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There is no God.

Leo

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I do not say this lightly, and I apologise if it offends those with deep religious beliefs. But consider this.

I have two cousins, both males; one is 19 and the other will be 15 in December. My younger cousin is a really nice kid. Helpful to his mum, always with a big smile, and never gets into the sort of sh*t most fifteen year olds do. He is no mensa, but quite good at school, and a great cricketer.

Well, several months ago, he started feeling off and bringing up his food. Off to the doctors, then off to have several scans, and they found a sizeable cancer on his oesophagus. Today he is haemorrhaging massively, and on morphine, and his mother is sitting by his hospital bed waiting for her youngest son to die (which will probably be in the next 24-48 hours).

I saw him a few days ago and he was barely strong enough to speak, but I tried talking to him about sport, and stuff he was interested in.

So yeah, I know there's loads more tragic stuff happening around the world, but a really nice kid like him having to go through all that pain and then die is surely no sign of a Divine Being who cares for us. I am not ever setting foot in a church again (well, maybe for his funeral service) and I am finished with the idea of God.

The religious amongst you can all have a go at me - I don't care, and I am not walking on eggshells any more.
 
Damn, dude. That's some heavy ****. My sympathy to you and your family. Some people seem to find the idea of God comforting, but I find it pretty horrible for the kinds of reasons you listed. If God exists, he's completely amoral at best, and a sadistic psychopath at worst.
 
God or not, beliefs or not, I hope you, his mother, and anyone who cared about him finds whatever peace they are looking for.
 
I do not say this lightly, and I apologise if it offends those with deep religious beliefs. But consider this.

I have two cousins, both males; one is 19 and the other will be 15 in December. My younger cousin is a really nice kid. Helpful to his mum, always with a big smile, and never gets into the sort of sh*t most fifteen year olds do. He is no mensa, but quite good at school, and a great cricketer.

Well, several months ago, he started feeling off and bringing up his food. Off to the doctors, then off to have several scans, and they found a sizeable cancer on his oesophagus. Today he is haemorrhaging massively, and on morphine, and his mother is sitting by his hospital bed waiting for her youngest son to die (which will probably be in the next 24-48 hours).

I saw him a few days ago and he was barely strong enough to speak, but I tried talking to him about sport, and stuff he was interested in.

So yeah, I know there's loads more tragic stuff happening around the world, but a really nice kid like him having to go through all that pain and then die is surely no sign of a Divine Being who cares for us. I am not ever setting foot in a church again (well, maybe for his funeral service) and I am finished with the idea of God.

The religious amongst you can all have a go at me - I don't care, and I am not walking on eggshells any more.


I'm sorry that your family is going through that Leo. It is sad, sometimes we lose the best far too young.

At 14, I lost a buddy who was shot dead by another young man. At 24, my best-friend-like-a-brother was killed in a robbery at his business... he was a harmless fellow, very bright and a great guy, his widowed mother's only son. More recently I lost both my parents, and though they were old it was still very hard.

Every one of these losses tested my faith. Each loss caused me to ask why God allowed this to happen, each time I struggled to accept that the reason might be beyond my comprehension .... but I still believe. I could go into a long theological dissertation on the reason why death entered the world, the reasons we suffer disease and illness and loss, the ephemeral nature of life and how death is merely a transition from our preliminary existence to our eternal state... but I suspect you don't want to hear all that just now.


So, I will just say this; If there is no God, no afterlife, no soul or spiritual realm, if it is all just matter and biology and the cold vacuum between the stars, if we are just animals and when we die we're just dead meat.... then everything is utterly meaningless, ultimately. If that is true, then one day that boy's life and suffering will mean nothing, because soon every mind that knew him will cease to exist and all memory of him will perish. One day all humanity will be gone and we will know nothing, remember nothing, and be remembered by no one, and every act of kindness or hate, every act of love and every moment of joy or suffering, will all mean exactly Zero.

