The voter fraud myth. This is for all the trump supporters and their demand for more secure elections.

[CLAX1911]

Can you prove otherwise?

That isn't my burden. You claimed that Biden won fair and square I don't believe you.

 

[soap box]

Voter fraud is a euphemism for “Democrats voting and winning elections.” That’s why conservatives don’t care when you ask them for evidence of voter fraud - they’re using a different definition of voter fraud than you are.

Too true , plus facts don't matter as long as you are defending trump and team R.

 

[bongsaway]

That isn't my burden. You claimed that Biden won fair and square I don't believe you.

Well there's a shocker, lol.

 

[CLAX1911]

Well there's a shocker, lol.

I still doubt your claim. most people do including yourself.

That's why you're here Grand standing about it.

So if your problem is misinformation then you need to come back misinformation with information so far that hasn't happened.

 

[CLAX1911]

People keep saying that critical race theory isn't taught in public schools and I agree it can't be. If it was it would be the end of it because even kids would know how incorrect it is.

And that would be the end of critical race theory.

 

[soap box]

That isn't my burden. You claimed that Biden won fair and square I don't believe you.

You have it backwards. You're making the claim that a crime was committed and the burden is on you.
If someone accuses me of stealing their TV, I could bring evidence to defend myself, but if the prosecutor doesn't have evidence there's not much of a trial , if at all. Why did Rudy & the Krack lose 60+ court cases last year?
We are not obliged to prove that nothing went wrong. We didn't make the accusation. It's up to you to point to the evidence that something did go wrong.
I'm ready for the evidence. Go right ahead.

 

[soap box]

You don't have to prove fraud to believe fraud is bad.

Many of the measures taken in various states are to provide a greater degree of supervision of the process. The idea is to prevent fraud from occurring and to be able to trace it if it happens. Republicans were able to show that fraud likely occurred in various places, but could not isolate it down to specific ballots as was needed.

Consider a bank that knew that the count was short but could not isolate the teller responsible. In such a case there is nothing that you can take to trial.

If there is a discrepancy, as in your bank metaphor, they find the reason that the subtotals and totals don't match and resolve it before certifying the results. Election officials can tell what precinct and station a ballot comes from.
It's also extremely indicative that you used the word 'likely' . To me , the word 'likely' says it all.

 

[CLAX1911]

You have it backwards. You're making the claim that a crime was committed and the burden is on you.

I made no such claim.

 

[ashurbanipal]

those of us that want voter ID are saying we want it to PREVENT FRAUD

and you all come back and say, but fraud isnt an issue

really? how would you really know....especially since most states dont have standardized rules where it is the same everywhere

your other response is, "it isnt fair to ethnicities", or "its a poll tax"

the idea is the states provide a FREE ID....and yes, they will work with anyone who cant provide the necessary documentation

the idea is to get our elections as close to 100% fraud free as possible, and where no one can challenge them

that is the idea....all i hear from democrats is NO NO NO....not fair

The opposition is much more fundamental than that. As I asked another poster in a different thread: would you want your exercise of other rights--such as, say, freedom to own property, freedom of speech, freedom to bear arms--to depend on government giving you a document first? That goes to some pretty dark places pretty fast. Right now, in this generation, perhaps state governments are willing to give everyone the requisite ID. But is such guaranteed in a decade? In three? Or five? Once you've rung that particular bell, you cannot un-ring it. Given the ontic structure of voter ID proposals, it can only ever degrade in its purpose and practice. Will governments decide it's in their interest to deny the requisite document to certain groups? How could they not? Someone will get that idea eventually, and someone will eventually convince the ones with power that such is a good idea...and then what? Is that not a core fear of conservatives generally--that government should not be in the business of adjudicating who should be able to exercise their rights?

Now of course sometimes rights do have to be curtailed by government intervention. But when that is needed, it's because there is some serious problem. Currently, no one has ever demonstrated that a serious enough problem exists to begin contemplating such action.

 

[Captain America]

those of us that want voter ID are saying we want it to PREVENT FRAUD

and you all come back and say, but fraud isnt an issue

really? how would you really know....especially since most states dont have standardized rules where it is the same everywhere

your other response is, "it isnt fair to ethnicities", or "its a poll tax"

the idea is the states provide a FREE ID....and yes, they will work with anyone who cant provide the necessary documentation

the idea is to get our elections as close to 100% fraud free as possible, and where no one can challenge them

that is the idea....all i hear from democrats is NO NO NO....not fair

But a Washington Post analysis of data collected by three vote-by-mail states with help from the nonprofit Electronic Registration Information Center (ERIC) found that officials identified just 372 possible cases of double voting or voting on behalf of deceased people out of about 14.6 million votes cast by mail in the 2016 and 2018 general elections, or 0.0025 percent. <snip> https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...78aa26-a5c5-11ea-bb20-ebf0921f3bbd_story.html

If 0.0025% of the votes are fraud, that means that 99.975% are not. Wouldn't you say that is as close to 100% fraud free as humanly possible?

