This is the perfect description of anti-trans people...

[zincwarrior]

I live with it every day, some days its my superpower.

Yes. My Daughter is kind of light on it. She compensates with sticky notes and such but can be manically effortful in working.
The Boy is just this side of Rain Man. On the one hand he doesn't take social cues at all and forgets things like wearing both shoes. On the other hand he is a legit mathmatics genius and is currently at a post doc at Princeton. He compensated by getting an Aggie wife who can manage him like a drill sergeant when needed. And she's the smart one...


To the topic. In essence I don't care what you do as long as it doesn't negatively impact others. I disagree about surgeries etc on minors as a matter of policy. Other than that avoid women's sports and women's scholarships. My only suggestion for trans is that they need to get a mentor of the gender they view themselves as: learning how to do makeup is a thing. Inversely learning how to shave and squeeze the shit out of a man's hand while looking at him in the eye is a thing too*

* From experience. I did this with a family friend.

 

[beefheart]

Yes. My Daughter is kind of light on it. She compensates with sticky notes and such but can be manically effortful in working.
The Boy is just this side of Rain Man. On the one hand he doesn't take social cues at all and forgets things like wearing both shoes. On the other hand he is a legit mathmatics genius and is currently at a post doc at Princeton. He compensated by getting an Aggie wife who can manage him like a drill sergeant when needed. And she's the smart one...


To the topic. In essence I don't care what you do as long as it doesn't negatively impact others. I disagree about surgeries etc on minors as a matter of policy. Other than that avoid women's sports and women's scholarships. My only suggestion for trans is that they need to get a mentor of the gender they view themselves as: learning how to do makeup is a thing. Inversely learning how to shave and squeeze the shit out of a man's hand while looking at him in the eye is a thing too*

* From experience. I did this with a family friend.

I'm good with mine, I take a dextro in the mornings on work days, its not a 24 hour thing. Helps me focus on work that can be so dreadfully boring and repetitive, but I work at home and the pay/benefits are great. I am the one on the team that others turn to so they can get a different look at certain problems, because of my analytical skills. The biggest hurdle with ADHD is realizing you have it, then you can harness the good from it and minimize the stuff that doesn't work in the real world.

I have a friend whose son is midway transition female to male. She is terrified for him, he is a good, talented guy, you would never know his status from looking at him, but he faces so much hate and ignorance on a daily basis, that wears people out.

 

[CaughtInThe]

It's the same people that 15 years ago were anti-gay, they just changed the word gay to trans.

yup

 

[holbritter]

I'd like to point out that just because you don't agree with everything regarding the trans community, DOES NOT make you a transphobe.
Disagreement and different point of view DOES NOT equal fear (phobia).

 

[Gozaburo]

Transgender people are not delusional because of the incongruent gender identity. If you would bother to read the DSM entry for the transgender diagnosis you would know this. If you would read the DSM entry for delusions, trans people are not mentioned.

This seems like a very semantic argument. Hardly surprising since no one from the other side ever approaches this debate in good faith. A transsexual's conception of their gender does not comport with the biological reality they were born with. What do we say when someone's brain chemistry prevents them from being able to match their conception of reality with observed reality?

There is no form of talk theorapy or psychotropic medical combinations that would change a persons from being transgender to cisgender.

Except that wasn't my claim. There is no form of therapy or medicine that can change a person from schizophrenic to not-schizophrenic. This is true of most mental ailments. They can simply be reduced or mitigated.

Would reading and learning instead of forming transphobic opinions be too woke for you to embrace?

I try, but unfortunately most people result to strawmanning, non sequiturs, and appeals to authority when I do. Hard to learn when the opposite side impulsively engages in fallacious argumentation.

 

[Gozaburo]

No, you are spouting off complete uneducated bullshit about the subject. Just admit you hate people that you don't understand, that would make it so much easier.

Not an argument.

Wasn't sure were needed to measure appendages.
This thread isn't about that.
Learn things, expand your horizon.

Not an argument.

It seems that they are mentally unwell because of societal attitude towards them, not the other way around.

Do you have evidence for this claim? Is your hypothesis that social stigmata dramatically elevate levels of suicide and mental illness?

So to prove this hypothesis can we look at any minority group during times of social oppression? Homosexuals? Blacks during Jim Crow? Albanians during Milošević?

Or do we arbitrarily make an exception for this group for the sole reason that there is no other explanatory variable (outside of mental illness) for their absurd levels of suicide, depression, antisocial behavior, and other forms of mental instability?

 

[holbritter]

FFS, I don't have any problem with trans people and never have, and I'll bet ten bucks NO ONE here of the straight persuasion on DP ever has either.
For one thing, I've only met/known three trans people socially in my ENTIRE LIFE, sixty-eight years.

I used to move in an industry (TV-film) DOMINATED by groups outside the standard genetic and sexual orientation and in my forty years, I worked with two makeup/wardrobe people who I knew were trans, and one set painter/carpenter. All of them were fairly normal.

