oldreliable67 said:Inyuasha,
What does this sound like to you:
"On that basis, and in compliance with God's order, we issue the following fatwa to all Muslims
The ruling to kill the Americans and their allies--civilians and military--is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it,..."
Source is bin Laden's 1998 fatwa.
Notice that the fatwa is issued to "all Muslims". Notice that the instructions are to kill Americans whether civilian or militrary and to do so wherever possible?
If your still not convinced, just google "salafist" or "salafist jihad" and you'll plenty of evidence.
Inuyasha said:Funny you should mention the "Salafistas". Seven were arrested in Spain today and I think 10 last week. They need to be watched (which it appears they are).
In reference to the "Fatwas", first it is my understanding that according to Muslim law bin-Laden or Al-Zarkawe and the like cannot issue a legal fatwa and so their fatwa in any religious terms, are meaningless. That doesn't mean that the content doesn't regester with some more militant Arabs and even North Africans. However it is more like an edict issued by something like "The Aryan Brotherhood" or "Los Guerilleros de Cristo Rey", The last being a group of Catholic militants but witout section of the Church.
It's not weather one is convinced or not. The evidence is there that there are fundamentalist groups in the Arab world that mean us harm. My belief is that if we keep a low profile these people, in typical Arab fashon, will begin to turn on each other as Lawrence notes in his works, thereby saving us quite a bit of trouble, effort, money and loss of human life. The only thing that worries me is the fundamenlists access to dirty nuclear devices.
Rather than a traditional military action, which is proving to be pretty ineffective against these small cells, a better tactic would be covert operations, assassination and infiltration of the bin-Laden type "false profits". But this means changing the whole concept of the West's approach to the situation. Is that possible? You'd have to ask Rumsfeld and his opposite number among the Western nations. Also important in this type of strategy is to let Iran know that we are not going after them. They must be completely convinced of this, actually not matter what strategy is used. To have Iran as an enemy or even in the equation is not a good idea at all. The whole thing must be directed towards Arabs not Kurds or Turks or Persians.
Are you contending that Osama has the binding authority to issue "fatwahs" on behalf of all muslems?
a better tactic would be covert operations, assassination and infiltration of the bin-Laden type "false profits".
Lantzolot said:Sorry, i did this on a school computer so i had to post twice because i couldnt edit at home.
...
HOW DOES THIS ALL CONSTITUTE A RELIGION OF PEACE?
Don't get me wrong though, im not for a war with islamists. But don't be fooled. They are at war with us.
iriemon said:To paint the entire Muslem world as "at war" with us because of the actions of a few and stuff that happened centuries ago is the very definition of rascism.
Iriemon said:And because I don't divine you made a mistake and meant the M.E. I'm embarrasing myslef and not keeping up. LOL! OK.
Iriemon said:You are correct, and I agree it doesn't seem to be a model democracy but did appear to have had some degree of represenative elections. But I admit I'm not an expert on Jordon.
Iriemon said:No, we can act in self defense when we are attacked.
Iriemon said:And your whole theory is based on that it was. And the WMDs are hiding under a sand pile somewhere. Sure. Good luck convincing the average guy in the ME of that.
Iriemon said:I do. I felt we were rushing into Iraq, I wondered why the inspectors had found nothing, but I admit the reconstituted nukes and hundreds of tons of chemical weapons and terrorist support and all the rest of the BS that was being fed us had me worried. Shame on me for believing them. Shame on you for continuing to do so.
Iriemon said:Sure. And when are they going to start welcoming us as liberators again?
Sorry, some of us only buy so much BS before we start to question it.
Inuyasha said:Funny you should mention the "Salafistas". Seven were arrested in Spain today and I think 10 last week. They need to be watched (which it appears they are).
In reference to the "Fatwas", first it is my understanding that according to Muslim law bin-Laden or Al-Zarkawe and the like cannot issue a legal fatwa and so their fatwa in any religious terms, are meaningless. That doesn't mean that the content doesn't regester with some more militant Arabs and even North Africans. However it is more like an edict issued by something like "The Aryan Brotherhood" or "Los Guerilleros de Cristo Rey", The last being a group of Catholic militants but witout section of the Church.
It's not weather one is convinced or not. The evidence is there that there are fundamentalist groups in the Arab world that mean us harm. My belief is that if we keep a low profile these people, in typical Arab fashon, will begin to turn on each other as Lawrence notes in his works, thereby saving us quite a bit of trouble, effort, money and loss of human life. The only thing that worries me is the fundamenlists access to dirty nuclear devices.
Rather than a traditional military action, which is proving to be pretty ineffective against these small cells, a better tactic would be covert operations, assassination and infiltration of the bin-Laden type "false profits". But this means changing the whole concept of the West's approach to the situation. Is that possible? You'd have to ask Rumsfeld and his opposite number among the Western nations. Also important in this type of strategy is to let Iran know that we are not going after them. They must be completely convinced of this, actually not matter what strategy is used. To have Iran as an enemy or even in the equation is not a good idea at all. The whole thing must be directed towards Arabs not Kurds or Turks or Persians.
Billo_Really said:Have you noticed not all Americans buy into George Bushes fatwa's (or equivalent thereof) either?
