• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!
  • Welcome to our archives. No new posts are allowed here.

This is a Liberal Country

Billo_Really

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 6, 2005
Messages
18,930
Reaction score
1,040
Location
HBCA
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Liberal
This is a liberal country founded on liberal principles.
Liberalism is an ideology, or current of political thought, which strives to maximize liberty. [1] Liberalism seeks a society characterized by freedom of thought for individuals, limitations on the power of government and religion, the rule of law, the free exchange of ideas, a free market economy that supports private enterprise, and a system of government that is transparent. This form of government favors liberal democracy with open and fair elections, where all citizens have equal rights by law, and an equal opportunity to succeed. Liberalism rejected many foundational assumptions which dominated most earlier theories of government, such as the divine right of kings, hereditary status, and established religion. Fundamental human rights that all liberals support include the right to life, liberty, and property.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism
For some of you conservatives, it is time to embrace the horror. We are a liberal country that tolerates conservative views.
 

coop

New member
Joined
Dec 31, 2005
Messages
3
Reaction score
0
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
Haha, I agree
 

M14 Shooter

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 30, 2005
Messages
2,622
Reaction score
68
Location
Toledo-ish OH
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
Billo_Really said:
This is a liberal country founded on liberal principles.
For some of you conservatives, it is time to embrace the horror. We are a liberal country that tolerates conservative views.

You're describing the Classic American Liberal.
Those guys, today, would be called Libertarians.

The Modern American Liberal is a socialist.
If you cannot admit that to us, you could at least try to admit it to yourself.
 

Axismaster

Active member
Joined
Jan 6, 2006
Messages
296
Reaction score
1
Location
Michigan
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
The men who founded this nation were liberals indeed, but classical liberals, not socialists like modern liberals. All in all, they would be considered libertarians by today's standards. Socially liberal or moderate, fiscally conservative.
 

Billo_Really

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 6, 2005
Messages
18,930
Reaction score
1,040
Location
HBCA
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Liberal
Originally posted by M14 Shooter:
You're describing the Classic American Liberal.
Those guys, today, would be called Libertarians.

The Modern American Liberal is a socialist.
If you cannot admit that to us, you could at least try to admit it to yourself.
I admit it. Back to you.
 

128shot

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 19, 2005
Messages
1,258
Reaction score
31
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
I don't see "classical liberal" as a real term. you are either liberal, or you are socialist, or whatever. you can't subsitute these kinds of things. A liberal is a liberal, anything else you would have to tact on to the word, which I can see many do..


Thats my humble opinion at least.
 

SouthernDemocrat

Pragmatist
DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 23, 2005
Messages
25,148
Reaction score
16,098
Location
KC
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Moderate
M14 Shooter said:
You're describing the Classic American Liberal.
Those guys, today, would be called Libertarians.

The Modern American Liberal is a socialist.
If you cannot admit that to us, you could at least try to admit it to yourself.

That is not totally accurate. American Liberals are social liberals, just like classic liberals, but they are economic progressives, and that is where they differ. Today's conservatives though, by and large are social conservatives and economic ideologues. Which is much further from classic liberalism than modern liberals are. A classic liberal would be a social libertarian and an economic pragmatist.

Hell if liberals would just hold the same social views they hold now, and accept that there is a near absolute constitutional right to gun ownership, and be a little more pragmatic in their economic ideals (more like Bush Sr. or Clinton in that regard), then they would be pretty much right in line with the founding ideology of this country.

Other than environmental regulation, a basic safety net for society, common defense and building infrastructure, government is not the answer. (and government is certainly not the answer for promoting religion or moral ideals)
 

Billo_Really

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 6, 2005
Messages
18,930
Reaction score
1,040
Location
HBCA
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Liberal
I've never really had an opinion on the 2nd Amendment other than it doesn't mean jack-sh!t. The reason it was enacted doesn't apply anymore. You're not going to get any militia that will have the gun power to stop an Abrams tank. If the federal govenment wants to take your guns, their going to do it. This was proven at Ruby Ridge. It was also proven at Waco. I don't understand why this Amendment is such a big god-damn deal.
 

