• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every persons position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!
  • Welcome to our archives. No new posts are allowed here.

This Liberal has got it right....

Navy Pride

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 11, 2005
Messages
39,883
Reaction score
3,070
Location
Pacific NW
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
This Liberal has got it right.......You can't support the troops and not support their mission..... I have been saying this for months now a Liberal at the LA Times is saying it........Read it and weep....

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oe-stein24jan24,0,3682678.column?coll=la-util-op-ed

January 24, 2006 latimes.com : Opinion Print E-mail story Most E-mailed

Joel Stein:
Warriors and wusses
I DON'T SUPPORT our troops. This is a particularly difficult opinion to have, especially if you are the kind of person who likes to put bumper stickers on his car. Supporting the troops is a position that even Calvin is unwilling to urinate on.

I'm sure I'd like the troops. They seem gutsy, young and up for anything. If you're wandering into a recruiter's office and signing up for eight years of unknown danger, I want to hang with you in Vegas.

And I've got no problem with other people — the ones who were for the Iraq war — supporting the troops. If you think invading Iraq was a good idea, then by all means, support away. Load up on those patriotic magnets and bracelets and other trinkets the Chinese are making money off of.

But I'm not for the war. And being against the war and saying you support the troops is one of the wussiest positions the pacifists have ever taken — and they're wussy by definition. It's as if the one lesson they took away from Vietnam wasn't to avoid foreign conflicts with no pressing national interest but to remember to throw a parade afterward.

Blindly lending support to our soldiers, I fear, will keep them overseas longer by giving soft acquiescence to the hawks who sent them there — and who might one day want to send them somewhere else. Trust me, a guy who thought 50.7% was a mandate isn't going to pick up on the subtleties of a parade for just service in an unjust war. He's going to be looking for funnel cake.

Besides, those little yellow ribbons aren't really for the troops. They need body armor, shorter stays and a USO show by the cast of "Laguna Beach."

The real purpose of those ribbons is to ease some of the guilt we feel for voting to send them to war and then making absolutely no sacrifices other than enduring two Wolf Blitzer shows a day. Though there should be a ribbon for that.

I understand the guilt. We know we're sending recruits to do our dirty work, and we want to seem grateful.

After we've decided that we made a mistake, we don't want to blame the soldiers who were ordered to fight. Or even our representatives, who were deceived by false intelligence. And certainly not ourselves, who failed to object to a war we barely understood.

But blaming the president is a little too easy. The truth is that people who pull triggers are ultimately responsible, whether they're following orders or not. An army of people making individual moral choices may be inefficient, but an army of people ignoring their morality is horrifying. An army of people ignoring their morality, by the way, is also Jack Abramoff's pet name for the House of Representatives.

I do sympathize with people who joined up to protect our country, especially after 9/11, and were tricked into fighting in Iraq. I get mad when I'm tricked into clicking on a pop-up ad, so I can only imagine how they feel.

But when you volunteer for the U.S. military, you pretty much know you're not going to be fending off invasions from Mexico and Canada. So you're willingly signing up to be a fighting tool of American imperialism, for better or worse. Sometimes you get lucky and get to fight ethnic genocide in Kosovo, but other times it's Vietnam.

And sometimes, for reasons I don't understand, you get to just hang out in Germany.

I know this is all easy to say for a guy who grew up with money, did well in school and hasn't so much as served on jury duty for his country. But it's really not that easy to say because anyone remotely affiliated with the military could easily beat me up, and I'm listed in the phone book.

I'm not advocating that we spit on returning veterans like they did after the Vietnam War, but we shouldn't be celebrating people for doing something we don't think was a good idea. All I'm asking is that we give our returning soldiers what they need: hospitals, pensions, mental health and a safe, immediate return. But, please, no parades.

Seriously, the traffic is insufferable.
 

Stace

Boobie Jubilee
DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 9, 2005
Messages
7,255
Reaction score
364
Location
Clarksville, TN
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Moderate
It's all a matter of opinion, NP. I've told you time and again, I support the troops but I do not support the reasons why we are in Iraq. You know that I and my husband are both prior military and that my husband served in Iraq. You're basically trying to say, therefore, that I did not support myself nor my husband, and that is absolute BS and you know it.
 

Navy Pride

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 11, 2005
Messages
39,883
Reaction score
3,070
Location
Pacific NW
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
Stace said:
It's all a matter of opinion, NP. I've told you time and again, I support the troops but I do not support the reasons why we are in Iraq. You know that I and my husband are both prior military and that my husband served in Iraq. You're basically trying to say, therefore, that I did not support myself nor my husband, and that is absolute BS and you know it.
Well that is not what that writer in the LA Times says...You can't support the troops if you don't want them to be successfyl in the mission they are trying to accomplish.....You can't have it both ways......
 