Who will you rail at without God? A cold, uncaring and unconsciously malicious Universe that creates disease simply because it can, without the slightest concern for anyone's life or suffering? The uncaring and mechanistic activity of biology, that gave us enough intelligence to fear and resent Death but not enough to keep us from dying? Without God, ultimately it all means nothing. That is something I do not accept.

I am sorry for your suffering and grief, and I wish you and your family the best in this difficult time.
 
Hello Leo - We meet again (I hope - there seems to be a problem about my posts appearing). The question is whether you believed in a god before this happened, I think. The evil in the world is a fact. Whether it has an author we can blame is another question altogether. I doubt it myself, which leaves us with the much more interesting question of how we can improve the world we're stuck in.
 
Who will you rail at without God? A cold, uncaring and unconsciously malicious Universe that creates disease simply because it can

Better than a god that will torture people for eternity because they failed to accept some 1st century Jewish bloke as the saviour of mankind on the word of an old book.
 
...then everything is utterly meaningless, ultimately.

Meaningless?

1. I'm alive. That is meaningful to me.
2. The people important to me are alive. That is meaningful to me.
3. I'm living life developing the relationships I have with myself, my friends, my family, my community, etc. That is meaningful to me.
4. I'm trying to accomplish things that will hopefully leave the world a better place for others. That is meaningful to me.
5. I'm making mistakes and growing as a person every day. That is meaningful to me.

You want an objective meaning from life. There may be one, there might not be one, but the consequence of there being no God is not a meaningless existence.

I really, truly hope there is a God, but I am not going to rely on a God to find meaning in my life.
 
Im sorry for the struggles your family faces and hope you will be able to find strength in each other. Bad things happen to good people. Good things happen to bad people.

Perhaps its a subject for another time...but when it comes to our thinking on 'God' we truly are children. We want to be left alone and to be all grown up...until we have problems and then we want God to fix everything and make it all better. I understand the concept...but imagine...if there is a God...what that world would look like...the omnipotent pinkie of God correcting every error, righting every wrong, eliminating choice and free will for our own good. Most of us cant stand living under a parents roof and rules for more than 18 years...imagine a lifetime of Gods intervention. Right...wrong. Good...bad. Love...pain. Intense joy...intense sorrow. Sadly...thats the gig. If the Biblical God is real we might take lesson from a Fathers sorrow when He lived His own rule and suffered hurt, anger, rage and pain when His child suffered and died at the hands of men. Rather than disavow, it might be of comfort for some to know this being, if He be real, can truly empathize.

How many here would lock away their own children in safe padded rooms, keep them from all others to ensure no harm and to protect them from the world for "their own good"? How long can you envision such an existence?
 
Better than a god that will torture people for eternity because they failed to accept some 1st century Jewish bloke as the saviour of mankind on the word of an old book.


That's one way of looking at it, Spud.

Another way is this, and it applies whether one takes Genesis literally or metaphorically:

Humanity was created perfect, holy and sinless, and was made to neither age nor sicken nor die. We walked with God in person and talked with him each day, like a friend. He asked us to do only one thing: remain innocent and not seek to understand the nature of good and evil.


We broke that one commandment. In so doing, we lost our innocence and knew good and evil, and became capable of evil. In so doing, sin and evil entered the world; we were no longer perfect and blameless, and so we could no longer interact directly with a holy and perfect God, neither in this life nor in the next.

Being loving, God decided to make a way to bridge this gap. He gave an aspect of himself human form and suffered through a human life, showing us a better way to live than in selfishness and evil. Even at the bitter and painful end, he refused to use his power to save himself from torture and death. Dying as a human, his divine nature took on all the evil in the world and drowned it in holiness, like a drop of red dye in the ocean... arising as the Divine, he created a path by which we could be purified and be with God in the afterlife. He asked only one thing of us to let us use this bridge, and that was to believe in him and try to follow the path he created.

