The wage problem in a nutshell

[Craig234]

Didn't we have anti-trust / anti-monopoly laws?

Republicans have gutted their enforcement. How long ago was AT&T?

 

[post]

Republicans have gutted their enforcement. How long ago was AT&T?

The RWE who "contributed" to this thread indicate the effects of their heavy indoctrination. The contempt evident here in their posts is
a result of the political strategy of division predictably practiced by all who are asset heavy but cannot attract popular support without resorting to disinfo and other manipulation because the facts are that they serve very narrow interests but are able to convince some that they are admirable, not at all parasitic.

Consider all of the resources Walmart and Amazon have accumulated and have expended, legally and illegally to "discourage" organizing by labor and what might have been different if all the money both paid to lawyers, propagandists, strategists, surveillance, lobbyists, etc., had not been expended and organizing of labor in their workplaces had simply taken the course the legislation of 1935 intended.

National Labor Relations Act of 1935 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Instead, workers were paid less than if they had organized into bargaining units and turnover at both corporations, as well as working conditions have left much to be desired!

Labor organizing, as any organizing, is simply about sharing and use of relevant information and building leverage in a coordinated group.
Some things to think about until my next post, an example of domestic help organizing in a single market area during WWI and
the benefits and leverage of shared information, an advantage employers have but laborers like these seldom enjoyed,

Example 2,
I encountered E.N.A.P. via a customer of a business I owned back when Home Depot and Lowes early growth influenced
smaller competitors to the need to change rapidly by organizing a buying group to negotiate with suppliers cooperatively
to obtain purchase prices and terms similar to those negotiated by their two rapidly growing competitors.
"Everybody Needs A Profit"

Strength in Numbers - Northeastern Retail Lumber Association​

https://www.nrla.org › NRLA › News › Strength_in_Nu...
LBM Advantage is realized as a high-powered cooperative with the completed merger of ENAP and PAL.

Enap Inc | New Windsor, NY - Macrae's Blue Book​

https://www.macraesbluebook.com › search › company
Products offered by Enap Inc · BUILDING & STRUCTURAL WOOD MEMBERS: Arches, Laminated Lumber · BUILDING & STRUCTURAL WOOD MEMBERS: Engineered · BUILDING & ...


AT&T was mostly knitted back together after being divided into a single "long lines component," 8 "RBOCs," independent local regional telephone service providers and AT&T selling its equipment manufacturing division, Western Electric, and research division, Lucent Technologies. Surprisingly soon after, largely as a result of leadership of this executive, most of the 8 independent regional providers
were reacquired by one, Southwestern Bell, which then acquired control over long distance network and media corp., AT&T, and used
that name, since. For a time, "the new AT&T even included S.N.E.T., which along with tiny Woodbury Telephone, had remained independent
from the original AT&T, from the time of the world's first switchboard operating in New Haven in January, 1878.

First Commercial Telephone Exchange – Today in History: January 28 - Connecticut History | a CTHumanities Project

On January 28, 1878, the Boardman Building became the site of the world’s first commercial telephone exchange, the District Telephone Company of New Haven.

connecticuthistory.org

Edward Whitacre Jr. - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

"..In October 1988, Whitacre became president and chief operating officer of a regional bell operating company, Southwestern Bell Corporation. Two years later, Whitacre became chairman of the board and chief executive officer. In 1995, Southwestern Bell Corporation changed its name to SBC Communications. Whitacre led SBC through a series of mergers and acquisitions in building the largest provider of both local long distance telephone services and wireless service...
and AT&T Corp. (2005), from which the post-merger company took its name, as well as the 2006 acquisition of Bell South.

On June 23, 2006, he and the CEO of BellSouth were brought in under the Senate Antitrust Subcommittee following the AT&T-BellSouth merger. .."

 

[molten_dragon]

$15 an hour is not enough. $35 per hour would barely make it.

$15/hr is plenty in some places and $35/hr is barely adequate in others. That's why federal minimum wage is only part of the issue. It can't reasonably be set high enough to provide a living wage for the highest CoL areas without bankrupting businesses in places with much lower CoL. States and metro areas need to set their own higher minimum wages when appropriate.

 

[gdgyva]

For example, and assistant manager makes let's say $20 an hour. They are bringing in new employees at a lower position at the same $20 rate.

Well then the asst mgr needs to decide what to do......

First, a raise is in order, dontcha think?

