Things to make you go "hmmmm"

[Aunt Spiker]

I personally suspect that if we all went topless, you'd eventually view it as so normal, that the response to stimuli would dull over time.

And it disturbs me that that's what some people want.

But, thankfully, it will never happen as these sexual interests and appeals have been around for centuries - if not millennium. There's more to it than social engineering.

 

[Kobie]

I'm an ass man and I'm damn glad thong bikinis on women are legal.

 

[ChrisL]

That wasn't the point. If we were living in a huge nudist colony, the sexual turn-on response would pretty quickly be self-limiting to specific situations, as it would become so routine to see naked breasts that a certain amount of mystique and appeal naturally wanes.

Part of the reason that people respond to nudity so quickly, is that it's considered semi-taboo to run around naked in our society. Frequent exposure changes response.

All you have to do is look at some of those isolated tribes of people where the women are topless pretty much as a rule, and it seems like the men aren't even phased by their breasts, so you do have a good point here.

 

[Aunt Spiker]

That wasn't the point. If we were living in a huge nudist colony, the sexual turn-on response would pretty quickly be self-limiting to specific situations, as it would become so routine to see naked breasts that a certain amount of mystique and appeal naturally wanes.

Part of the reason that people respond to nudity so quickly, is that it's considered semi-taboo to run around naked in our society. Frequent exposure changes response.

You know - my father is a nudist. Nudism is just gross. That's all I have to say. It's gross to have to worry about coming into contact with someone's bodily excretions just by sitting down where they sat.

 

[Summerwind]

It's very clear to me.
He has pectoral muscle definition and she has breast tissue.

Breast tissue and the exposed nipple is sexually suggestive. Pectoral muscles are not.

Why is this?

It's a societal value. The breasts are sexualized (as they should be). To expose them, especially if you're an attractive person, is to be sexually alluring/suggestive/inventive.

The male chest, however, is usually a sign of fitness and masculinity. We don't sexualize the muscled chest in that same way. Fitness is what we sexualize.

Clearly - I spite the arguments that women should be allowed to go around topless just because guys do. When people hold this view in an effort the de-sexualize the breast I get offended. I like my breasts to be seen as feminine/attractive/sexy and not what they really are: flabs of fat.

They have a natural purpose, but for me that purpose is long gone - so if they aren't seen as feminine or sexy I'd actually have the removed because, otherwise, they're just disgusting.

Fair enough, for you. But I disagree wholeheartedly with "as they should be." That is part of the attitude that says women dressed a certain way "deserve" to be looked at a particular way, which leads ultimately to "deserving" to be raped. Our body parts should not be any more sexualized than a man's.

 

[Aunt Spiker]

Fair enough, for you. But I disagree wholeheartedly with "as they should be." That is part of the attitude that says women dressed a certain way "deserve" to be looked at a particular way, which leads ultimately to "deserving" to be raped. Our body parts should not be any more sexualized than a man's.

If I said "as they should be allowed to be" would it make you feel better?

If so - then I shall amend.

 

[ChrisL]

You know - my father is a nudist. Nudism is just gross. That's all I have to say. It's gross to have to worry about coming into contact with someone's bodily excretions just by sitting down where they sat.

Ugh! I couldn't agree more with that sentiment! :shock: At LEAST wear underwear for God's sake!

 

[Summerwind]

The point was made that some women feel their breasts are uncomfortable. Women have breast reductions all the time purely because of this.

Why keep them if they bring discomfort? You don't have to put with them if you don't want to. If you don't like them, they're uncomfortable, in the way - then it's a viable option.

My aunt had her breasts significantly reduced in size due to back issues and I've considered it for years. No shame in that. Last I looked over 60K women each year have them reduced - and that's not categorized the same as having them removed due to fear of cancer and other issues of that nature.

Oh, bullcrap. That's not what you meant at all. And besides even flat chested women aren't allowed topless in public, so it not only doesn't solve anything, it only brings into more clarity the disparity of chest exposure of men and women in the US.

 

[Risky Thicket]

View attachment 67165466

One of the best Seinfeld episodes!

 

[Summerwind]

Well look at the OP example: she's sexualizing herself.

So whose fault is that: societies or hers?

If a woman doesn't want to be sexualized then perhaps she should keep her clothes on - not go topless / not pose as model in Sports Illustrated? (Just throwing it out there - it's not as if society has done that to her (RE - the model in the OP))

I see nothing wrong with her being a model and posing and all else - that's what she wants. Yet some women oppose (should I say 'find offense?') that she, the model, is able to do so. Why? They want people to see the model as nothing wow. Not attractive, just a woman with boobs and big whoop. Why?

Ultimately: if people want to reshape society so breasts are sexualized then that means they find what that model is able to do with her body/life to be offensive. Why?