If you're in the Himlayan mountains and your Shirpa guide says "follow this path to safety"... and you refuse and insist on following your own path... whose fault is it that you fall off a cliff? There was a path to safety, he pointed it out to you... if you choose not to walk it, you're a person with free will so it is your choice... but don't blame the Shirpa.
 
That's one way of looking at it, Spud.

Another way is this, and it applies whether one takes Genesis literally or metaphorically:

Humanity was created perfect, holy and sinless, and was made to neither age nor sicken nor die. We walked with God in person and talked with him each day, like a friend. He asked us to do only one thing: remain innocent and not seek to understand the nature of good and evil.


We broke that one commandment. In so doing, we lost our innocence and knew good and evil, and became capable of evil. In so doing, sin and evil entered the world; we were no longer perfect and blameless, and so we could no longer interact directly with a holy and perfect God, neither in this life nor in the next.

Being loving, God decided to make a way to bridge this gap. He gave an aspect of himself human form and suffered through a human life, showing us a better way to live than in selfishness and evil. Even at the bitter and painful end, he refused to use his power to save himself from torture and death. Dying as a human, his divine nature took on all the evil in the world and drowned it in holiness, like a drop of red dye in the ocean... arising as the Divine, he created a path by which we could be purified and be with God in the afterlife. He asked only one thing of us to let us use this bridge, and that was to believe in him and try to follow the path he created.

If you're in the Himlayan mountains and your Shirpa guide says "follow this path to safety"... and you refuse and insist on following your own path... whose fault is it that you fall off a cliff? There was a path to safety, he pointed it out to you... if you choose not to walk it, you're a person with free will so it is your choice... but don't blame the Shirpa.

A few things I find wrong with this, firstly, if you create something perfect, and it fails, it's certainly not the creations fault, it's only acting within the parameters of its creation, secondly is the implication that we're all responsible for the ills of our forbears, which is a notion I find abhorrent. And thirdly is with your analogy there, imagine instead of a Shirpa saying "go this way" you have some random guy saying "I read this book where this Shirpa from a few thousands years ago said you should go this way" and instead of one guy, you have hundreds all pointing at paths going off in every different directions, and each one telling you all the other paths lead to certain death. And that when you read the book the old Shirpa wrote, one of the Shirpa's mates who decided to write some letters specifically mentions all the random blokes should gesticulate in the same direction. Faced with that, you can choose a path, and hope that you chose the right one, and that the Shirpa's letter writing mate doesn't hold any sway with the mountain paths, or you can choose your own path, safe in the knowledge the odds ain't in your favour anyway of coming out alive.
 
A few things I find wrong with this, firstly, if you create something perfect, and it fails, it's certainly not the creations fault, it's only acting within the parameters of its creation,

That would be true if we were puppets or unintelligent automatons. We were given minds and free will, and the ability to choose. We are not simply marionettes who act according to our nature without the capacity to choose.


secondly is the implication that we're all responsible for the ills of our forbears, which is a notion I find abhorrent.

It's not so much that, as that we reap the consequences of our forebears' choosing to bring evil into the human experience. That egg was cracked and we can't un-crack it.


And thirdly is with your analogy there, imagine instead of a Shirpa saying "go this way" you have some random guy saying "I read this book where this Shirpa from a few thousands years ago said you should go this way" and instead of one guy, you have hundreds all pointing at paths going off in every different directions, and each one telling you all the other paths lead to certain death. And that when you read the book the old Shirpa wrote, one of the Shirpa's mates who decided to write some letters specifically mentions all the random blokes should gesticulate in the same direction. Faced with that, you can choose a path, and hope that you chose the right one, and that the Shirpa's letter writing mate doesn't hold any sway with the mountain paths, or you can choose your own path, safe in the knowledge the odds ain't in your favour anyway of coming out alive.


Congratulations, you gave me a headache. ;)

I guess you chooses your Shirpa and you takes your chances... I've chosen mine, for my own reasons. I can't (at least not over the Internet) persuade you to follow my Shirpa rather than some other, or to make some other choice that seems good to you.

That is to say, my life experiences have lead me to believe that there is a God, and that He is the God of the Bible. I wish I knew what to say to persuade you, but I don't. You're an intelligent person with a range of knowlege and you make your own choices, as I've made mine. If you see no reason at all to believe in the God of the Bible, I doubt anything I could say will persuade you. I could pray that God will grant you some reason to find faith in him, if you wish... though I suspect you'd probably be indifferent to such an offer. :shrug:
 
I do not say this lightly, and I apologise if it offends those with deep religious beliefs. But consider this.

I have two cousins, both males; one is 19 and the other will be 15 in December. My younger cousin is a really nice kid. Helpful to his mum, always with a big smile, and never gets into the sort of sh*t most fifteen year olds do. He is no mensa, but quite good at school, and a great cricketer.

Well, several months ago, he started feeling off and bringing up his food. Off to the doctors, then off to have several scans, and they found a sizeable cancer on his oesophagus. Today he is haemorrhaging massively, and on morphine, and his mother is sitting by his hospital bed waiting for her youngest son to die (which will probably be in the next 24-48 hours).

I saw him a few days ago and he was barely strong enough to speak, but I tried talking to him about sport, and stuff he was interested in.

So yeah, I know there's loads more tragic stuff happening around the world, but a really nice kid like him having to go through all that pain and then die is surely no sign of a Divine Being who cares for us. I am not ever setting foot in a church again (well, maybe for his funeral service) and I am finished with the idea of God.

The religious amongst you can all have a go at me - I don't care, and I am not walking on eggshells any more.

Maybe there is a God, but he is malevolent, petty, sadistic.
 
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Damn, dude. That's some heavy ****. My sympathy to you and your family. Some people seem to find the idea of God comforting, but I find it pretty horrible for the kinds of reasons you listed. If God exists, he's completely amoral at best, and a sadistic psychopath at worst.

god isnt psychopath but the humans are so psychopath that god created.if everything belonging to life were so nice ,would all people believe in god??

ı am not sure,,, because it is not relevant to the fact of god.this world is not a paradise and everybody struggles with the problems of their lives.and the wit of belief must be to believe in god even if there are so many difficulties that we face .in Quran,Allah advises us to be patient and endure for our problems..
 
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See, this is a great example of the difference between the Jewish concept of God, and the Christian concept of God.

Christians constantly ask God for things: new boat, new tv, new toys, get rid of their pimples, etc etc. And when they don't get these things, they think they must have done something wrong, God hates them, or even worse..there must be no God. Pretty selfish huh?

Meanwhile, Jews do NOT ask God for anything. Just go through a Jewish prayer book (Siddur) and you'll see that I am correct. Jews don't ask God for anything, they THANK God for all that has been provided. Jews don't ask God for toys, books, a new baby-brother, etc etc. We thank him for what we have. And if we have little...we thank him for that. And if we are been persecuted..we thank him for the test of our strength, struggle, and challenge to our resilience.

Now, as a Deist, I do not believe in a higher power that has an intimate relationship with mankind. I do not believe that God speaks to men, set a moral code, punishes sin, etc etc. That said, if I was to believe in a God that had a relationship with mankind, it would be the Jewish version, for that God now has a more hands-off policy with mankind..thereby making the failures and trial of being mortal easier to swallow.
 
Off to the doctors, then off to have several scans, and they found a sizeable cancer on his oesophagus. Today he is haemorrhaging massively, and on morphine, and his mother is sitting by his hospital bed waiting for her youngest son to die (which will probably be in the next 24-48 hours).
Leo. Mitzta’er... my sympathy and thoughts are with you and your family.
 
I do not say this lightly, and I apologise if it offends those with deep religious beliefs. But consider this.

I have two cousins, both males; one is 19 and the other will be 15 in December. My younger cousin is a really nice kid. Helpful to his mum, always with a big smile, and never gets into the sort of sh*t most fifteen year olds do. He is no mensa, but quite good at school, and a great cricketer.

Well, several months ago, he started feeling off and bringing up his food. Off to the doctors, then off to have several scans, and they found a sizeable cancer on his oesophagus. Today he is haemorrhaging massively, and on morphine, and his mother is sitting by his hospital bed waiting for her youngest son to die (which will probably be in the next 24-48 hours).

I saw him a few days ago and he was barely strong enough to speak, but I tried talking to him about sport, and stuff he was interested in.

So yeah, I know there's loads more tragic stuff happening around the world, but a really nice kid like him having to go through all that pain and then die is surely no sign of a Divine Being who cares for us. I am not ever setting foot in a church again (well, maybe for his funeral service) and I am finished with the idea of God.

The religious amongst you can all have a go at me - I don't care, and I am not walking on eggshells any more.
I truly am sorry for the pain that your family is now enduring. I lost my best friend to Mesothelioma a few years back. He was the greatest sort of person, kind, caring, intelligent, extremely faithful, and, sadly, he left behind a wonderful wife and a beautiful 3-year-old daughter. As is human nature, my first instinct was to question why. Why him of all people? Such a good man, father, husband, teacher, and so faithful. At one point, I found myself questioning God and my faith. Through a great deal of prayer and soul-searching, I truly believe that God opened my eyes to the idea that his plans for us sometimes go beyond our ability to comprehend. I started to really "tune in" to what was happening to my bud's family and our other mutual friends and their families.

My pal, Rodney, you see, was a High School Science teacher and throughout his relatively short life, had influenced hundreds, maybe thousands of young people. I began to notice that a subtle and sometimes profound change (for the better) began to take place in many of these lives as a direct result of the life that Rodney lived and as a direct result of the fact it was taken from him at such a young age and during such an important point in his life/career. One of our mutual friends who hadn't spoken to his own father in over ten years, called me, broke down as we talked about our pal and his passing, and two days later he had an emotional reunion with his own father - they've had a closer and stronger relationship than ever. Another of our mutual friends was an alcoholic who'd ruined his own marriage and had left behind two very young, innocent children in the wake whom he'd failed to care for or even to communicate with. He broke down at Rodney's funeral and we spoke later. It seems it took the death of friend to open his eyes to the precious nature of human life and to the damgae that he'd already done to his and was doing to the lives of his innocent children. He stopped drinking - cold turkey - and as far as I know hasn't had a drink since. For the past two years he's been involved in church and is working diligently to repair his relationship with his ex-wife and his children.

The closer I looked, the more and more I began to see a pattern emerging among many of my pal's family, friends, colleagues, and former students. The point is, I now know that it wasn't lack of a God, or actions of a cruel God that caused my best friend to die. All of these positive impacts could just be coincedence, but I choose to believe that they are not. I believe that God allows things to happen for a reason and that if we truly become intuned to his will through prayer, fellowship, and through reading his Word, then his plan is often revealed to us, at least in part.

In closing, I will add that, as I sat next to my best friend's hospital bed, holding his hand a week before he died, I was crying uncontrollably and I heard him chuckling. I looked over at him and he squeezed my hand and told me this, "Stop feeling sorry for yourself." I was stunned for a moment until he went on to say, "there's no reason to grieve for me, I've accepted this. I'm right with God and I know what lays ahead. You're just feeling sorry for yourself because you won't have me around anymore. Stop being so selfish." He laughed again, and it hit me like a ton of bricks that he was absolutely right. I hugged him and later I looked back and I believe that this was exactly what I needed to hear at the time. Those words would have profound meaning for me later. I still grieved, quetioned, and even blamed in the days and weeks following his death, but those words came back to provide me strength later on. Was this God giving Rodney the right words to say at that moment? Who knows? I choose to belive that it was and that works for me.

Three days before my friend passed I received an e-mail from him. Just a little story and I will share it, nothing special, but coming from a man three days away from his death, it is a pretty strong statement. My experience may not help your grieving, but just know, and I am a testament to this; we may lose faith in God and turn away, but I believe that he's always there, ready to take us back.

A Woman and a Fork
There was a young woman who had been diagnosed with a terminal illness and
had been given three months to live. So as she was getting her things "in
order," she contacted her pastor and had him come to her house to discuss
certain aspects of her final wishes She told him which songs she wanted
sung at the service, what scriptures she would like read, and what outfit she
wanted to be buried in.
Everything was in order and the pastor was preparing to leave when the
young woman suddenly remembered something very important to her.
"There's one more thing," she said excitedly.
"What's that?" came the pastor's reply.
"This is very important," the young woman continued.
"I want to be buried with a fork in my right hand."
The pastor stood looking at the young woman, not knowing quite what to say.
"That surprises you, doesn't it?" the young woman asked.
"Well, to be honest, I'm puzzled by the request," said the pastor.
The young woman explained. "My grandmother once told me this story, and
from there on out, I have always done so. I have also, always tried to pass
along its message to those I love and those who are in need of encouragement.
"In all my years of attending church socials and potluck dinners, I always
remember that when the dishes of the main course were being cleared,
someone would inevitably lean over and say, 'Keep your fork.' It was my
favorite part because I knew that something better was coming...like velvety
chocolate cake or deep-dish apple pie. Something wonderful, and with
substance!"
So, I just want people to see me there in that casket with a fork in my
hand and I want them to wonder "What's with the fork?" Then I want you to tell
them: "Keep your fork ..the best is yet to come."
The pastor's eyes welled up with tears of joy as he hugged the young woman
good-bye. He knew this would be one of the last times he would see her
before her death. But he also knew that the young woman had a better grasp
of heaven than he did. She had a better grasp of what heaven would be like
than many people twice her age, with twice as much experience and
knowledge.
 
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See, this is a great example of the difference between the Jewish concept of God, and the Christian concept of God.
In addition, the concept of Hell and eternal punishment does not exist in Judaic doctrine.
 
In addition, the concept of Hell and eternal punishment does not exist in Judaic doctrine.


The concept is not universal in Christiandom either, though it is a minority view.
 
Leo - I've said it elsewhere (names beginning T or I) but thinking about you and wishing you and your family well.
 
The concept is not universal in Christiandom either, though it is a minority view.

ı think there are so many words of god about hell in the bible.if you dont believe jesus, you will got to hell.ı had read bible years ago and realized that christians had to believe jesus and to be good people.it is enough to go to heaven.and also ı know jews dont believe hell.but that word 'hell' stems from a valley called ' gehinnom' in israel.it means valley of hinnom.maybe this is the reason of that they try to earn lots of money in the world.so there isnt another world for them
 
ı think there are so many words of god about hell in the bible.if you dont believe jesus, you will got to hell.ı had read bible years ago and realized that christians had to believe jesus and to be good people.it is enough to go to heaven.and also ı know jews dont believe hell.but that word 'hell' stems from a valley called ' gehinnom' in israel.it means valley of hinnom.maybe this is the reason of that they try to earn lots of money in the world.so there isnt another world for them

Jews believe in the resurrection of the dead when the Messiah comes.
 
but they believe neither jesus nor muhammed :))

when will he come?

the Messiah will come when he is damn good & ready, and when the people of the Earth deserve him.

many Hasidic Jews constantly urge the people of the world to do acts of kindness and love, in order to bring the Messiah.
 
the Messiah will come when he is damn good & ready, and when the people of the Earth deserve him.

many Hasidic Jews constantly urge the people of the world to do acts of kindness and love, in order to bring the Messiah.

as far as ı know hassidics are so conservative and even radical, ı am wrong?

and also ı think evangelists get on well with jews and they believe that the messiah will come ,too
 
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