This is what marriage is about...

[CaptainCourtesy]

no. because marriage is indeed wrapped up in gender. not necessarily sexual orientation, mind you.

Explain how it is wrapped up in gender.

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

My ideology is based on two simple concepts.... Right and Wrong. There's really nothing more to it than that. As to how much "superior" my beliefs are... that really depends on what they're compared to. In some cases only marginally; and in other cases completely. It all comes down to how close that alternative philosophy is to the simple matrix of Right vs. Wrong.

To YOUR matrix of right and wrong.

Every time, Tigger.

 

[Tigger]

your beliefs are superior to no one's beliefs. i'm not sure you've really had an opportunity to form your own beliefs, didn't you just now get your own place? maybe a few years of living in the real world will temper you.

I lived for 13 years with a pair of roommates, and just recently moved into my own place (without roommates) for the first time. Trust me, the two of them had almost nothing in common, philosophically with me, and that in the end is why we are no longer living together.

So, how did you determine Right vs. Wrong; or did sombody do that for you?

It's a combination of what I was taught by my parents, family, and society in my youth and my own personal experience, research, reading, etc.... A large part of it came from what I was taught as a child.

i take it you have no reality foundation. are you scared you might actually BE gay? your vehemence and strong words and self loathing suggest it might be so. are your parent rabidly anti-gay?

No, I'm completely and totally straight, thank you very much. My self-loathing has nothing to do with my sexual orientation, thank you very much. My parents were strongly anti-gay. Of course you have to realize my mother is the daughter of a Lutheran minister from Minnesota and my father came from an extremely conservative and religious family as well.

Tigger was explaining to us how he has come to a way of judging people. He hasn't yet explained the roots of his conclusions etc. Maybe he hasn't considered them in any detail. And his views are so strong compared to mine; therefore, my methodology might be incorrect. If he can support how he has developed such strong correctness I may have to change. So, misterman and liblady, posts like this misterman one are not helpful.

My views, beliefs, and philosophy have come to be based on what I was taught as a child, my own personal experiences, and my research (reading, etc...) into the topics of History, Religion, Spirituality, and Philosophy. I'm not here to change anyone's mind. That has never been my reason for saying or doing anything.

 

[misterman]

Tigger was explaining to us how he has come to a way of judging people. He hasn't yet explained the roots of his conclusions etc. Maybe he hasn't considered them in any detail. And his views are so strong compared to mine; therefore, my methodology might be incorrect. If he can support how he has developed such strong correctness I may have to change. So, misterman and liblady, posts like this misterman one are not helpful.

I disagree completely. The roots are his conclusions are now irrelevant, since they are entirely inconsistent. He's busy lecturing everyone about morality and marriage while boinking a lady who is not his wife.

 

[misterman]

fixed that for you.

Well played.

 

[American]

A good ad from Australia promoting the cause of ending marriage discrimination. The religious right repetitively tries to demonize gays by arguing that being gay is just about sex and that same sex marriage has nothing to do with love and commitment. It is these kinds of ads that we need here in the United States that get right to the heart of the issue.

Oh, another gay marriage thread. I was actually expecting something new. Sorry for the interuption, carry on.

 

[roguenuke]

Oh, another gay marriage thread. I was actually expecting something new. Sorry for the interuption, carry on.

Yeah, I wonder what it would take to get people to stop posting these threads.

I GOT IT! Legalizing same sex marriage.

 

[American]

Yeah, I wonder what it would take to get people to stop posting these threads.

I GOT IT! Legalizing same sex marriage.

I doubt it.

 

[roguenuke]

I doubt it.

Doubt that it will happen? It is likely to happen in the US alone in the next decade, 15 years top, maybe sooner. It could certainly be sooner in Australia.

And what else would there be to ask for after same sex marriage is legal, with the exact same benefits/rights as opposite sex marriage? Sure, you will have a few people who want something more, such as full acceptance (which is a ridiculous request to make) and/or religious freedoms taken away to perform their marriages (which is another ridiculous request to make and not likely to be supported by anywhere near a majority of same sex marriage supporters). The majority of people want equality. Marriage equality means allowing couples to legally marry no matter what sex the two people are. If you don't want a same sex marriage, don't get into one.