Joined
Aug 17, 2005
Messages
20,915
Reaction score
546
Location
We can't stop here this is bat country!
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
Navy Pride said:
This Liberal has got it right.......You can't support the troops and not support their mission..... I have been saying this for months now a Liberal at the LA Times is saying it........Read it and weep....

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oe-stein24jan24,0,3682678.column?coll=la-util-op-ed

January 24, 2006 latimes.com : Opinion Print E-mail story Most E-mailed

Joel Stein:
Warriors and wusses
I DON'T SUPPORT our troops. This is a particularly difficult opinion to have, especially if you are the kind of person who likes to put bumper stickers on his car. Supporting the troops is a position that even Calvin is unwilling to urinate on.

I'm sure I'd like the troops. They seem gutsy, young and up for anything. If you're wandering into a recruiter's office and signing up for eight years of unknown danger, I want to hang with you in Vegas.

And I've got no problem with other people — the ones who were for the Iraq war — supporting the troops. If you think invading Iraq was a good idea, then by all means, support away. Load up on those patriotic magnets and bracelets and other trinkets the Chinese are making money off of.

But I'm not for the war. And being against the war and saying you support the troops is one of the wussiest positions the pacifists have ever taken — and they're wussy by definition. It's as if the one lesson they took away from Vietnam wasn't to avoid foreign conflicts with no pressing national interest but to remember to throw a parade afterward.

Blindly lending support to our soldiers, I fear, will keep them overseas longer by giving soft acquiescence to the hawks who sent them there — and who might one day want to send them somewhere else. Trust me, a guy who thought 50.7% was a mandate isn't going to pick up on the subtleties of a parade for just service in an unjust war. He's going to be looking for funnel cake.

Besides, those little yellow ribbons aren't really for the troops. They need body armor, shorter stays and a USO show by the cast of "Laguna Beach."

The real purpose of those ribbons is to ease some of the guilt we feel for voting to send them to war and then making absolutely no sacrifices other than enduring two Wolf Blitzer shows a day. Though there should be a ribbon for that.

I understand the guilt. We know we're sending recruits to do our dirty work, and we want to seem grateful.

After we've decided that we made a mistake, we don't want to blame the soldiers who were ordered to fight. Or even our representatives, who were deceived by false intelligence. And certainly not ourselves, who failed to object to a war we barely understood.

But blaming the president is a little too easy. The truth is that people who pull triggers are ultimately responsible, whether they're following orders or not. An army of people making individual moral choices may be inefficient, but an army of people ignoring their morality is horrifying. An army of people ignoring their morality, by the way, is also Jack Abramoff's pet name for the House of Representatives.

I do sympathize with people who joined up to protect our country, especially after 9/11, and were tricked into fighting in Iraq. I get mad when I'm tricked into clicking on a pop-up ad, so I can only imagine how they feel.

But when you volunteer for the U.S. military, you pretty much know you're not going to be fending off invasions from Mexico and Canada. So you're willingly signing up to be a fighting tool of American imperialism, for better or worse. Sometimes you get lucky and get to fight ethnic genocide in Kosovo, but other times it's Vietnam.

And sometimes, for reasons I don't understand, you get to just hang out in Germany.

I know this is all easy to say for a guy who grew up with money, did well in school and hasn't so much as served on jury duty for his country. But it's really not that easy to say because anyone remotely affiliated with the military could easily beat me up, and I'm listed in the phone book.

I'm not advocating that we spit on returning veterans like they did after the Vietnam War, but we shouldn't be celebrating people for doing something we don't think was a good idea. All I'm asking is that we give our returning soldiers what they need: hospitals, pensions, mental health and a safe, immediate return. But, please, no parades.

Seriously, the traffic is insufferable.
I'd really like to kick the ever loving sh!t out of the guy who wrote this.
 

Stace

Boobie Jubilee
DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 9, 2005
Messages
7,255
Reaction score
364
Location
Clarksville, TN
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Moderate
Navy Pride said:
Well that is not what that writer in the LA Times says...You can't support the troops if you don't want them to be successfyl in the mission they are trying to accomplish.....You can't have it both ways......
Really? Just because one guy said so in an op ed piece? So you're saying that I DIDN'T SUPPORT MYSELF OR MY HUSBAND? That's certainly news to me. News to my husband, as well. I told him about this post and he said "Yeah, you really didn't support me, you know, you stayed married to me, didn't cheat on me, sent me tons of letters and care packages....yeah, you really didn't support me".......
 