She's just standing there in no more or less provocative pose than the man, though with the man's face cut off it makes it easier to see that woman's face and therefore assume she's coming on to someone, though in actuality, she's got a very neutral expression.

 

[Aunt Spiker]

Oh, bullcrap. That's not what you meant at all. And besides even flat chested women aren't allowed topless in public, so it not only doesn't solve anything, it only brings into more clarity the disparity of chest exposure of men and women in the US.

It seems that the only thing going wrong in this thread is my lack of clear explanation on some of the comments and points I've made.

Don't like it when I take the time to explain it - oh well.

Perhaps I should go back to using bullet points since narrated opinions is too hard for some people to follow.

 

[Summerwind]

If the breasts in question are attractive, I can guarantee you that men are still going to notice them either way regardless.



They might not be the most important aspect of human sexuality. However, it is undeniable that they tend to serve a sexual purpose.

Yes, but you'd notice them pretty much unless they were under a burka, so should we all start wearing burka so we aren't noticed? It isn't the nakedness of the breast, it's the breast. Having it covered makes for only a bare fewer comments, looks, leers, etc.

 

[Summerwind]

It seems that the only thing going wrong in this thread is my lack of clear explanation on some of the comments and points I've made.

Don't like it when I take the time to explain it - oh well.

Perhaps I should go back to using bullet points since narrated opinions is too hard for some people to follow.

I followed, but when you started out, you were not referring to someone's health. You were suggesting as a way to not be sexualized.

 

[Gathomas88]

Yes, but you'd notice them pretty much unless they were under a burka, so should we all start wearing burka so we aren't noticed? It isn't the nakedness of the breast, it's the breast. Having it covered makes for only a bare fewer comments, looks, leers, etc.

Did I ever say that they shouldn't be noticed?

 

[Summerwind]

Did I ever say that they shouldn't be noticed?

So you'd be fine with public toplessness for women, and you'd behave appropriately? Or at least no worse than you do now around clad women?

 

[Gathomas88]

So you'd be fine with public toplessness for women, and you'd behave appropriately? Or at least no worse than you do now around clad women?

I don't think it's necessary, and I think it's a little unrealistic to expect restraint from everyone.

Don't get me wrong. I wouldn't take it as license to actually do anything inappropriate, but I'd be lying if I said that I wouldn't find it to be more than a little bit distracting in comparison to fully clothed women.

 

[Summerwind]

My brother posted the following on his facebook page and I thought I'd bring it up for discussion because I think he makes a very good point.

I have to say, it's entirely unfair to have posted the woman with a face and the man, head cut off. I'd recommend to your brother to re-ask the question with more similar pictures and see if anything changes.

 

[Summerwind]

I don't think it's necessary, and I think it's a little unrealistic to expect restraint from everyone.

Don't get me wrong. I wouldn't take it as license to actually do anything inappropriate, but I'd be lying if I said that I wouldn't find it to be distracting.

It's distracting anyway, as I've already mentioned, I'm pretty sure is true. As you mentioned, I think, you'd get used to it. And in the end, your distraction isn't a woman's concern to have to deal with. Why should I or any woman have to be responsible for your inability to focus. Isn't personal responsibility one of those things you're often espousing?

Edited to add: And just to be clear, we're talking about public nudity similar to men's rights, not in an office or anywhere a half naked man isn't allowed.

 

[Gathomas88]

All you have to do is look at some of those isolated tribes of people where the women are topless pretty much as a rule, and it seems like the men aren't even phased by their breasts, so you do have a good point here.

Frankly, that's kind of the whole issue. Isn't it?

Pretty much every culture we know of which commonly embraces public nudity is isolated, primitive, and rather small in terms of overall numbers. Basically everyone in the tribe knows one another personally from infancy onwards.

There really wouldn't be any potentially dangerous "strangers" to worry about under those circumstances.

Concealing clothing might very well be necessary in a larger society for exactly that reason. You're coming into contact with strange and potentially dangerous people that you don't know on a daily basis. There's really no telling when or where one of them might get the "wrong idea" about something.

 

[ChrisL]

Frankly, that's kind of the whole issue. Isn't it?

Pretty much every culture we know of which commonly embraces public nudity is isolated, primitive, and rather small in terms of overall numbers. Basically everyone in the tribe knows one another personally from infancy onwards.

There really wouldn't be any potentially dangerous "strangers" to worry about.

More concealing clothing might be necessary in a larger society for exactly that reason. You're coming into contact with strange and potentially dangerous people that you don't know on a daily basis. There's really no telling when or where one of them might get the "wrong idea" about something.