 

[American]

Doubt that it will happen? It is likely to happen in the US alone in the next decade, 15 years top, maybe sooner. It could certainly be sooner in Australia.

And what else would there be to ask for after same sex marriage is legal, with the exact same benefits/rights as opposite sex marriage? Sure, you will have a few people who want something more, such as full acceptance (which is a ridiculous request to make) and/or religious freedoms taken away to perform their marriages (which is another ridiculous request to make and not likely to be supported by anywhere near a majority of same sex marriage supporters). The majority of people want equality. Marriage equality means allowing couples to legally marry no matter what sex the two people are. If you don't want a same sex marriage, don't get into one.

I can't wait until the divorces begin.

 

[roguenuke]

I can't wait until the divorces begin.

I don't care.

People make mistakes. Including in who they marry and in whether or not to leave or stay with a person.

Opposite sex couples divorce all the time.

I thought for sure my parents would stay together after being married 20 years and having 6 kids. But then my father found someone older and left my mom with 4 kids still at home. It sucks, but it's life.

 

[Your Star]

...but the one does not necessarily lead to the other. I'm just saying that the ad is emotionally appealing, but it's actual argument doesn't follow.

But the one should be a pre-requisite to the other, not legally obviously, but as a society we generally see marriage as a union between two loving people. So why shouldn't two loving people be able to marry? Who cares what gender they are as long as they love each other, why are you putting these artificial barriers up to the institution? Which really don't make any sense, or serve any real purpose.

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

Yeah, I wonder what it would take to get people to stop posting these threads.

I GOT IT! Legalizing same sex marriage.

Nah. Abortion is legal and people still post about it.

 

[misterman]

Have you ever thought that maybe I just don't give a crap what other people think?

And yet others are supposed to care what you think?

 

[Your Star]

Nah. Abortion is legal and people still post about it.

But it will shift from pro-SSM people posting threads trying to convince others, to anti-SSM posters posting threads bitching about how it is ruining society. Those will be funny at the time, and I doubt I would post much in them. I'm already tired of debating the topic, but I'm compelled too because it's an issue so close to me. Once it's legal I could give too ****s what people think, as long as it's in no danger of becoming banned.

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

But it will shift from pro-SSM people posting threads trying to convince others, to anti-SSM posters posting threads bitching about how it is ruining society.

Yup. Exactly.

Those will be funny at the time, and I doubt I would post much in them. I'm already tired of debating the topic, but I'm compelled too because it's an issue so close to me. Once it's legal I could give too ****s what people think, as long as it's in no danger of becoming banned.

Eh, I'll just do what I do now. Educate and correct inaccuracies.

 

[Your Star]

Eh, I'll just do what I do now. Educate and correct inaccuracies.

With this one issue, for me I really want to change people's opinions, but with my time here I know that just doesn't happen often, if at all. And it's just really exhausting trying to debate like that. With other issues I can just let people wallow in their ignorance, but with this one, it's hard for me to do.

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

With this one issue, for me I really want to change people's opinions, but with my time here I know that just doesn't happen often, if at all. And it's just really exhausting trying to debate like that. With other issues I can just let people wallow in their ignorance, but with this one, it's hard for me to do.

Nah. I long ago ceased trying to convince people of the error of their opinions. I now operate in debate in the following ways:

1) To present my position as clearly, strongly, and as well as possible.
2) To debunk, humiliate, and expose as flawed my opponents position as much as possible.
3) To provide educate and or information on a particular issue.
4) To assist those who may be on the fence (through points 1-3) to make an intelligent decision on where they stand.

The "true believers" are never going to change their mind. Present your position as best as you can and destroy theirs as completely as you can. That's about all you can do.

 

[Your Star]

Nah. I long ago ceased trying to convince people of the error of their opinions. I now operate in debate in the following ways:

1) To present my position as clearly, strongly, and as well as possible.
2) To debunk, humiliate, and expose as flawed my opponents position as much as possible.
3) To provide educate and or information on a particular issue.
4) To assist those who may be on the fence (through points 1-3) to make an intelligent decision on where they stand.

The "true believers" are never going to change their mind. Present your position as best as you can and destroy theirs as completely as you can. That's about all you can do.

That's a good mindset to have. I'm just young, and have this thing called hope, it's a real bitch.