Stace

Boobie Jubilee
DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 9, 2005
Messages
7,255
Reaction score
364
Location
Clarksville, TN
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Moderate
Trajan Octavian Titus said:
I'd really like to kick the ever loving sh!t out of the guy who wrote this.
So would I, ToT.....I think that's the first thing we've agreed upon in quite some time.

I'm ready when you are. :mrgreen:
 

Navy Pride

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 11, 2005
Messages
39,883
Reaction score
3,070
Location
Pacific NW
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
Stace said:
Really? Just because one guy said so in an op ed piece? So you're saying that I DIDN'T SUPPORT MYSELF OR MY HUSBAND? That's certainly news to me. News to my husband, as well. I told him about this post and he said "Yeah, you really didn't support me, you know, you stayed married to me, didn't cheat on me, sent me tons of letters and care packages....yeah, you really didn't support me".......
Do you support the job the troops are doing in Iraq? do you want them to be succesful in the mission the CIC has laid down for them.............

If your answer is yes , then you support the troops...............If the answer is no then I am sorry you can't have it both ways......
 

Stace

Boobie Jubilee
DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 9, 2005
Messages
7,255
Reaction score
364
Location
Clarksville, TN
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Moderate
Navy Pride said:
Do you support the job the troops are doing in Iraq? do you want them to be succesful in the mission the CIC has laid down for them.............

If your answer is yes , then you support the troops...............If the answer is no then I am sorry you can't have it both ways......

I want them to be successful in their mission, but I do not support the "reasons" as to why they were sent there in the first place.

And if you think that means that I don't support the troops, then you're full of BS, because there is NO way that I did/do not support myself, my husband, the rest of my family members, or my friends that served/are serving.
 

Navy Pride

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 11, 2005
Messages
39,883
Reaction score
3,070
Location
Pacific NW
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
Stace said:
So would I, ToT.....I think that's the first thing we've agreed upon in quite some time.

I'm ready when you are. :mrgreen:
Why am I not surprised you don't agree with him?;)
 

Stace

Boobie Jubilee
DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 9, 2005
Messages
7,255
Reaction score
364
Location
Clarksville, TN
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Moderate
Navy Pride said:
Why am I not surprised you don't agree with him?;)
I honestly couldn't tell you, because believe it or not NP, there have been a number of occasions where I have agreed with a conservative on some point or another.
 

Navy Pride

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 11, 2005
Messages
39,883
Reaction score
3,070
Location
Pacific NW
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
Stace said:
I honestly couldn't tell you, because believe it or not NP, there have been a number of occasions where I have agreed with a conservative on some point or another.
If you say so stace.........
 

Stace

Boobie Jubilee
DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 9, 2005
Messages
7,255
Reaction score
364
Location
Clarksville, TN
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Moderate
Navy Pride said:
If you say so stace.........
Well, yeah, I do.....just because I don't agree with you on....well, anything.....doesn't mean I don't ever agree with conservatives. And just because you might not see doesn't make it so, either.
 

aps

Passionate
DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 25, 2005
Messages
15,675
Reaction score
2,979
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Liberal
Navy Pride said:
Well that is not what that writer in the LA Times says...You can't support the troops if you don't want them to be successfyl in the mission they are trying to accomplish.....You can't have it both ways......
And that is his opinion. I have two friends who have served and are currently serving in Iraq. One of them says you can support the troops without supporting the war. The other one says you cannot.

Frankly, I don't give a rat's butt if any soldier thinks I don't support them. That's their problem. And, to me, no one is capable of telling anyone else how they feel. That's just plain ridiculous.
 
Joined
Aug 17, 2005
Messages
20,915
Reaction score
546
Location
We can't stop here this is bat country!
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
aps said:
And that is his opinion. I have two friends who have served and are currently serving in Iraq. One of them says you can support the troops without supporting the war. The other one says you cannot.

Frankly, I don't give a rat's butt if any soldier thinks I don't support them. That's their problem. And, to me, no one is capable of telling anyone else how they feel. That's just plain ridiculous.
an analogy if you will:

"animal testing is evil and must be stopped."

Now does that not imply that the ones doing the tests on the animals are also evil? After all no one forced them into that position it was voluntary.

"The war in Iraq is evil and must be stopped."

Now does that not imply that those fighting the war are also evil? After all no one forced them into that postition it was voluntary.

