The wage problem in a nutshell

[Craig234]

@vanceen: Your post 144 can't be quoted so see 146.

 

[soylentgreen]

First off, I never said labor was unnecessary. In almost every business venture large amounts of it are needed. What I said is that creating jobs is not the purpose of a business; increasing shareholder value is. If more value can be created by having fewer jobs than more, then that's exactly the strategy management must pursue.

Almost agree. Not almost every business venture.
https://www.hourly.io/post/number-of-small-business-in-the-us

. Of those 31.7 million businesses, 25.7 million—or 81 percent—have no employees (self-employed individuals known as “nonemployers”). The other 9 percent—or 6 million—are employer firms with paid employees. Of the small businesses that employ paid workers, an employee count of between 24 and 99 is the most common.

On the other hand while business has the right to set who and how many workers they want the labour they seek is a marketable commodity and workers have a right to demand a fair wage and working conditions.

And from reading your posts I can safely say that I have a far better understanding of basic economics than do you. That you think the market will leave workers "paid enough to barely survive on" is about as naive a statement as has been made in this thread. You don't seem to understand that labor is a market, too. For the same reason I cannot walk into a dealership and purchase a brand new Lexus for $1,000 is the same reason I can't hire a good accountant for $8.50 an hour: others place a higher value on those and are willing to pay more And because they are willing to pay more, so must I.

And to further my point above, your slavery reference is simply childish. Your labor gets what it earns, and, barring health issues, if you're not yet able to provide for yourself it's not the time to look to the government; it's a time to look in the mirror.

Unfortunately like the many on this thread you seem to assume that business has the upper hand and can make demands on what labour should be. But if you agree to the idea that labour is a commodity then you actually have to treat it as such rather than think business will set the price and that is that.

You probably do have a fair idea of economics. But that does not seem to be the issue here. The problem is more that you and others are treating labour as if it is something business has a right to control. That in itself is a belief that can easily lead to slavery.

Workers and the poor have as much right to demand they have rights as do the business owners and wealthy. But there is a definite bias towards business rights in this thread.

 

[NatMorton]

On the other hand while business has the right to set who and how many workers they want the labour they seek is a marketable commodity and workers have a right to demand a fair wage and working conditions.

Of course they do. And employers have a right to say "no" to those wage demands. What happens from there is up to the worker.

Unfortunately like the many on this thread you seem to assume that business has the upper hand and can make demands on what labour should be. But if you agree to the idea that labour is a commodity then you actually have to treat it as such rather than think business will set the price and that is that.

I would not use the term "upper hand," but yes, absolutely, business has the right to make demands of those whom are in their employ. Workers, similarly, have the right to say "No, I'm not doing that, and I'll go work someplace else."

You probably do have a fair idea of economics. But that does not seem to be the issue here. The problem is more that you and others are treating labour as if it is something business has a right to control. That in itself is a belief that can easily lead to slavery.

It more easily leads to hyperbole. Please, stop the slavery nonsense. That's not what's being discussed here.

Workers and the poor have as much right to demand they have rights as do the business owners and wealthy. But there is a definite bias towards business rights in this thread.

Yes, they have a right to demand. They do not have a right to have those demands met unconditionally.

 

[soylentgreen]

On the one hand, some take offense to minimizing slavery with the comparison; on the other hand, in SOME important ways, there's truth to it, though obviously actual slavery was worse than the economic tyranny that has some parallels. Economically, in ways it's not that different for some. Ask the people who collect food. But my topic isn't so much that, as why higher wages are not higher as well. The fundamental problem in the system.

If a person can convince others to give him lots of money then that is their good fortune. The real problem then is whether the person is capable of earning the money given or is just a con artist. Assuming we both agree this is a capitalist based economy then any seeking higher wages will achieve what they are worth. A value only they can set.

Or in other words, not my problem until their greed makes it mine.

 

[Razoo]

"most employees have ZERO to do with profitability"

absolute nonsense = it's the employees that generate profits as they are the face of most all business = as in customer service which include janitorial staff that present a clean appearance which most customers demand .............