M14 Shooter

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 30, 2005
Messages
2,622
Reaction score
68
Location
Toledo-ish OH
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
Billo_Really said:
I admit it. Back to you.

So then... don't try to pass off your ideology as that of the Classic American Liberal.
 

Kandahar

Enemy Combatant
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 20, 2005
Messages
20,688
Reaction score
7,320
Location
Washington, DC
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
SouthernDemocrat said:
That is not totally accurate. American Liberals are social liberals, just like classic liberals, but they are economic progressives, and that is where they differ.

There is nothing "progressive" about socialism, because that very word implies that socialism is somehow helping our economy to progress when in reality it does exactly the opposite.

SouthernDemocrat said:
Today's conservatives though, by and large are social conservatives and economic ideologues.

Umm, there are a lot of bad things to say about the modern GOP's attitute toward economic policy, but ideological is not one of them. You can't be an economic ideologue if you don't have any economic principles. If anything, the Democrats policy of wealth redistribution is more ideological because most of them sincerely (but incorrectly) believe that they're helping people by stealing their money. The Republicans, in contrast, are also big spenders, but it is done out of sheer cynicism to buy votes or to buy financial support.

SouthernDemocrat said:
Which is much further from classic liberalism than modern liberals are. A classic liberal would be a social libertarian and an economic pragmatist.

What is pragmatic about socialism?

SouthernDemocrat said:
Hell if liberals would just hold the same social views they hold now, and accept that there is a near absolute constitutional right to gun ownership, and be a little more pragmatic in their economic ideals (more like Bush Sr. or Clinton in that regard), then they would be pretty much right in line with the founding ideology of this country.

Comparing Bush Sr. or Clinton to our Founding Fathers in terms of economic policy is beyond a stretch. They have absolutely nothing in common. I don't recall Washington or Adams or Jefferson stealing 15+ percent of the nation's GDP.
 

Billo_Really

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 6, 2005
Messages
18,930
Reaction score
1,040
Location
HBCA
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Liberal
Originally Posted by M14 Shooter
So then... don't try to pass off your ideology as that of the Classic American Liberal.
Well excuuuuuse me. I don't even know what a Classic American Liberal is!
 

Deegan

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 1, 2005
Messages
5,528
Reaction score
2
Location
Chicago
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
Billo_Really said:
Well excuuuuuse me. I don't even know what a Classic American Liberal is!

He's correct, the far left has hi-jacked that respected group, it's hardly even recognizable today, sadly enough.
 

Billo_Really

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 6, 2005
Messages
18,930
Reaction score
1,040
Location
HBCA
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Liberal
Originally posted by Deegan:
He's correct, the far left has hi-jacked that respected group, it's hardly even recognizable today, sadly enough.
That still doesn't tell me what it is.
 

Deegan

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 1, 2005
Messages
5,528
Reaction score
2
Location
Chicago
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
Billo_Really said:
That still doesn't tell me what it is.


Just think "hippie" without all the anger, and vitriol rhetoric, the new face looks something like this........


Turner.jpg
 

Billo_Really

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 6, 2005
Messages
18,930
Reaction score
1,040
Location
HBCA
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Liberal
Originally posted by Deegan:
Just think "hippie" without all the anger, and vitriol rhetoric, the new face looks something like this........
Not to be confused with...

bushfuriousgeorge26xw.jpg
 

Deegan

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 1, 2005
Messages
5,528
Reaction score
2
Location
Chicago
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
Billo_Really said:
Not to be confused with...

bushfuriousgeorge26xw.jpg

Well that's cute, but I thought you were trying to educate yourself further, I guess you would rather just stay uninformed.;)
 

Billo_Really

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 6, 2005
Messages
18,930
Reaction score
1,040
Location
HBCA
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Liberal
Originally posted by Deegan:
Well that's cute, but I thought you were trying to educate yourself further, I guess you would rather just stay uninformed
Well, where did all the love go in this room? I thought you made your point and I was just having a little after-point fun.
 