Iriemon said:Those are excellent thoughts.
Nothing unifies more effectively that an exterior threat. Case in point: 9/11. The more militant our activities, the more united our opposition will be.
Iriemon said:Do you reckon it would be hard to go thru the annals of history and find evidence of the Christians attacking and massacring muslems? Start with the crusaders' liberation of the holy land.
I don't doubt that there are people in the ME who dream of world conquest and cleansing the world of people with different religious beliefs. You don't have to go very far back in history to find Christian nations do the same thing.
To paint the entire Muslem world as "at war" with us because of the actions of a few and stuff that happened centuries ago is the very definition of rascism.
GySgt said:No it's not. It's stereotyping. Racism would be defined if he said that all Muslims are stupid because they are Mulsim.
"Political correctness" is of no use here. Regardles of how many Muslims in the Middle East that could care less about issues, there are far more that see us as the enemy for no reason at all. From this there are millions of extremists. These would be the people that cheer everytime an American civilian gets his head chopped off or an airplane fall to the ground. From this group there are terrorists.
Inuyasha said:Well, by today's posting I see that you know everything there is to know on the subject and have the ME all figured out while the rest of us "idiots" know nothing at all. Perhaps you can give us a solution to the problem. I am sure the Marine Corps would be happy and you would soon be elevated to a position of a general officer.
Inuyasha said:Well, by today's posting I see that you know everything there is to know on the subject and have the ME all figured out while the rest of us "idiots" know nothing at all.
oldreliable67 said:Your sarcasm suggests that you consider yourself well-informed. You may indeed be well informed. Your posts certainly suggest that to be the case. But so far, I find no contributor here as well-informed on this particular topic as GySgt. He has clearly done more than just his homework on this topic, he has gone the extra mile to educate himself extensively.
There will be those who will disagree with his conclusions, and that is certainly ok - its a big part of what makes DP a fun place. But do so with an awareness that Gunny's reading list on this topic is most likely a helluva lot longer (and given what he does for a living, most likely much better informed) than yours.
Inuyasha, IMO, your sarcasm is misplaced. There are much more worthy targets for such. Just my impression - YMMV.
oldreliable67 said:Your sarcasm suggests that you consider yourself well-informed. You may indeed be well informed. Your posts certainly suggest that to be the case. But so far, I find no contributor here as well-informed on this particular topic as GySgt. He has clearly done more than just his homework on this topic, he has gone the extra mile to educate himself extensively.
There will be those who will disagree with his conclusions, and that is certainly ok - its a big part of what makes DP a fun place. But do so with an awareness that Gunny's reading list on this topic is most likely a helluva lot longer (and given what he does for a living, most likely much better informed) than yours.
Inuyasha, IMO, your sarcasm is misplaced. There are much more worthy targets for such. Just my impression - YMMV.
Inuyasha said:I am sure he is well informed and I do not disagree with that, I take issue when one uses his knowledge o position to aggrandize and belittle others. I have noticed this tendency in the past month in his so i am bringing it up. Perhaps my sarcasm is somewhat misplaced. Time will tell.
GySgt said:This is where the confusion is. I do not have problems with opinions. Where the frustrations lie is when people have opinions based on complete ignorance. If an individual is going to express his or her opinion on abortion...they should at least know what it is. Likewise for the Middle East. Refusing to see what is there and what is obvious is not an opinion. It is designed blindness. Designed blindness is what has allowed our government to look the other way as the Arab elite used us and persecuted this civilization into the desperate state that it is in today - as long as the oil flowed. We have wasted decades insisting that we are friends with governments that need us as an enemy to explain away the ruin of their societies that they have provided for themselves. However, this is where our guilt ends. We are an imagined enemy.
teacher said:The ruling rich Arabs use us a scapegoats through religion to deflect the blame of the oppressed poor away from where the blame truly lies. And they been doing it long time while we allow it.
I said it in less words. I win.
Iriemon said:Do you reckon it would be hard to go thru the annals of history and find evidence of the Christians attacking and massacring muslems? Start with the crusaders' liberation of the holy land.
I don't doubt that there are people in the ME who dream of world conquest and cleansing the world of people with different religious beliefs. You don't have to go very far back in history to find Christian nations do the same thing.
To paint the entire Muslem world as "at war" with us because of the actions of a few and stuff that happened centuries ago is the very definition of rascism.
oldreliable67 said:Well, no. It is wrong to paint the entire Muslim world at war with us (at least as of this moment), whether for the actions of a few or a lot. What was not mentioned by Lantzolot was the establishment of the Muslim Caliphate, which was accomplished mainly by sword. You should look it up - you might be surprised at the territory that it covered. And this was before the Crusades, IIRC, though I many not.
How does that relate to today? Read bin Laden's fatwa again. He is advocating nothing more, nothing less than the re-establishment of the Muslim Caliphate.
A incomplete research effort perhaps, but racist? No, definitely not.
tr1414 said:While most Muslims may not be terrorist, most support terrorist. Don't forget the dancing in the streets after 9/11 & anytime Americans die, Muslims get very happy & hand out sweets, but you won't see that in the liberal media.
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