My point is, there's probably more Chick-Fil-A employees than trans people in the entire country and yet MAGA Christian Nationalist whackos are acting like it's some growing fifth column invasion, which is bullshit.

America has proven that a majority of its people are hair-trigger superstitionist whack jobs who subscribe to every manufactured moral panic that gets put out there.
The Righties began attacking public education four decades ago and they finally achieved their objective, a sullen, intellectually immature populace moved easily by anger and impervious to facts.
It should serve them very well next time we face a serious crisis that requires us to respond with some semblance of national unity....NOT!
They made this bed and we're all going to have to sleep in it but that includes them as well.

If they think they are immune from the consequences, they're in for a very rude awakening.

Can I ask why then, should we change things, retrofit buildings for bathrooms, change laws, legislate etc... for so few people then?

If there are 500 people in a room, and because two are trans, then the other 498 have to suck it up and not have any opinion or feelings about it?

I personally don't care if someone is trans or not, but that argument holds no water. Majority rule should be used consistently.

 

[reinaert]

Except not really.

I don't know what "science" is being referred to here, but lets say for the sake of argument I grant all claims about transsexuality, that it is a trait people are born with, that it is real in terms of brain chemistry, etc.

It doesn't change the fact that this affliction is treated in a uniquely different way from any other deviant behavior or state of mind. Where we medicate psychotics, schizophrenics, ADHD, etc. to bring them to a level where they can function and live lives which comport with reality, we instead tell the transsexual to indulge in their delusions. We allow surgeries that require lifelong maintenance to avoid life threatening consequences. Transsexuals often have heaps of other baggage and antisocial behavior. Elevated levels of autism, absurd levels of suicide and depression, far more likely to be on cocktails of medication, etc.

So the reality is that society is uncomfortable, but rightfully so. These people are often very sick and mentally unwell and unfortunately they're told to indulge in their sickness instead of being afforded the honest support they need to live relatively normative lives.

Because it's not deviancy.

 

[Gozaburo]

Because it's not deviancy.

Definitionally it is deviant. You're trying to view it as a moral category.

 

[Kelby]

On a side note, wife and I watched "Will and Harper" last night on Netflix. It provides insight into the psychological struggles of an older man transitioning into a woman, and the efforts of a long-time friend, Will Ferrell, to understand what he is going through.

I thought it was well done, illustrating the difficulties of an individual's journey in identifying his true nature, and his friends', family, and society's response to it.

I also came away with a new appreciation for the human being that is Will Ferrell.

 

[beefheart]

Because it's not deviancy.

Lack of empathy is deviancy....

 

[reinaert]

Definitionally it is.

Nah. And you are definitely not stupid enough to think the moral barrel scraping isn't inherent in the term, these days. Don't do cowardly plausible deniability. It's a shitty color on a shittier cut of fabric.

You're trying to view it as a moral category.

Nah. You used it the way you did and I'm not stupid enough to pretend not to notice. You could have used 'statistically rarer' or 'small percentage' to convey non-alignment to the mean. You chose deviant. Own it, buddy.

 

[reinaert]

Lack of empathy is deviancy....

It's something.

 

[beefheart]

On a side note, wife and I watched "Will and Harper" last night on Netflix. It provides insight into the psychological struggles of an older man transitioning into a woman, and the efforts of a long-time friend, Will Ferrell, to understand what he is going through.

I thought it was well done, illustrating the difficulties of an individual's journey in identifying his true nature, and his friends', family, and society's response to it.

I also came away with a new appreciation for the human being that is Will Ferrell.

Will is a good guy, he rented an e-bike at my sister's shop, very nice guy met with her family, pictures, autographs. They had an employee take him on a ride through Papago Park and around Arizona State University, he was in town for a USC football game.

 

[beefheart]

It's something.

Its amazing how much oppression throughout world history boils down to people who are messed up sexually.

 

[Lisa]

Can I ask why then, should we change things, retrofit buildings for bathrooms, change laws, legislate etc... for so few people then?

There is no problem to be solved and there never was. This was never even an issue to be discus until Fox and the bigoted right needed a new social war to distract from their failed policies.

If there are 500 people in a room, and because two are trans, then the other 498 have to suck it up and not have any opinion or feelings about it?

I personally don't care if someone is trans or not, but that argument holds no water. Majority rule should be used consistently.

The rights of others are not to be determined by the majority vote. That idea is very predatory because if it was permitted then the majority would target and erase any majority that they chose to attack and harass, merely by being in the majority.

 

[Gozaburo]

Nah. And you are definitely not stupid enough to think the moral barrel scraping isn't inherent in the term, these days. Don't do cowardly plausible deniability. It's a shitty color on a shittier cut of fabric.

Nah. You used it the way you did and I'm not stupid enough to pretend not to notice. You could have used 'statistically rarer' or 'small percentage' to convey non-alignment to the mean. You chose deviant. Own it, buddy.