And this is what I have been saying about what will happen as new people are raised up.....the one already employed will all have to get raises also

So the ones coming in at the inflated rates....they will still be the low people on the totem pole only it starts at higher numbers

Only prices of everything will increase....we are all seeing it.....inflation from wage....and it wont stop till all of these changes are over

SO really will those on the bottom rung actually be better off? Or just in a higher tax bracket?

 

[donhughesmusic]

Well then the asst mgr needs to decide what to do......

First, a raise is in order, dontcha think?

And this is what I have been saying about what will happen as new people are raised up.....the one already employed will all have to get raises also

So the ones coming in at the inflated rates....they will still be the low people on the totem pole only it starts at higher numbers

Only prices of everything will increase....we are all seeing it.....inflation from wage....and it wont stop till all of these changes are over

SO really will those on the bottom rung actually be better off? Or just in a higher tax bracket?

I don't believe the inflation was causes by higher wages. I believe it was caused more by fear and spending habits more than anything. Just a belief though.

 

[bave]

Gotta love the weak argument about productivity and wages. Let's just ignore computerization and automation and pretend all the productivity is because the employees are somehow magically getting more done.

 

[gdgyva]

IMO stock buybacks should be illegal, or at least very restricted.

Company has cash.....

There are numerous things you can do with cash as a company

1. Invest in tools, machinery, buildings,
2. Invest in Research & Development
3. Buy other companies
4. Buy back your own stock when you feel the price is lower than it should be

Those are the choices for the board.....and unless there is additional market share to be gained, there is no sense in building additional buildings and equipment
Most companies already spend a set % on R&D annually, and raising that is not usually on the table
Buying companies is definitely a way to grow....look at all the M&A activity lately

Not sure what else you think these companies are supposed to do

 

[gdgyva]

I don't believe the inflation was causes by higher wages. I believe it was caused more by fear and spending habits more than anything. Just a belief though.

Go into any small business in your community

Talk to the owner

See what he/she is paying employees now versus 18 months ago

And then check the prices in the store

Been to a Subway lately? Or any sandwich shop? Been to you local hardware store? Not the home depot....the little guys

Those that are still open are paying $ 2-4hr higher now than they used to for the exact same labor.....

And all of that increase in going directly into their prices

Wife didnt want to cook the other night, so she sent me after subs

Base 6 inch subs used to be $ 5 in my area....now they are 7.99 12 in are now $ 10

And these are the base subs....one turkey and one tuna

Prices are jumping EVERYWHERE.....

 

[gdgyva]

Gotta love the weak argument about productivity and wages. Let's just ignore computerization and automation and pretend all the productivity is because the employees are somehow magically getting more done.

exactly....see post # 2

 

[vanceen]

I think that dovetails nicely with the OP, that the current system which sends all wealth created to the owners to choose how to distribute does not provide for a strong middle class and low inequality. What you just are positive things, but they won't solve it either. Some way to ensure wealth is more distributed is needed.

I think we both see the same problem but have different views of the solution.

As I see it, the labor transaction works very well so long as the "floor" is high enough. Too low a "floor", i.e. equilibrium wage levels too low to pay for a living, leaves people in absolute poverty, which will inevitably break society. Free market competition is a splendid way of allocating assets, but fails when the price of labor is so low that people can't live (every system breaks down when survival is in question).

I don't care about inequality so long as anybody willing to work can afford a decent life and there is a reasonable hope of doing better. We're starting to see that both these values are less assured than in the past. So, I see the solution(s) as government action to get the floor high enough and to raise the competitiveness of the labor force.

 

[Craig234]

I think we both see the same problem but have different views of the solution.

As I see it, the labor transaction works very well so long as the "floor" is high enough. Too low a "floor", i.e. equilibrium wage levels too low to pay for a living, leaves people in absolute poverty, which will inevitably break society. Free market competition is a splendid way of allocating assets, but fails when the price of labor is so low that people can't live (every system breaks down when survival is in question).

I don't care about inequality so long as anybody willing to work can afford a decent life and there is a reasonable hope of doing better. We're starting to see that both these values are less assured than in the past. So, I see the solution(s) as government action to get the floor high enough and to raise the competitiveness of the labor force.

One of the problems you don't seem to see is that the issue is not just poverty. If that's your issue, you would see workers make enough to not be in poverty while the owners make unlimited amount above that - their share could grow to 80%, 90%, 95%, 98%, 99%, 99.9% - their billions and trillions would see a form of tyranny where democracy has no chance.

It's 'emotionally' appealing to frame the issue as being about poverty but there's a lot more needed for economic justice to avoid a 'soft tyranny' where people are 'comfortable slaves'. Hell, that's China's model - their national slogan is "moderate prosperity" and they *claim* they eliminated poverty, and no one disagrees because they don't want to go to jail.

