They hate us for our Freedoms

[ReverendHellh0und]

"The American economy was afflicted by a downturn and loss of investor confidence in the market following the events of Sept. 11," he said.

"The modern economy has been destroyed by the strikes of the mujahedeen (in Iraq and Afghanistan) and usury," he said, using the Arabic term for holy warriors.

Under Islamic Sharia law, usury, like drinking alcohol, is among the grand sins.

Zawahri then called on the American people to "embrace Islam to live a life free of greed, exploitation and forbidden wealth."

My Way News - Al-Qaida No. 2 to US: Overcome meltdown with Islam




Anyone still doubt they hate us for our freedoms still?

 

[Tucker Case]

They also hate that we have twice the chocolaty goodness while we prevent tooth decay.

 

[Doc Howl]

They hate that we put the bomp In the bomp bah bomp bah bomp.

THANKS A LOT, CHUCK BERRY! :beat

 

[Kernel Sanders]

My Way News - Al-Qaida No. 2 to US: Overcome meltdown with Islam




Anyone still doubt they hate us for our freedoms still?

Are pro-lifers are against abortion because they "hate our freedoms"? The dude thinks god is against usary, thinks it is immoral, and thinks it harms the world, just like the pro-lifers. He thus thinks it should be illegal, just like the pro-lifers. If you disagree I'm sure you can find a way to say so without sounding like a parody of an ignorant redneck

 

[1069]

Are pro-lifers are against abortion because they "hate our freedoms"?

Yes. What's your point?

 

[ReverendHellh0und]

Are pro-lifers are against abortion because they "hate our freedoms"? The dude thinks god is against usary, thinks it is immoral, and thinks it harms the world, just like the pro-lifers. He thus thinks it should be illegal, just like the pro-lifers. If you disagree I'm sure you can find a way to say so without sounding like a parody of an ignorant redneck

Wow go find Bin Laden's "letter to America" then get back to me about who is ignorant my friend! :2wave:

 

[sazerac]

Zawahri then called on the American people to "embrace Islam to live a life free of greed, exploitation and forbidden wealth."

Ruh-ro, isn't that what they say before an attack?

 

[obvious Child]

Wow go find Bin Laden's "letter to America" then get back to me about who is ignorant my friend! :2wave:

You mean the one where he primarily justifies his actions on the US desecrating the holy land of Islam?

Full text: bin Laden's 'letter to America' | World news | Observer.co.uk

The only real mentions of freedoms are moral freedoms that Bin Laden considers "immoral." The vast majority of it is "you attacked us and keep attacking us."

www.fas.org/irp/world/para/ubl-fbis.pdf

Freedoms you say?

And the logic fails as terrorists have largely avoid other places more morally bankrupt then we are who allow legal drug use and open prostitution.

Based on the facts in Bin Laden's letter and applying the criteria you set, you appear to be the ignorant one.

 

[ReverendHellh0und]

You mean the one where he primarily justifies his actions on the US desecrating the holy land of Islam?

Full text: bin Laden's 'letter to America' | World news | Observer.co.uk

The only real mentions of freedoms are moral freedoms that Bin Laden considers "immoral." The vast majority of it is "you attacked us and keep attacking us."

www.fas.org/irp/world/para/ubl-fbis.pdf

Freedoms you say?

And the logic fails as terrorists have largely avoid other places more morally bankrupt then we are who allow legal drug use and open prostitution.

What must we do according to that letter for Al Qaeda to stop attacking us?

 

[obvious Child]

What must we do according to that letter for Al Qaeda to stop attacking us?

The primary in the first letter was to get the hell out of Saudi Arabia and stop supporting Israel.

Explain to me if they hate us for our freedoms why Italy, Iceland, Norway, Finland and other liberal Western states with legal activities we consider to be immoral aren't on his hit list. Their freedoms are well in expanse of ours.

On top of that, the logic fails even further as we have gotten terrorist organizations to switch sides. If they hated us so much for our "freedoms" why have they embraced our side to fight against their former allies?

 

[ReverendHellh0und]

The primary in the first letter was to get the hell out of Saudi Arabia and stop supporting Israel.

Explain to me if they hate us for our freedoms why Italy, Iceland, Norway, Finland and other liberal Western states with legal activities we consider to be immoral aren't on his hit list. Their freedoms are well in expanse of ours.