There's nothing to own. I named a handful of other psychological disorders as being deviant behavior also and it's pretty clear that's not because I think a schizophrenic, for example, is consciously engaging in immoral or malicious behavior. I had mentioned earlier in the thread that if "non-normative" is less triggering than "deviant", then lets say "non-normative". Something like "small percentage" totally lack any descriptive value for the point I'm trying to make.

 

[reinaert]

Its amazing how much oppression throughout world history boils down to people who are messed up sexually.

I'm certainly not making a scientific claim here. Call it a hunch. But, I think there's a whole lot of prurient prudery going on with the antitrans stuff. Like, given where it pr0ns highest, and who won't shut their flapping yaps about it, there seems to be a repulsive attraction that produces fear and self-loathing.

As Haley says to Stan and Roger, maybe they should just **** (a man, a trans woman, their narcissus in the mirror) already and and get it out of their systems.

 

[reinaert]

There's nothing to own. I named a handful of other psychological disorders as being deviant behavior also and it's pretty clear that's not because I think a schizophrenic, for example, is consciously engaging in immoral or malicious behavior. I had mentioned earlier in the thread that if "non-normative" is less triggering than "deviant", then lets say "non-normative". Something like "small percentage" totally lack any descriptive value for the point I'm trying to make.

It's not a disorder. It's not deviant. Full stop. Trying to hide behind jargon and scientese is embarrassing, man. Do better.

 

[cpwill]

Where in that graphic does it say anything about grooming children?

You seem to be adding something that isn't there.

The accusation that all trans / people supporting trans were actually supporting the grooming of children became an occasional right wing accusation a while back.

Like the OP and the people who agreed with it, it's an accusation based on ignorance of the subject.

However, unlike the OP and the people who agreed with it, the grooming accusation's reach was limited, because more folks on the right have a better understanding of folks on the left than folks on the left (who live in more secure and self-reinforcing bubbles, though the right is doing their best to catch up) have of folks on the right.

 

[Taylor]

and yet MAGA Christian Nationalist whackos are acting like it's some growing fifth column invasion, which is bullshit.

Lol - spend some time at your local high school and then compare that to your lived experience in your chosen industry "DOMINATED by groups outside the standard genetic and sexual orientation" and then get back to us.

The small marching band at the public school down the street from me has more self-identified transgender members than you encountered in your entire 40 year career.

 

[Gozaburo]

It's not a disorder. It's not deviant. Full stop. Trying to hide behind jargon and scientese is embarrassing, man. Do better.

Gender dysphoria - Symptoms and causes

www.mayoclinic.org

"A diagnosis for gender dysphoria is included in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-5), a manual published by the American Psychiatric Association. The diagnosis was created to help people with gender dysphoria get access to necessary health care and effective treatment. The term focuses on discomfort as the problem, rather than identity."

Lol

 

[beefheart]

The accusation that all trans / people supporting trans were actually supporting the grooming of children became an occasional right wing accusation a while back.

Like the OP and the people who agreed with it, it's an accusation based on ignorance of the subject.

However, unlike the OP and the people who agreed with it, the grooming accusation's reach was limited, because more folks on the right have a better understanding of folks on the left than folks on the left (who live in more secure and self-reinforcing bubbles, though the right is doing their best to catch up) have of folks on the right.

Meanwhile, they ignore the near daily stories of religious youth group leaders, priests, and GOP politicians busted for sex crimes...

The ignorance is astounding.

 

[Tettsuo]

Gender dysphoria - Symptoms and causes

www.mayoclinic.org

"A diagnosis for gender dysphoria is included in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-5), a manual published by the American Psychiatric Association. The diagnosis was created to help people with gender dysphoria get access to necessary health care and effective treatment. The term focuses on discomfort as the problem, rather than identity."

Lol

Do you believe being gay is deviant?

 

[reinaert]

Gender dysphoria - Symptoms and causes

www.mayoclinic.org

"A diagnosis for gender dysphoria is included in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-5), a manual published by the American Psychiatric Association. The diagnosis was created to help people with gender dysphoria get access to necessary health care and effective treatment. The term focuses on discomfort as the problem, rather than identity."

Lol

It's not a disorder. Trans people can function fine in civil society if left alone and afforded care. They are not borderline personalities or any given son of Trump. Just because the publisher of the DSM hasn't changed its name, doesn't make everything between its covers a disorder.

***

I am fully aphantasic. Just less than 2% of the population have some form of aphantasia, and of those within that spectrum, full aphantasics represent less than half, and probably less than a third.

I do not 'have' what you (generally speaking) imaginal self-narrators and hallucinators might understand as an "inner life". I cannot and have never picture[d] an image, hear[d] a sound 'in my head', re-experience[d] a memory, sensation or scent, or hear[d]/felt/see[n] myself think. I am not plagued by the incessantly yappy, critical little homunculous you all seem to port around between your ears.

Am I a deviant?