You can not say that ones profession is immoral without implying that they themselves are immoral.
 

cnredd

Major General Big Lug
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 5, 2005
Messages
8,682
Reaction score
262
Location
Philadelphia,PA
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Conservative
aps said:
Frankly, I don't give a rat's butt if any soldier thinks I don't support them. That's their problem. And, to me, no one is capable of telling anyone else how they feel. That's just plain ridiculous.
Kanye West said:
George Bush doesn't like black people
Like this?...:2wave:
 

aps

Passionate
DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 25, 2005
Messages
15,675
Reaction score
2,979
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Liberal
cnredd said:
Like this?...:2wave:
Yes, exactly! That statement from that guy was just plain ridiculous. We all know I cannot stand Bush, but I don't believe for one minute he is a racist.
 

aps

Passionate
DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 25, 2005
Messages
15,675
Reaction score
2,979
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Liberal
Trajan Octavian Titus said:
an analogy if you will:

"animal testing is evil and must be stopped."

Now does that not imply that the ones doing the tests on the animals are also evil? After all no one forced them into that position it was voluntary.
Personally, I could not respect anyone who does that for a living.

"The war in Iraq is evil and must be stopped."

Now does that not imply that those fighting the war are also evil? After all no one forced them into that postition it was voluntary.
This is not their sole job as being part of the military. If their entire job was based upon issues with which I did not agree, I could not support them.

You can not say that ones profession is immoral without implying that they themselves are immoral.
The implication may be there to some people, but not all people. If a woman who is pro-life is married to a federal judge, who upholds the Roe v. Wade precedent because it is valid law, does that mean she doesn't support her husband in his job?

Thus, it all comes down to whether or not someone supports the profession as a whole. But again, no one can tell me how I feel about this issue, as they are not me. I absolutely DETEST the number of deaths that the war in Iraq has caused (Afghanistan excluded) because I cannot stand that people are dying over this bogus piece of crap war. Hmmmm, how can that remotely indicate that I don't care or don't support these people? My heart breaks for them. I could say that those who support this war don't support our troops because they seem to not care that soldiers are dying over the war. But I won't say that because I am not them.
 

aps

Passionate
DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 25, 2005
Messages
15,675
Reaction score
2,979
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Liberal
Trajan Octavian Titus said:
But he's an evil neo-Conservative Republican and AND he's a Christian. :shock:
You're right. I have changed my mind. ;)
 

cnredd

Major General Big Lug
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 5, 2005
Messages
8,682
Reaction score
262
Location
Philadelphia,PA
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Conservative
aps said:
I absolutely DETEST the number of deaths that the war in Iraq has caused (Afghanistan excluded) because I cannot stand that people are dying over this bogus piece of crap war.
Did you equally DETEST the half-million-plus people that died BEFORE the war?...Would you have equally DETESTED that regime for the thousands of future deaths had there been no war?...

Or did they just not matter to you?...
 

aps

Passionate
DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 25, 2005
Messages
15,675
Reaction score
2,979
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Liberal
cnredd said:
Did you equally DETEST the half-million-plus people that died BEFORE the war?...Would you have equally DETESTED that regime for the thousands of future deaths had there been no war?...

Or did they just not matter to you?...
I care more about Americans than I do Iraqis. Sorry, but that's true.
 

Binary_Digit

DP Veteran
Joined
May 21, 2005
Messages
4,145
Reaction score
1,638
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian
OMG he called us wussies? What a compelling argument, I guess we better hurry and support the mission now! :roll:

(Reposted from several months ago. Not surprisingly, Navy Pride chose to avoid the topic.)

http://www.debatepolitics.com/showthread.php?t=6425&highlight=support+troops+mission

As a Navy veteran of 5 years, I'm surprised at the other vets who accuse anti-war Americans of not supporting the troops. Disregarding the fact that denouncing the opposition's patriotism is intellectually equivalent to calling them schoolyard names, it seems that some veterans and many non-vets have forgotten what the role of the military actually is.

The military does not dictate foreign policy any more than a gun dictates who it shoots. Just like a gun, the military is a tool, and a tool is only as good as the tool who uses it. And just like the troops, I support a citizen's right to own a gun, but I don't support the killing of an "undeserving" person with it. Whether or not Iraq was "undeserving" should be the argument. Not anyone's patriotism.