On top of that, the logic fails even further as we have gotten terrorist organizations to switch sides. If they hated us so much for our "freedoms" why have they embraced our side to fight against their former allies?

you avoid the question.


What do we have to do according to that letter for them to stop attacking us?

 

[obvious Child]

you avoid the question.

You're changing the subject away from freedoms. And that is a known fallacy.

Back to the original subject you fallacy user, explain to me why places with greater freedoms aren't hated. If they hate us for our freedoms, why are places with even more expansive freedoms not targeted? One Italian in the Mumbai attacks was let go because it was an Italian. Your argument doesn't make sense.

 

[ReverendHellh0und]

You're changing the subject away from freedoms. And that is a known fallacy.

Back to the original subject you fallacy user, explain to me why places with greater freedoms aren't hated. If they hate us for our freedoms, why are places with even more expansive freedoms not targeted? One Italian in the Mumbai attacks was let go because it was an Italian. Your argument doesn't make sense.

nope the subject is not changed from freedoms.


they hate us for our freedoms.


are you saying they do not?

 

[Kernel Sanders]

What must we do according to that letter for Al Qaeda to stop attacking us?

Basically, be Islamic and adhere to bin Laden's view of morality. Much of it is vague enough that I doubt bin Laden would consider his standards met if we immediately became Iran.

We will never and can never change to a point where the leaders of Al Qaeda no longer take issue with us. What we can do it take steps to dissolve their support and prevent terrorism as being seen as a valid way to resist perceived injustice.

 

[obvious Child]

nope the subject is not changed from freedoms.

Incorrect. If that was true, you wouldn't be deliberately avoiding every single post I made about the inherent problems in your argument about freedoms.

they hate us for our freedoms.

Only if you want to believe that. Of course a belief doesn't equate to fact. And given how you are deliberately ignoring the majority of my posts, it would seem you don't care about the facts on the ground. You're just soapboxing.

are you saying they do not?

Some? Likely? Some? Not likely. And it isn't just about freedoms. It is likely more about specific freedoms in the context of our relationship to them.

 

[ReverendHellh0und]

Basically, be Islamic and adhere to bin Laden's view of morality. Much of it is vague enough that I doubt bin Laden would consider his standards met if we immediately became Iran.

We will never and can never change to a point where the leaders of Al Qaeda no longer take issue with us. What we can do it take steps to dissolve their support and prevent terrorism as being seen as a valid way to resist perceived injustice.

So in other words they do indeed hate us for our freedoms. and I quote:


"
(2) The second thing we call you to, is to stop your oppression, lies, immorality and debauchery that has spread among you.

(a) We call you to be a people of manners, principles, honour, and purity; to reject the immoral acts of fornication, homosexuality, intoxicants, gambling's, and trading with interest. [/quote]


Do they hate us because we are more accepting of beer, broads, booze, interest, and gambling. not to mention more accepting of homosexuals?

 

[ReverendHellh0und]

Incorrect. If that was true, you wouldn't be deliberately avoiding every single post I made about the inherent problems in your argument about freedoms.



Only if you want to believe that. Of course a belief doesn't equate to fact. And given how you are deliberately ignoring the majority of my posts, it would seem you don't care about the facts on the ground. You're just soapboxing.



Some? Likely? Some? Not likely. And it isn't just about freedoms. It is likely more about specific freedoms in the context of our relationship to them.

My last post addresses most of this. But lets be clear. I never said it was "just about" anything. You made that false assumption.


And this ain't a soapbox, its a discussion forum. :2wave:

 

[obvious Child]

So in other words they do indeed hate us for our freedoms. and I quote:

"
(2) The second thing we call you to, is to stop your oppression, lies, immorality and debauchery that has spread among you.

(a) We call you to be a people of manners, principles, honour, and purity; to reject the immoral acts of fornication, homosexuality, intoxicants, gambling's, and trading with interest.

The thing is that virtually every western country does this. Even Turkey to some extent. Syria as well. And you ignore how the majority of his letter was about how they attacked them and how we keep attacking them. It's kind of a joke to say they hate us because of our freedoms when their letters about why they hate us are 85% composed of "you attacked us," "10% your immorality" and "5% Allah says we'll prevail."