 

[soylentgreen]

There's an irony in that the more the owners get power and use it to take all the wealth for themselves, it leaves a much smaller economy that not only leave people with a lot less but take the fuel out of the economy that enriches the rich. The dirty secret of plutocracy is that they get bigger slices of a smaller pie and they think that's a victory. They'd rather have less but a bigger share, than more with a smaller share.

More businesses close down or are sold to others because there was just not enough profit for the owner rather than the business was a failure. But the american system of starting a business is complicated and unnecessary on comparison.
https://www.newzealandnow.govt.nz/i...ealand/investment-options/starting-a-business

We are the easiest country in the world to do business in, according to the 2020 World Bank Doing Business study. They also rate us the easiest place in the world to start a business.
There are few restrictions on establishing, owning and operating a business in New Zealand. In fact, by using the Government's online portals, the process of reserving a name and incorporating your company can be completed in a matter of hours.

There is an irony in that a country some americans would consider as a leftist commie anti christ, does capitalism better than america does.

 

[Razoo]

so if a business cannot afford to pay $ 15 or as what was quoted earlier maybe as high as $ 35 an hour living wage, they are a failure

Are you ready to close down 65% of the businesses across America? Yes or No?

if workers do not make at least $35 per hour how can they participate in the economy at such a level that keeps economic growth humming right along? Drop your elite sensationalism and realize it requires responsible management to pay staff a real living wage not a government stated living wage. The nation must be short on smart management = smart management who realize the more the working class makes the more they will spend thus creating more jobs in the process.

 

[soylentgreen]

Of course they do. And employers have a right to say "no" to those wage demands. What happens from there is up to the worker.

And if the system of capitalism does work then an equitable agreement is possible. However there is the problem of it not being an even playing field because of the belief that is prevalent through this thread that business has the right to demand and set wages.

I would not use the term "upper hand," but yes, absolutely, business has the right to make demands of those whom are in their employ. Workers, similarly, have the right to say "No, I'm not doing that, and I'll go work someplace else."

Two edged sword. Swap the words business and worker and the sentence still works.

It more easily leads to hyperbole. Please, stop the slavery nonsense. That's not what's being discussed here.


Yes, they have a right to demand. They do not have a right to have those demands met unconditionally.

It is not hyperbole when some argue that only business have rights. A class of people without rights is called a slave class.

Labour is a marketable product. No one should have the right to have their demands unconditionally.

 

[NatMorton]

And if the system of capitalism does work then an equitable agreement is possible. However there is the problem of it not being an even playing field because of the belief that is prevalent through this thread that business has the right to demand and set wages.

You're not quite getting it. Business can demand whatever wage it wants. So can employees. In that respect they are on equal footing.

Two edged sword. Swap the words business and worker and the sentence still works.

Yes, see above; that is exactly my point.

It is not hyperbole when some argue that only business have rights. A class of people without rights is called a slave class.

It is complete hyperbole. Your implied assertion that workers don't have rights, with or without union membership, is manifestly false.

Labour is a marketable product. No one should have the right to have their demands unconditionally.

And no one is making that argument. You're tilting at windmills.

 

[soylentgreen]

You're not quite getting it. Business can demand whatever wage it wants. So can employees. In that respect they are on equal footing.

Yes, see above; that is exactly my point.

There are some on this thread who do not share your opinion It appears to be the view that only business should have rights.

It is complete hyperbole. Your implied assertion that workers don't have rights, with or without union membership, is manifestly false.
And no one is making that argument. You're tilting at windmills.

No, it is a case of I am arguing against people who think workers not only have no rights but in some cases are being greedy and lazy for wanting rights.

You make the mistake of thinking this is about an issue of economics when it is quite clear that the discussion is about the bigotry being dealt the working by some here.

 

[NatMorton]

There are some on this thread who do not share your opinion It appears to be the view that only business should have rights.

I think you're misreading what's here.

No, it is a case of I am arguing against people who think workers not only have no rights but in some cases are being greedy and lazy for wanting rights.

You make the mistake of thinking this is about an issue of economics when it is quite clear that the discussion is about the bigotry being dealt the working by some here.

No, it's about economics. That you're trying to make it about something else doesn't change that.

 

[soylentgreen]

I think you're misreading what's here.


No, it's about economics. That you're trying to make it about something else doesn't change that.

No, my reading is accurate. I have had to point out that some are trying to demonise workers to make their case.