There's an old saying, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." All these whackado's cries fraud mostly falls upon deaf ears. And why not? Think about it. Most all the folks doing all the whining are science denier's, anti-vaxxer's, big lie believer's, etc. They made their bed. Only an idiot believes anything they say.

No, what it is, is that, due to the pandemic, and the historical success of mail-in voting, (see link above) many people voted by mail. I believe that many of those people, in normal situations, would have just stayed home on election day. They made voting so easy and so more people voted. And, since more people than not absolutely cannot stand Donald Trump, he got his ass handed to him on a silver platter.

Mail-in voting will eventually be the norm, I predict. Republicans do not like "easy" voting. They cannot win that way. I mean, they would like easy voting if it favored them. But it does not. Too many people vote. That's not good for the GQP. They (GOP) simply no longer have the numbers, nationally. So, they will cry foul, fraud and do anything in their power to cast doubt on our election system in order to justify the measures they want to take to make voting hard again. Desperate people do desperate things. It is a matter of survival for the GOP.

Fortunately, most Americans see right through their whining's and take them with a grain of salt. Those people are considered to be GQP, Qanon, Big Lie Believer types, by mainstream America. People living over in alternate "truth" Trumpsville are mostly just laughed at and not taken seriously anymore. I mean, it's their own fault. They've lost any shred of credibility and they did it to themselves. They have shown themselves to be either:
A. Incredibly gullible, or,
B. Deceitfully dishonest.

Neither is an admirable personality trait. But the good news is, they are a minority and their numbers are dropping everyday. (Still, they make up a significant portion of the GQP base, which is, in and of itself, a minority.) A pragmatic, honest, integrity driven conservative republican candidate cannot win any local election with out the votes of the whackado base. They have no choice but to suck up to these people if they want their votes. (I feel kind of bad for them, actually. I don't they want to be dishonest. I think the have to be dishonest. Lies and misinformation is the only thing a significant portion of their base understands.)

 

[US&THEM]

If there is a discrepancy, as in your bank metaphor, they find the reason that the subtotals and totals don't match and resolve it before certifying the results. Election officials can tell what precinct and station a ballot comes from.
It's also extremely indicative that you used the word 'likely' . To me , the word 'likely' says it all.

These people like to ignore “intent”. The teller had no intent for a short count, as to voter fraud there is intent and evidence

 

[mike2810]

That isn't my burden. You claimed that Biden won fair and square I don't believe you.

So what do you believe regarding the 2020 election?

 

[Jay59]

If there is a discrepancy, as in your bank metaphor, they find the reason that the subtotals and totals don't match and resolve it before certifying the results.

Not if the results are already certified. There was a major time crunch, as you can recall.

Election officials can tell what precinct and station a ballot comes from.

That's not relevant with mail ballots. Bear in mind we are talking about many thousands of ballots.

It's also extremely indicative that you used the word 'likely' . To me , the word 'likely' says it all.

It should not be.

I was never one who said the election was stolen. There is good reason to think it may have been, but no proof. Hence the focus on the next election.

 

[CLAX1911]

So what do you believe regarding the 2020 election?

I can tell you what I don't believe.

 

[OscarLevant]

The point being is that online banking can be, and has been, hacked.

The given example was how did banks improve service to their customers, as an analogy to voting security and integrity, i.e. why not online voting? why not mail in ballots?

But kinda hard to keep a consistent thought going through 3 different posters.

In the NK hack, the hackers shot for a billion, but wound up with 80 million, due to fail safe checks in the system and some mistakes they made. Still, they got away with a lot.

It's one thing to lose money, but far worse to lose democracy. Gotta have paper ballots to back up digital voting.

 

[OscarLevant]

That isn't my burden. You claimed that Biden won fair and square I don't believe you.

If you accuse someone of cheating, the onus is on you to prove it. Not Biden.

 

[OscarLevant]

I can tell you what I don't believe.

If you can't tell us what you don't believe, then how do you know you don't believe it?

That makes no sense.

 

[OscarLevant]

But a Washington Post analysis of data collected by three vote-by-mail states with help from the nonprofit Electronic Registration Information Center (ERIC) found that officials identified just 372 possible cases of double voting or voting on behalf of deceased people out of about 14.6 million votes cast by mail in the 2016 and 2018 general elections, or 0.0025 percent. <snip> https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...78aa26-a5c5-11ea-bb20-ebf0921f3bbd_story.html

If 0.0025% of the votes are fraud, that means that 99.975% are not. Wouldn't you say that is as close to 100% fraud free as humanly possible?