Deegan

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 1, 2005
Messages
5,528
Reaction score
2
Location
Chicago
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
Billo_Really said:
Well, where did all the love go in this room? I thought you made your point and I was just having a little after-point fun.

I guess it left with our president in a curious George suit, but maybe I am just too sensitive.:lol:
 

M14 Shooter

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 30, 2005
Messages
2,622
Reaction score
68
Location
Toledo-ish OH
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
Billo_Really said:
Well excuuuuuse me. I don't even know what a Classic American Liberal is!

As I said... you described one in your original post.
 

Billo_Really

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 6, 2005
Messages
18,930
Reaction score
1,040
Location
HBCA
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Liberal
Originally Posted by M14 Shooter
As I said... you described one in your original post.
If a Classic American Liberal is what I described in my first post. And my ideology is in concert with what I described in my first post. How is my ideology not that of a Classic American Liberal?
 

Stu Ghatze

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 30, 2005
Messages
531
Reaction score
0
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
Billo_Really said:
This is a liberal country founded on liberal principles.
For some of you conservatives, it is time to embrace the horror. We are a liberal country that tolerates conservative views.




Not to be disrespectful to some peoples views let me say this:

NO...we are NOT a liberal country, ..we APPRECIATE liberty, & freedoms but not under the guise, or modern definition of the word; "liberal".

The statement that "America is a liberal country" of course is the ruse, & falsehood that MANY in the media, ....& the modern democratic party leadership would HAVE people believe, ..but it is categorically not true!

The issues of early America, or even 1940's America showing concern for enemy combatins "civil rights" & allowing them to sue for damages, ...a convicted murderer's comforts while in prison, the idignation of a FOREIGN enemy of the United States, & their apologists for not recieving constitutional rights, killing a growing baby within the womb as a CIVIL right, INVENTING rights of the sexually immoral (pedophile groups like NAMBLA), & destroying mainstream christianity under the so called clause of "seperation of church & state" WOULD HAVE BEEN UNTHINKABLE!

What WAS "liberal" back in those days were NOT as morally repugnant as the causes that are taken up by the MODERN LIBERALS TODAY, ..& it is doubtful that most, ..if any back then would have been such advocates for the gobblydeegook today.

Of course, ..back THEN is WHEN the democratic party leadership stood for common sense, decency, & morality so much more then, ..as opposed for today! When THEY campaigned on such issues of THAT day, & era....THEY did NOT have to pretend to be something else other than what they were, ..unlike the behavior of MOST democratic party candidates of today!:smile:

Also, ..the most visible results contradicts the author of the topic, ...The MODERN liberals would have WON far MORE presidential, & congressional elections in the last 30 years!! ;)

On the contrare, ..I believe it is TIME for the liberals/democratic party leadership to accept the HORROR & REALITY & PROOF as to why they cannot win elections as they once used to with much regularity, ..& it IS precisely because they simply ARE NOT IN THE MAINSTREAM anymore because of HOW FAR THEY TOOK, & EMBRACED THE MOST ABSURD, dangerous & sometimes reckless LIBERAL IDEOLOGIES & have tried to adjudicate laws through LIBERAL judicial fiat, & activist courts, ..& then FORCE them upon society as a whole!

Conclusion: what was honorable, moral, Godly...& liberal in past American eras, ...is NOT any longer; & it has NO RESEMBLANCE to the modern liberal causes of today.
 
Last edited:

Billo_Really

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 6, 2005
Messages
18,930
Reaction score
1,040
Location
HBCA
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Liberal
Originally posted by Stu Gahtze:
Not to be disrespectful to some peoples views let me say this:

NO...we are NOT a liberal country, ..we APPRECIATE liberty, & freedoms but not under the guise, or modern definition of the word; "liberal".

The statement that "America is a liberal country" of course is the ruse, & falsehood that MANY in the media, ....& the modern democratic party leadership would HAVE people believe, ..but it is categorically not true!

The issues of early America, or even 1940's America showing concern for enemy combatins "civil rights" & allowing them to sue for damages, ...a convicted murderer's comforts while in prison, the idignation of a FOREIGN enemy of the United States, & their apologists for not recieving constitutional rights, killing a growing baby within the womb as a right, INVENTING rights of the sexually immoral (pedophile groups like NAMBLA), & destroying mainstream christianity under the so called clause of "seperation of church & state" WOULD HAVE BEEN UNTHINKABLE!

What WAS "liberal" back in those days were NOT as morally repugnant as the causes that are taken up by the MODERN LIBERALS TODAY, ..& it is doubtful that most, ..if any back then would have been such advocates for the gobblydeegook today.

Of course, ..back THEN is WHEN the democratic party leadership stood for common sense, decency, & morality so much more then, ..as opposed for today! When THEY campaigned on such issues of THAT day, & era....THEY did NOT have to pretend to be something else other than what they were, ..unlike the behavior of MOST democratic party candidates of today!

Also, ..the most visible results contradicts the author of the topic, ...The MODERN liberals would have WON far MORE presidential, & congressional elections in the last 30 years!!

On the contrare, ..I believe it is TIME for the liberals/democratic party leadership to accept the HORROR & REALITY & PROOF as to why they cannot win elections as they once used to with much regularity, ..& it IS precisely because they simply ARE NOT IN THE MAINSTREAM anymore because of HOW FAR THEY TOOK, & EMBRACED THE MOST ABSURD, dangerous & sometimes reckless LIBERAL IDEOLOGIES & have tried to adjudicate laws through LIBERAL judicial fiat, & activist courts, ..& then FORCE them upon society as a whole!

Conclusion: what was honorable, moral, Godly...& liberal in past American eras, ...is NOT any longer; & it BORE NO RESEMBLANCE to the modern liberal causes of today.
It was said on another thread that JFK would be considered, by todays standards, a neo-con. Do you agree with this?
 

Navy Pride

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 11, 2005
Messages
39,883
Reaction score
3,070
Location
Pacific NW
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
Billo_Really said:
This is a liberal country founded on liberal principles.
For some of you conservatives, it is time to embrace the horror. We are a liberal country that tolerates conservative views.

Your dead wrong............This country is made up of moderates..........They control everything..........
 

Billo_Really

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 6, 2005
Messages
18,930
Reaction score
1,040
Location
HBCA
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Liberal
Originally posted by Navy Pride:
You dead wrong............This country is made up of moderates..........
Are you a native american?
 

Stu Ghatze

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 30, 2005
Messages
531
Reaction score
0
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
Billo_Really said:
It was said on another thread that JFK would be considered, by todays standards, a neo-con. Do you agree with this?




Dear Billo_Really, .....in many facets I DO believe that JFK TODAY would swing at the very least to the middle, & in many things closer to the right.

What you, & others describe as JFK being a neo-con, ,..I do not believe there is such a creature that fits that definition.

No offense but ahh, ..it is NOT the conservatives who use judges to sidestep the legislative process in order to adjudicate, & INVENT laws from the bench which is fundamently ILLEGAL. The courts sole role is to ENFORCE existing law,.. not hijack it or twist the words to have it read something that does not exist in the constitution. (something that ideological liberal judges have done for decades)

It is funny, ..if not odd that conservatives were simply conservative about their views on having a fundamental belief in God, love of country, & its traditions, laws & maintaining a strong military etc etc; ...TODAY they are viewed as neo-cons by the most liberal groups.

Conservatism has NOT changed, ..but liberalism HAS changed, & permitted even MORE outrageous social behavior, hackneyed racial views, & immorality has been mainstreamed by hiding under so called "civil rights" statutes...just to name a few!;)

This MODERN form of "liberalism" IS rotting, & dying on the vine; & the election results & failed DNC congressional races, & presidential races ought to be a wake up call to the modern democratic party leadership to distance itself from the most liberal.

The once monopolizing media does NOT have the power as it did once,& other news sources have EXPOSED modern liberalism for all americans to see; ..as well as the cause' & effect of past failed liberal policies that were put into practice.
 
Last edited:
Top Bottom