Do they hate us because we are more accepting of beer, broads, booze, interest, and gambling. not to mention more accepting of homosexuals?

Explain why Finland, Norway, Iceland, Estonia and others aren't in the hit list or hate list. Furthermore, explain why they are attacking states that don't have those.

 

[obvious Child]

My last post addresses most of this. But lets be clear. I never said it was "just about" anything. You made that false assumption.

If you actually believed the hate us for our freedoms, address the highlighted flaws.

If you don't, you're just preaching with no intent to defend your claims.

 

[Kernel Sanders]

So in other words they do indeed hate us for our freedoms. and I quote:

I would classify that as they hate our morality, not our freedoms. By your standards, do pro-lifers "hate our freedoms"?

 

[ReverendHellh0und]

The thing is that virtually every western country does this. Even Turkey to some extent. Syria as well. And you ignore how the majority of his letter was about how they attacked them and how we keep attacking them. It's kind of a joke to say they hate us because of our freedoms when their letters about why they hate us are 85% composed of "you attacked us," "10% your immorality" and "5% Allah says we'll prevail."

They wrote the letter to us.

And how can you quantify 85%, 10%, and 5% please show support for this.

If you wanted to be more accurate, reading the letter its 95% cause we are friends with jews, 5% everything else.

Explain why Finland, Norway, Iceland, Estonia and others aren't in the hit list or hate list. Furthermore, explain why they are attacking states that don't have those.

You hit the big targets first. simple tactics.

This is a fallacy argument here.

 

[ReverendHellh0und]

I would classify that as they hate our morality, not our freedoms. By your standards, do pro-lifers "hate our freedoms"?

HAte your "freedom" to kill another life? Sure why not. Some of us don't believe that is a right.


but lets stick to the topic. From the letter:


"(i) You are the nation who, rather than ruling by the Shariah of Allah in its Constitution and Laws, choose to invent your own laws as you will and desire. You separate religion from your policies, contradicting the pure nature which affirms Absolute Authority to the Lord and your Creator. You flee from the embarrassing question posed to you: How is it possible for Allah the Almighty to create His creation, grant them power over all the creatures and land, grant them all the amenities of life, and then deny them that which they are most in need of: knowledge of the laws which govern their lives? "



seems that may be classified that hating our freedoms. no?

 

[Kernel Sanders]

HAte your "freedom" to kill another life? Sure why not. Some of us don't believe that is a right.

Okay, I guess we're just working from different standards

but lets stick to the topic. From the letter:


"(i) You are the nation who, rather than ruling by the Shariah of Allah in its Constitution and Laws, choose to invent your own laws as you will and desire. You separate religion from your policies, contradicting the pure nature which affirms Absolute Authority to the Lord and your Creator. You flee from the embarrassing question posed to you: How is it possible for Allah the Almighty to create His creation, grant them power over all the creatures and land, grant them all the amenities of life, and then deny them that which they are most in need of: knowledge of the laws which govern their lives? "



seems that may be classified that hating our freedoms. no?

By the standard you set forth, yes. Again, I would interpret that differently, as hating our secularism.

 

[obvious Child]

If you wanted to be more accurate, reading the letter its 95% cause we are friends with jews, 5% everything else.

It was an analogy. But thanks for agreeing that it wasn't heavy on our actual freedoms.

You hit the big targets first. simple tactics.

This is a fallacy argument here.

Incorrect. Explain to me why terrorists let people of certain countries go despite their same morals and freedoms. How hard is to put a bullet in the head of that Italian opposed to a Brit?

 

[ReverendHellh0und]

Okay, I guess we're just working from different standards




By the standard you set forth, yes. Again, I would interpret that differently, as hating our secularism.

:lol: have you figgered out yet I am loaded for bear? :mrgreen:



"(iii) You are a nation that permits the production, trading and usage of intoxicants. You also permit drugs, and only forbid the trade of them, even though your nation is the largest consumer of them.

(iv) You are a nation that permits acts of immorality, and you consider them to be pillars of personal freedom. You have continued to sink down this abyss from level to level until incest has spread amongst you, in the face of which neither your sense of honour nor your laws object. "


that's pretty specific about our freedoms. no?