There's an old saying, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." All these whackado's cries fraud mostly falls upon deaf ears. And why not? Think about it. Most all the folks doing all the whining are science denier's, anti-vaxxer's, big lie believer's, etc. They made their bed. Only an idiot believes anything they say.

No, what it is, is that, due to the pandemic, and the historical success of mail-in voting, (see link above) many people voted by mail. I believe that many of those people, in normal situations, would have just stayed home on election day. They made voting so easy and so more people voted. And, since more people than not absolutely cannot stand Donald Trump, he got his ass handed to him on a silver platter.

Mail-in voting will eventually be the norm, I predict. Republicans do not like "easy" voting. They cannot win that way. I mean, they would like easy voting if it favored them. But it does not. Too many people vote. That's not good for the GQP. They (GOP) simply no longer have the numbers, nationally. So, they will cry foul, fraud and do anything in their power to cast doubt on our election system in order to justify the measures they want to take to make voting hard again. Desperate people do desperate things. It is a matter of survival for the GOP.

Fortunately, most Americans see right through their whining's and take them with a grain of salt. Those people are considered to be GQP, Qanon, Big Lie Believer types, by mainstream America. People living over in alternate "truth" Trumpsville are mostly just laughed at and not taken seriously anymore. I mean, it's their own fault. They've lost any shred of credibility and they did it to themselves. They have shown themselves to be either:
A. Incredibly gullible, or,
B. Deceitfully dishonest.

Neither is an admirable personality trait. But the good news is, they are a minority and their numbers are dropping everyday. (Still, they make up a significant portion of the GQP base, which is, in and of itself, a minority.) A pragmatic, honest, integrity driven conservative republican candidate cannot win any local election with out the votes of the whackado base. They have no choice but to suck up to these people if they want their votes. (I feel kind of bad for them, actually. I don't they want to be dishonest. I think the have to be dishonest. Lies and misinformation is the only thing a significant portion of their base understands.)

The funny thing is, conservatives had the wackadoo vote before Trump. What Trump did was become that group's champion, and now they are spoiled, they want Trump or someone just like him, they no longer what to settle for the high brow conservatives that existed before Trump. Trump got them to crawl out from under the logs, and give them power. Had Reince Priebus had a backbone, he could have evicted Trump from the GOP and forced him to run third party, and the GOP would have survived, Trump never would have been elected, and would have faded back to the comfort of his Trump Tower in NY.

 

[CLAX1911]

If you accuse someone of cheating,

I didn't make that accusation.

 

[CLAX1911]

If you can't tell us what you don't believe, then how do you know you don't believe it?

That makes no sense.

Well I know what I don't believe because I don't believe it I lack belief in it.

It makes perfect sense.

Have you ever talked to an atheist they'll tell you that atheism is the lack of belief does this not make sense to you?

 

[soap box]

I made no such claim.

I noticed you still don't have any evidence.

 

[soap box]

These people like to ignore “intent”. The teller had no intent for a short count, as to voter fraud there is intent and evidence

Good , show us the evidence.

 

[soap box]

Not if the results are already certified. There was a major time crunch, as you can recall.


That's not relevant with mail ballots. Bear in mind we are talking about many thousands of ballots.


It should not be.

I was never one who said the election was stolen. There is good reason to think it may have been, but no proof. Hence the focus on the next election.

You just invented a time crunch. That is not true at all..
With mail ballots they can look at the address of the voter when the return envelope reaches the station.
If we look at the results of the govenor's race in VA, we see very high turnout, and yet a republican won. What is all the nonsense about voter integrity legislation such as in Texas and GA? Why did Youngkin do so much better than Trump? It's because your theory of stolen elections is in your imagination. No where else. People didn't vote for trump because he's an ignorant authoritarian SOB liar. I saw your other post that the standard of proof in a court of law is just too much. Republicans, trumpers, can't tell the truth enough to make it through a court of law because they need proof. I do too. Why did Rudy and The Krack fail at more than 60 court cases?

 

[eohrnberger]

In the NK hack, the hackers shot for a billion, but wound up with 80 million, due to fail safe checks in the system and some mistakes they made. Still, they got away with a lot.
It's one thing to lose money, but far worse to lose democracy.

Gotta have paper ballots to back up digital voting.

I'd agree wit this position.

I'd also be of the position that the chain of custody of the ballots need be maintained at all times, and that ballot harvesting should be outlawed.
But I'm pretty sure there's some disagreement on the latter point if not both between you and I.

 

[US&THEM]

Good , show us the evidence.

I agree there isnt any evidence