 

[OhIsee.Then]

It's a combination of what I was taught by my parents, family, and society in my youth and my own personal experience, research, reading, etc.... A large part of it came from what I was taught as a child.

My views, beliefs, and philosophy have come to be based on what I was taught as a child, my own personal experiences, and my research (reading, etc...) into the topics of History, Religion, Spirituality, and Philosophy. I'm not here to change anyone's mind. That has never been my reason for saying or doing anything.

Good. So the question is: When one is taught some things as a child that child has no ability to judge the teachings veracity. The basis of Right and Wrong are an example. I mentioned how my personal experiences that led me to be more open to how people behaved, but you discounted them. In fact you discounted the international span of my experiences, so I have to guess that your experiences have been narrower than mine. (However has your reading been open?) I accept that you are not trying to change my mind, but understanding what you think I did incorrectly in coming to my point of view on the topic of this thread and I’m sure other things.
So, what did I do wrong?

 

[cpwill]

Only in your opinion (and those who wish to believe it is) is marriage wrapped up in gender.

If your marriage is based purely on the gender of the person you are married to, then why not pick any woman you want, who would also agree to it, to marry?

well, firstly marriage is not based purely on gender. it is simply dependent upon it. and because I would want the best possible marriage, not any possible marriage.

Why did you pick the particular woman you did to make such a commitment to and to enter into the legal contract of marriage with?

I know why I picked the man I did, because I love him and he loves me. Without that love, it wouldn't matter how much I was just attracted to him nor how much of a "good catch" he would be for me. I don't want to be married to someone I don't actually love, trust, and want to be faithful and honorable to. That should be what marriage is about.

I agree, in a marriage, one should love their spouse, and certainly one should honor and remain faithful to them. but it is not a requirement for "marriage".

 

[cpwill]

But it will shift from pro-SSM people posting threads trying to convince others, to anti-SSM posters posting threads bitching about how it is ruining society. Those will be funny at the time, and I doubt I would post much in them. I'm already tired of debating the topic, but I'm compelled too because it's an issue so close to me. Once it's legal I could give too ****s what people think, as long as it's in no danger of becoming banned.

well, then you should know that that last part will probably depend on the manner of it's legalization. if it is done with public support, then there won't be. If it is done against the public will, then there will indeed immediately spring up such a movement.

 

[Tigger]

Good. So the question is: When one is taught some things as a child that child has no ability to judge the teachings veracity. The basis of Right and Wrong are an example. I mentioned how my personal experiences that led me to be more open to how people behaved, but you discounted them. In fact you discounted the international span of my experiences, so I have to guess that your experiences have been narrower than mine. (However has your reading been open?) I accept that you are not trying to change my mind, but understanding what you think I did incorrectly in coming to my point of view on the topic of this thread and I’m sure other things.
So, what did I do wrong?

I can only guess at what you did wrong. My suggestion is that you probably fall into the very wide super-majority of people whose experiences and teachers were TOO diverse and not sufficiently focused on a single, common message without variation or allowance for debate on the issues. The fact that you have traveled abroad lends credibility to that belief in my mind.

My reading is fairly diverse but I won't claim it is truly impartial or even-handed by any stretch of the imagination.

 

[OhIsee.Then]

I can only guess at what you did wrong. My suggestion is that you probably fall into the very wide super-majority of people whose experiences and teachers were TOO diverse and not sufficiently focused on a single, common message without variation or allowance for debate on the issues. The fact that you have traveled abroad lends credibility to that belief in my mind.

My reading is fairly diverse but I won't claim it is truly impartial or even-handed by any stretch of the imagination.

I did get from my parents direction on how to evaluate the world from a very early age. This included how to determine what are good solutions for a problem and bad solutions. This has worked in design engineering and when visiting other cultures, foreign and domestic. In fact I find people like you in other cultures. I don’t mean that their answers are the same as yours, but their methodology is the same.

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

That's a good mindset to have. I'm just young, and have this thing called hope, it's a real bitch.

My high school yearbook quote says it all:

THE ENOUGH IS ENOUGH THEORY:

The more you run over a dead cat, the flatter it gets.

There's nothing wrong with hope, but there is something wrong with banging your head against a concrete wall and expecting the wall to say, "oh, I'm sorry... I'll move for you."