Well no, that wasn't MY point. My point was that once you get used to it, it's no big deal. Relax! It's not like all the women are going to start walking about topless anyways. :2razz: You wish!

 

[Summerwind]

Frankly, that's kind of the whole issue. Isn't it?

Pretty much every culture we know of which commonly embraces public nudity is isolated, primitive, and rather small in terms of overall numbers. Basically everyone in the tribe knows one another personally from infancy onwards.

There really wouldn't be any potentially dangerous "strangers" to worry about under those circumstances.

Concealing clothing might very well be necessary in a larger society for exactly that reason. You're coming into contact with strange and potentially dangerous people that you don't know on a daily basis. There's really no telling when or where one of them might get the "wrong idea" about something.

I can live with topless, armed, and in a stand your ground state, yeah, let's do that. I bet men would learn to be very careful about stranger danger implications or lookin' like he might have a "wrong idea" real f'ing fast.

 

[Gathomas88]

Well no, that wasn't MY point. My point was that once you get used to it, it's no big deal. Relax! It's not like all the women are going to start walking about topless anyways. :2razz: You wish!

I was simply saying that it was something of an interesting question from a biological and sociological perspective.

Supposedly, human beings exist in a social bubble called a "monkey sphere," which includes all of the people we know personally, and empathize with most strongly. The human brain is only really equipped to handle a few dozen people in the group of "close friends" and personal acquaintances the "monkey sphere" represents, which is basically exactly the size that a small isolated tribe would be.

Once you start moving to large societies, the brain basically becomes overwhelmed and simply can't keep track of all the new faces any more. As such, we empathize with people we do not know personally a lot less than people within our "monkey sphere."

This could potentially make exposing one's self a lot more dangerous than it would be in a smaller and more intimate environment. That could be a big part of the reason why people prefer not to do so in more advanced societies. They simply don't feel as secure, nor should they.

 

[ChrisL]

I was simply saying that it was something of an interesting question from a biological and sociological perspective.

Supposedly, human beings exist in a social state of being called a "monkey sphere," which includes all of the people we know personally, and empathize with most strongly. The human brain is only really equipped to handle a few dozen people in the group of "close friends" and personal acquaintances the "monkey sphere" represents, which is basically exactly the size that a small isolated tribe would be.

Once you start moving to large societies, the brain basically becomes overwhelmed and simply can't keep track of all the new faces any more. As such, we empathize with people we do not know personally a lot less than people within our "monkey sphere."

This could potentially make exposing one's self a lot more dangerous than it would be in a smaller and more intimate environment. That could be a big part of the reason why people prefer not to do so in more advanced societies.

:lamo The monkey sphere? Errr . . . okay. You may be correct, but I don't know what that has to do with breasts. I've heard in other countries, they aren't as big a deal as they are made out to be here in America and that American men seem to have an "obsession" (so to speak) with boobies. Seems kind of like a Captain Obvious statement IMO. :lol:

 

[Gathomas88]

:lamo The monkey sphere? Errr . . . okay. You may be correct, but I don't know what that has to do with breasts. I've heard in other countries, they aren't as big a deal as they are made out to be here in America and that American men seem to have an "obsession" (so to speak) with boobies. Seems kind of like a Captain Obvious statement IMO. :lol:

It's a legitimate evolutionary theory. Seriously. :lol:

Social Networks, The Monkey Sphere, and Moore’s Law of Human Relationships

In any case, there aren't any advanced societies I'm aware of where people casually run around naked, or even topless, in public. If they expose themselves at all, it is in a very limited fashion, like on a beach.

That frankly makes a lot of sense when you think about it. It's simply more of a risk than most people are willing to take. :shrug:

We might make a bit more of a deal out of breasts than is strictly necessary here in the West. However, I sincerely doubt that this is something only cultural in basis. It likely has at least some deeper roots as well.

 

[ChrisL]

It's a legitimate evolutionary theory. Seriously. :lol:

Social Networks, The Monkey Sphere, and Moore’s Law of Human Relationships

In any case, there aren't any advanced societies I'm aware of where people casually run around naked, or even topless, in public. If they expose themselves at all, it is in a very limited fashion, like on a beach.

That frankly makes a lot of sense when you think about it. It's simply more of a risk than most people are willing to take. :shrug:

We might make a bit more of a deal out of breasts than is strictly necessary here in the West. However, I sincerely doubt that this is something only cultural in basis. It likely has deeper roots as well.

Okay, enough about monkey spheres! :2razz: I don't really know because I'm not a guy. I'm just guessing, by seeing those shows with native people on them who don't seem to be phased at all by the women's breasts that they just get used to that kind of thing after seeing it every single day in a nonsexual manner. Maybe I'm wrong.

Anyway, heading to bed now! Have a good one Gathomas! :2wave: