There is no controversy with a "stand your ground" law...

[Lursa]

Well, if I understood the circumstances regarding the last stand your ground incident in Florida, that's pretty much exactly what happened. The guy/shooter was known to offensively approach people for illegal parking, or whatever, start some **** and then fall back on ol' Roscoe if he gets any push back. This time, he got push back. So, BANG!

That guy had no authority to go around harassing parkers. If he didnt like it, he could say something and then move on. He could then report it to the business or the cops.

 

[Lursa]

Being a prick to her verbally, however, is no excuse for the boyfriend taking it up a notch to assault/battery. Once a perceived felony is in progress that changes things legally quite a bit. IMHO, it would be very hard for the state to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the guy thrown (shoved?) to the parking lot, by someone that he had not even spoken with, felt no threat of serious injury.

This is a prime example of why just being the bigger guy does not mean that one will prevail in a fight that they start.

Just IMO but it's very easy to imagine that his family (kids were in the car) was being threatened by this guy. It was just a shove away from the car.

But yes, it was a way too big shove, a dangerous one.

 

[Lursa]

Duty to Retreat

Over years and years of reading gun forum posts...I can tell you that those words trigger self-righteousness and Constitutional BS out of proportion to all reality. The absolute affront to ego and "rights" and "personal liberty" is ridiculous.

As if the taking of a human life isnt enough to deter someone if they dont have to kill (because response to that is usually, 'society is better off without them.'), the legal consequences alone should deter them. Legally justified or not, if you go to court, even if found guilty, the legal fees are huge (the state, not civil) and you can lose your house. And not all states have laws protecting people in civil cases either.

Apparently, many (not all) believe that "a real man would never retreat."

 

[VanceMack]

Why is that a shame?

SYG advocates tend to act like a person isn't allowed to defend himself in a blue state, but that simply is not the truth. I don't know these guys personally but it sounds like a reasonable overview here:




Basics

Under Massachusetts law, if you are attacked or reasonably believe that you are about to be attacked, placing your physical safety in immediate danger, you have a right to defend yourself. However, you are obligated to take reasonable steps, if available, to avoid physical combat before resorting to force. Moreover, you are not allowed to use more force than is reasonably necessary to defend yourself. You may use deadly force – force intended or likely to result in the death or great bodily harm of an assailant – only where you reasonably believe your assailant poses a threat to cause you great bodily harm or death.

Duty to Retreat

Unless you are within your home or a place where you are temporarily residing, you may use physical force in self-defense only where you are unable to escape without exposing yourself to further danger, summons immediate help, or hold the assailant at bay until help arrives. Under the Massachusetts Castle Rule, you are not required to retreat from your home or to attempt to avoid combat with an unlawful intruder. You are allowed to use deadly force on an intruder if you believe he may kill or badly injure you or another person within the home or dwelling.

Resorting to Deadly Force

https://www.relentlessdefense.com/what-should-i-do/right-to-self-defense/




A jury ultimately decides these cases, so if someone punches you, you're not going to jail for punching them back. However, you're probably going to jail if you lay them out flat, straddle them, and hit them until bystanders pull you off. Reasonableness is the key.

Juries will also consider body size, etc. If a big man punches a woman and she shoots him dead before he can swing again, she's probably in the clear.....unless he punched her, raised his hands, and backed up 10 steps. You just can't go overboard. If this shooting happened here, that guy would go to jail.


I really don't understand the need for SYG laws. They tend to protect aggressors much more than defenders.

Its a shame because if the SYG laws are impacted in Florida it will most likely have a disproportionate negative impact on those that need them the most.

 

[WCH]

The problem is that situations like this are never very clear-cut. Even highly trained and experienced policemen have a tough time with making the right judgment call sometimes, as numerous news stories show. Now leave this to the average gun-totin' Joe Public with a chip on his shoulder, and.... hey, what could go wrong?

In Russia nearly everyone has a dash cam for similar reasons. Although mostly for bad cops.