 

[bave]

Continue to ignore the fact that the US has the highest median household income of any major developed nation and the most progressive tax code in the world.

 

[The Mark]

Continue to ignore the fact that the US has the highest median household income of any major developed nation and the most progressive tax code in the world.

5th highest, as of 2021

Median Income by Country 2024

But close.

I suppose you could say none of the 4 that have higher are major developed nations, although I'm not sure how that is defined.

I'm not sure there's a comparison of all countries based on how progressive their tax code is...
However, here there is a comparison of the top 41 marginal tax rates in the world as of 2019, which places the US 32nd highest.

Taxing High Incomes: A Comparison of 41 Countries

Sweden has the highest top effective marginal tax rate in Europe at 76%, while Bulgaria has the lowest at 29%. Learn more about top tax rates in Europe.

taxfoundation.org

 

[bave]

5th highest, as of 2021

Median Income by Country 2024

But close.

I suppose you could say none of the 4 that have higher are major developed nations, although I'm not sure how that is defined.

I'm not sure there's a comparison of all countries based on how progressive their tax code is...
However, here there is a comparison of the top 41 marginal tax rates in the world as of 2019, which places the US 32nd highest.

Taxing High Incomes: A Comparison of 41 Countries

Sweden has the highest top effective marginal tax rate in Europe at 76%, while Bulgaria has the lowest at 29%. Learn more about top tax rates in Europe.

taxfoundation.org

No economist on the planet would define Luxembourg, UAE, Switzerland, or Norway as major economies. None of them have a population greater than some US counties. Two of those nations are also tax havens and the other two are natural resource goldmines.

There are tons of studies showing the progressivity of national tax codes, you just have to look and understand what the word means. So you need to start with understanding what "progressive" means, since you obviously don't.

 

[The Mark]

No economist on the planet would define Luxembourg, UAE, Switzerland, or Norway as major economies. None of them have a population greater than some US counties. Two of those nations are also tax havens and the other two are natural resource goldmines.

There are tons of studies showing the progressivity of national tax codes, you just have to look and understand what the word means. So you need to start with understanding what "progressive" means, since you obviously don't.

I quite literally searched for "countries listed by tax code progressivity" or some such, but didn't find anything. Perhaps I need to try a different search.

 

[vanceen]

One of the problems you don't seem to see is that the issue is not just poverty. If that's your issue, you would see workers make enough to not be in poverty while the owners make unlimited amount above that - their share could grow to 80%, 90%, 95%, 98%, 99%, 99.9% - their billions and trillions would see a form of tyranny where democracy has no chance.

It's 'emotionally' appealing to frame the issue as being about poverty but there's a lot more needed for economic justice to avoid a 'soft tyranny' where people are 'comfortable slaves'. Hell, that's China's model - their national slogan is "moderate prosperity" and they *claim* they eliminated poverty, and no one disagrees because they don't want to go to jail.

I'm not entirely clear on what you're saying, or what "emotionally appealing" has to do with it.

I have no problem at all with the owners of an enterprise making a lot more than the employees in it. I don't see any "injustice' in that. Nor do I think that someone making more money off an enterprise they own is going to cause "comfortable slavery", unless we define working for a wage as "slavery", which doesn't make much sense.

Labor gets bought and sold, and its price is set by a market. That's OK as far as it goes, but when the equilibrium price for labor is so low that we have a lot of working poor, something's wrong and intervention is needed.

 

[vanceen]

5th highest, as of 2021

Median Income by Country 2024

But close.

I suppose you could say none of the 4 that have higher are major developed nations, although I'm not sure how that is defined.

I'm not sure there's a comparison of all countries based on how progressive their tax code is...
However, here there is a comparison of the top 41 marginal tax rates in the world as of 2019, which places the US 32nd highest.

Taxing High Incomes: A Comparison of 41 Countries

Sweden has the highest top effective marginal tax rate in Europe at 76%, while Bulgaria has the lowest at 29%. Learn more about top tax rates in Europe.

taxfoundation.org

Trying to compare the progressivity of a tax system by comparing top marginal rates can be tricky. Very much depends on how many people are actually paying that top rate.

It's popular to point to the very high top marginal rates in the US before the Kennedy tax cuts and say "everything was fine then". But for one thing, not everything was fine all the time. And aside from that, it was only a tiny fraction of a percentage that were subject to the top rate.