If you're concerned about whether the lack of mission support at home might demoralize the troops, or offer encouragement to the enemy, that's a good point. But let us never forget that Americans have a Constitutional obligation to criticize our government whenever necessary and appropriate, and that includes wartime. Especially wartime. This "aiding and abeding the enemy" argument will always be a factor if we continue to be Americans during war. Obviously the criticism should be centered on facts, not conspiracy theories. But the right of American citizens to criticise their government is exactly what every United States soldier and sailor take a solemn vow to defend:

"I, [name], do solemnly swear [or affirm] that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. [So help me God.]"

So the fact that we are debating and criticizing our government's actions should encourage them, not demoralize them.

Our soldiers have kicked ass and taken names. They have done everything they were designed to do, and many things they were not, and they did it bravely and professionally. They should get absolutely everything they need. The best equipment, the best training, and the best Christmas cards from us at home. I support the troops. Our President cherry-picked intelligence on pre-war Iraq, exaggerated the link between al'Qaeda and Iraq, and overstated Saddam Hussein's ambitions to directly or indirectly initiate an attack against the United States. I don't support their mission.
 

oldreliable67

DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 3, 2005
Messages
4,641
Reaction score
1,102
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Joel Stein is a columnist for the LAT. According to blogger Hugh Hewitt,

"Mr. Stein really doesn't know anyone on active duty, hasn't been to any bases or any of the service academies, hasn't met with wounded or returning troops, and generally admits to being blissfully ignorant of the military. He could not recount a single book he has read about the military, and doesn't even know how big it is. He thinks the soldiers, sailors, airmen and Marines who have died in the GWOT have died in vain. He does not feel grateful for their service."

Here is the column Joel Stein wrote in the LAT:

"I DON'T SUPPORT our troops. This is a particularly difficult opinion to have, especially if you are the kind of person who likes to put bumper stickers on his car. Supporting the troops is a position that even Calvin is unwilling to urinate on."
...
"But blaming the president is a little too easy. The truth is that people who pull triggers are ultimately responsible, whether they're following orders or not. An army of people making individual moral choices may be inefficient, but an army of people ignoring their morality is horrifying. An army of people ignoring their morality, by the way, is also Jack Abramoff's pet name for the House of Representatives.
I do sympathize with people who joined up to protect our country, especially after 9/11, and were tricked into fighting in Iraq. I get mad when I'm tricked into clicking on a pop-up ad, so I can only imagine how they feel."

...
"I'm not advocating that we spit on returning veterans like they did after the Vietnam War, but we shouldn't be celebrating people for doing something we don't think was a good idea. All I'm asking is that we give our returning soldiers what they need: hospitals, pensions, mental health and a safe, immediate return. But, please, no parades.
Seriously, the traffic is insufferable. "


Following the publication, Stein was interviewed by Hugh Hewitt, part of which follows:

HH: Let me ask you a tough question, Joel, because this is the toughest one. J.P. Blecksmith was a young Marine lieutenant, graduated from Annapolis, killed in Fallujah on November 11th, 2004. Just a tremendous human being and man. If you meet his parents on the street, what do you say to them?
JS: That I'm so, so sorry.

HH: Do you honor the service that their son did?

JS: To honor the service their son...now this is a dumb question, but what do you mean by honor? That's a word you keep using. I'm not entirely...maybe that's my problem. But I'm not entirely sure what you're...

HH: Honor usually means gratitude and esteem. Are you grateful for and esteem what he did? Honestly?

JS: Honestly? I admire the bravery. I don't...you know, I feel like he did something I could never do, so I'm kind of in awe on some level. Am I grateful, that I feel like he protected me? Um, no I don't.

HH: And so, do you think he died in vain?

JS: Yeah. I do. And that's why I'm so horrified by all this, and why I don't want empty sentiments prolonging the war.

HH: And the people who've died in Afghanistan. Have they died in vain?

JS: Well, if they haven't, what have they accomplished?

HH: I'm asking you, Joel. You wrote the column. You tell me. Have they accomplished nothing?

JS: Well, um, do I think that I, as an American, are safer because of what they did?

HH: That wasn't what I asked. I askd did they accomplish anything in going to Afghanistan.

JS: If I were an Afghani, I would probably...if I lived in Kabul, I probably would think that they accomplished something, sure.

HH: All right. Now have you read any books on the military? I mean, do you read this stuff at all, like Robert Kaplan's Imperial Grunts?

JS: No. No, I'm not an expert at this at all. I mean, I think you certainly can tell.
Source.

Stein certainly has the courage of his convictions. Not. This column is superficial and pandering.
 

shuamort

Pundit-licious
DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 4, 2005
Messages
7,297
Reaction score
1,000
Location
Saint Paul, MN
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Mod Note

Moving thread to War on Iraq forum.

/Mod Note
 
Top Bottom