Most instance where one needs to use deadly force don't involve a lot of time to think, whether about the chip on your shoulder or the ramifications of everyone's actions.

 

[AGENT J]

Every single person on the planet has a natural right to protect themselves and their families by whatever means necessary. If that means shooting someone, so be it. When you lay your hands on another person, you have the right to protect yourself, regardless of how the confrontation began.

I mention this because my local news just showed the incident and stated a "controversial stand your ground rule".

The law, rights and history all prove your thread title factually wrong. it is controversial :shrug:

with that said i support some stand your ground laws... others are way to vague

 

[AGENT J]

In Florida, I can walk around with a chip on my shoulder and if I see something I don't like, I can go get in the person's grill about it and if they punch me in the face, I can kill 'em.

What's there not to love about that?

IF the case in reference stays how it is that is not really an inaccurate statment, it will be what happened... i wouldnt recommend it to anybody but what you said is descriptive of things that have happened.

 

[late]

Here in Maine, if you kill someone when you didn't have to, they throw your dumb homicidal ass in jail.

 

[AGENT J]

I'm talking about natural law, not bureaucratic law. I, as a human being, am allowed to defend myself by any means necessary.

Factually wrong lol

allowed by who?
Natural law is made up and subjective
defend from what?

 

[itsforthekids]

Factually wrong lol

allowed by who?
Natural law is made up and subjective
defend from what?

Actually, natural law is 100%, well, natural. We all have the right to protect ourselves by any means necessary. Whether it be though learning self defense or carrying a weapon. No man has the right to take that away from us. Now, bureaucratic laws govern how one uses these weapons when not in a self defense scenario.

 

[AGENT J]

1.)Actually, natural law is 100%, well, natural.
2.) We all have the right to protect ourselves by any means necessary. Whether it be though learning self defense or carrying a weapon. No man has the right to take that away from us. Now, bureaucratic laws govern how one uses these weapons when not in a self defense scenario.

1.) translation: made up and subjective
2.) protect ourselves from what? according to what facts?

nothing you posted changes the facts i stated nod does it answer my questions LOL

 

[Lursa]

Actually, natural law is 100%, well, natural. We all have the right to protect ourselves by any means necessary. Whether it be though learning self defense or carrying a weapon. No man has the right to take that away from us. Now, bureaucratic laws govern how one uses these weapons when not in a self defense scenario.

There is no such thing as 'natural' law. All laws and all rights are man-made concepts.

The fact that our FF's used such a belief for our govt's foundations doesnt mean the concepts themselves are invalid.

 

[pinqy]

That is our issue.

Stand Your Ground inherently places the case burden in a condition that is entirely subjective, where even the witnesses may or may not be enough to influence the outcome. The exact same event but with different people on both ends of the gun 10 times may not give us 10 equal courtroom outcomes.

And how is that different from duty to retreat where the question is whether or not the victim could safely retreat? Self/defense is subjective however you look at.

That being said, regardless of stand your ground, you lose a self-defense claim if your attacker breaks off and you continue, and when you escalate the level of force.

Pulling a lethal weapon on an unarmed person (unless there’s a huge disparity in size/strength) and shooting someone who is attempting to retreat are clearly not self defense

 

[Captain America]

That guy had no authority to go around harassing parkers. If he didnt like it, he could say something and then move on. He could then report it to the business or the cops.

I think that is what a normal person might do. But this guy apparently is known to look for trouble.

 

[itsforthekids]

There is no such thing as 'natural' law. All laws and all rights are man-made concepts.

The fact that our FF's used such a belief for our govt's foundations doesnt mean the concepts themselves are invalid.

There certainly are natural laws.

 

[AGENT J]

There certainly are natural laws.

Please list them then and and prove they are objective laws, thanks!

 

[independentusa]

You're ****ing wrong.

Stupid can get you killed.

I am an older gent. I do not have the piss and vinegar I used to have when I was tussling around in the military.

I survived a C-4/C-5 vertebrae fracture(s) and, after a couple years, the grace of God and some good therapy, I walk upright today.

A simple head-lock could cost me my life. A hard hook to the jaw could put me back in a circle-electric bed paralyzed from the neck down. You goddamn right that I am going to fear for my life if someone wants to get froggy in a parking lot. I don't think I would hesitate to put a bullet in their brain to protect my life.

Like I said, stupid can get you killed. You might want to ponder that a while.

That being said, the incident we are talking about, it is clear to me that the shooter was looking for trouble and is taking advantage of the law.

I wonder why you are always talking about putting a bullet in the head. I found an interesting shooting by a local policeman. He was attempting to arrest a local man who had a knife. The man came forward as if to stab the policeman and the policeman calmly shot the guy in the leg putting him on the ground and making him drop the weapon. I know police are told like the military to shoot center mass, but I thought this policeman was really cool, calm and collected.

 

[Lursa]

There certainly are natural laws.

Prove it.

 

[Lovebug]

I wonder why you are always talking about putting a bullet in the head. I found an interesting shooting by a local policeman. He was attempting to arrest a local man who had a knife. The man came forward as if to stab the policeman and the policeman calmly shot the guy in the leg putting him on the ground and making him drop the weapon. I know police are told like the military to shoot center mass, but I thought this policeman was really cool, calm and collected.

Most know their stuff and can aim properly. Others can not. I saw a video that greatly disturbed me, and wish that I had paid more attention to where and when. A cop follows someone's car in his cruiser, shoots through the windshield, shoots out of the driver window, bullets seemingly flying around randomly, toward the sidewalk... Very disturbing.

 

[itsforthekids]

Please list them then and and prove they are objective laws, thanks!

As I've stated many times...your natural right to protect yourself.

 

[AGENT J]

As I've stated many times...your natural right to protect yourself.

and has i have stated
prove its objective
protect yourself from what

opcorn2:

 

[OrphanSlug]

And how is that different from duty to retreat where the question is whether or not the victim could safely retreat? Self/defense is subjective however you look at.

That being said, regardless of stand your ground, you lose a self-defense claim if your attacker breaks off and you continue, and when you escalate the level of force.

Pulling a lethal weapon on an unarmed person (unless there’s a huge disparity in size/strength) and shooting someone who is attempting to retreat are clearly not self defense

I am not all that much in opposition to what you are saying, and your point helps me on how subjective all this is.

 

[Captain America]

I wonder why you are always talking about putting a bullet in the head. I found an interesting shooting by a local policeman. He was attempting to arrest a local man who had a knife. The man came forward as if to stab the policeman and the policeman calmly shot the guy in the leg putting him on the ground and making him drop the weapon. I know police are told like the military to shoot center mass, but I thought this policeman was really cool, calm and collected.

Head shots are how I was trained. **** center-mass.

Brain and brain-stem. Drop like a rock. Painless and quick.

Next question.

 

[Maccabee]

Head shots are how I was trained. **** center-mass.

Brain and brain-stem. Drop like a rock. Painless and quick.

Next question.

Where were you trained and what job did you had?

 

[Captain America]

Where were you trained and what job did you had?

I have been training/practicing for 35 years in one way or another. You want a list of the places I have trained? My memory is pretty good but that's gonna take some time.

But it wasn't until here lately that I have been afforded anything resembling what one might consider "formal" training. But to be clear, I am "training" more for interest and entertainment. In my profession, I will never need to utilize the current techniques I am learning. But it's a barrel fun so what the hell, right?!?

My last and current training is at a local community college that has a wing dedicated to police science. I have several instructor's. There is an indoor range and all my AR ammo is free. Gotta love that.

But I only use a side-arm at my job. I am blessed to train with what I consider some of the best. Compared to these guys, I am a novice. But it's fun to hang out with them and they show me lot's of patience. (More than they show each other sometimes.)