I don't know if bave is correct about the US tax rate being the most progressive among developed nations. However, it is certainly highly progressive with respect to federal income tax. We do have regressive taxes for Social Security and Medicare, though, which I think ought to be rolled into income tax. (But that's another subject.)

 

[Craig234]

I'm not entirely clear on what you're saying, or what "emotionally appealing" has to do with it.

I have no problem at all with the owners of an enterprise making a lot more than the employees in it. I don't see any "injustice' in that. Nor do I think that someone making more money off an enterprise they own is going to cause "comfortable slavery", unless we define working for a wage as "slavery", which doesn't make much sense.

Labor gets bought and sold, and its price is set by a market. That's OK as far as it goes, but when the equilibrium price for labor is so low that we have a lot of working poor, something's wrong and intervention is needed.

No offense, but I think you are missing the issue so much that it doesn't seem possible to bridge. You're locked into the fallacy I mentioned, relating to the super wealthy like they're like you with nicer cars and houses, no problem, oblivious to the actual situation.

 

[bave]

I don't know if bave is correct about the US tax rate being the most progressive among developed nations. However, it is certainly highly progressive with respect to federal income tax. We do have regressive taxes for Social Security and Medicare, though, which I think ought to be rolled into income tax. (But that's another subject.)

Don't ask Bave, ask the WashPo

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2013/04/05/americas-taxes-are-the-most-progressive-in-the-world-its-government-is-among-the-least/

 

[vanceen]

No offense, but I think you are missing the issue so much that it doesn't seem possible to bridge. You're locked into the fallacy I mentioned, relating to the super wealthy like they're like you with nicer cars and houses, no problem, oblivious to the actual situation.

Perhaps you could explain "the issue", and what the "actual situation" is that I'm missing or oblivious to.

I don't have a problem with some people being very wealthy, although I think we do have a big problem with the political influence of money.

Your OP did not convince me that the existence of a supply and demand market for labor is a "fallacy" or that employers are arbitrarily setting wages without significant reference to competition. (If that's not the "fallacy" you're referring to, please tell me what is.)

All you've really said in this post is that I'm "missing the issue", "locked into a fallacy", and "oblivious to the actual situation". You're within you're rights to think so and say so, but it doesn't leave anything to talk about.

 

[The Mark]

Trying to compare the progressivity of a tax system by comparing top marginal rates can be tricky. Very much depends on how many people are actually paying that top rate.

It's popular to point to the very high top marginal rates in the US before the Kennedy tax cuts and say "everything was fine then". But for one thing, not everything was fine all the time. And aside from that, it was only a tiny fraction of a percentage that were subject to the top rate.

I don't know if bave is correct about the US tax rate being the most progressive among developed nations. However, it is certainly highly progressive with respect to federal income tax. We do have regressive taxes for Social Security and Medicare, though, which I think ought to be rolled into income tax. (But that's another subject.)

While I was trying to find something about progressive tax systems I noticed mention of our sales tax being regressive, since it takes a disproportionate percentage of lower incomes.

 

[bave]

While I was trying to find something about progressive tax systems I noticed mention of our sales tax being regressive, since it takes a disproportionate percentage of lower incomes.

Jesus, all sales taxes are regressive. So are VAT taxes. So are excise taxes.

The difference here is that the US doesn't have a national sales/VAT tax. Now, you can go down the rabbit hole of trying to tabulate the total state/local/federal secondary taxes of each individual (and good luck with that), but the point is that the national system in the US is the most progressive on the planet.

 

[Razoo]

Republicans have gutted their enforcement. How long ago was AT&T?

Two ways to accomplish de-regulation:
1. Reduce funding = reducing workforce thus too few to enforce
2. Eliminate the IRS

 

[Craig234]

Perhaps you could explain "the issue", and what the "actual situation" is that I'm missing or oblivious to.

You aren't listening, when I said it looks like a bridge too far. Imagine I want to explain to someone from North Korea or China who worships their leader why 'freedom' and 'democracy' are good. Imagine I want to explain to someone from Britain during their empire why empire was immoral. There are times people are too indoctrinated to a viewpoint where it seems not possible to reach across the gap to them.

I don't have a problem with some people being very wealthy, although I think we do have a big problem with the political influence of money.

You're trying to put the issue into the framework you have. Apparently the quote I often post doesn't make sense to you, a century ago, Louis Brandeis saying you can have great concentration of wealth, or democracy, but you can't have both. You appear to think 'of course you can' and not be in a position to learn otherwise. That's why I'm not beating my head against a wall on it.

 

[vanceen]

You won't elaborate your position because you're convinced that I just couldn't take it in.

OK.