country at the center of a dying continent too cowardly to even defend themselves.
 

Rostocker

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Lol yeah, I definitely remember the B1s being in the air to obliterate that small town over its role in Germany’s efforts collaborate with Russia’s tyrant :roll:

Your hysterics are amusing, but, as usual, meaningless.

Germany routinely tries to “enforce its will” on other countries. Someone in Greece could give you chapter and verse. It’s all part of that “realpolitik” you admire so much.

German corporations which try and deal with tyrants run the risks of any other company which tries to support such regimes. Deal with it.

Again, given Germany’s actions towards smaller nations in Europe, your posturing is laughably hypocritical at best. Allies also don’t go around crying because they are called out on supporting enemy nations which are actively murdering vast numbers of people.

Germany attempting to aid Russia and China is pretty mutually exclusive with being allied with the US given the current Russian and Chinese regimes. That’s just the facts.

Actually not. We dont whine. We observed and adjusted our politics to the new realities, an increasingly hostile USA.

You dont see the chancellor cry. She coldly ignores Trump and adjusted her politics to counter Trump wherever possible.

This might change when Trump is gone.
 

Helix

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He'll need to learn English first.
 

Rostocker

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Yet another thread where the kid from Germany (supposedly) tries hard to convince people that Germany actually matters when in reality it is a dying country at the center of a dying continent too cowardly to even defend themselves.

With all due respect, but the dieing country is you.

While we have public peace and recover greatly from the Corona impact...you have civil war on your streets, get ripped apart internal and collapse external.
 

Rostocker

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And yet you treat countries like Portugal and Greece like vassals....routinely. So your posturing is meaningless.

It’s an odd “alliance” when one country throws a tantrum and accuses the other of “treating it like vassal” because they are called out on supporting brutal dictators.

We dont treat Portugal or Greece like vasalls. They want loans, we bound those loans on certain demands. Its same a bank does. Nobody forced Greece to take the german money. They could have stand up and walk away.

We gave an offer.
 
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