The USPS is more than a service. It's a symbol of a functioning society

[NWRatCon]

The scope of this discussion has narrowed from the gravamen of the OP to the point that it is almost unrecognizable. From its outset, the post office was conceived by the constitutional framers as essential to knitting the United States together as a nation. It was the first institution they established independent of the mother country. It was enshrined in the Constitution. Ask yourself, why? What was so meritorious about the institution that it deserved billing in the text of our founding document? Does it still fulfill that function?

I submit it does. As much so as at our founding. Yes, the details may change, the prices may change, the process may change, but the concept remains. It is OUR post office, part of our national fiber, and still performs the function of being our premier national institution.

 

[NWRatCon]

Okay so let's look at it in full context.


Most magazines don't even print out a paper edition they used to. so they don't need the Post office and mail it anywhere in the US.

okay you must have misunderstood because I never argued that they are completely useless I said their usefulness has dwindled.
Not entirely disappeared. so for the few magazine companies that actually print out a paper magazine it's still there.

I pointed out that you typed a bold-faced lie. It damn sure disagree with me and argued with me the usefulness of the post office has dwindled.

Not a lie, a forest/tree disagreement. But, whatever assuages your ego, I suppose. I'll give you that I disagreed with that particular assertion. It's hard to keep up, you're wrong about so many things...

 

[CLAX1911]

Not a lie, a forest/tree disagreement.

No, you said you didn't do something you clearly did.

But, whatever assuages your ego, I suppose. I'll give you that I disagreed with that particular assertion. It's hard to keep up, you're wrong about so many things...

I haven't been wrong once on this thread.

You can make it as personal as you want. I don't engage in that.

 

[CLAX1911]

The scope of this discussion has narrowed from the gravamen of the OP to the point that it is almost unrecognizable. From its outset, the post office was conceived by the constitutional framers as essential to knitting the United States together as a nation. It was the first institution they established independent of the mother country. It was enshrined in the Constitution. Ask yourself, why? What was so meritorious about the institution that it deserved billing in the text of our founding document? Does it still fulfill that function?

I submit it does. As much so as at our founding. Yes, the details may change, the prices may change, the process may change, but the concept remains. It is OUR post office, part of our national fiber, and still performs the function of being our premier national institution.

Again, the usefulness of the post office has dwindled. I don't think it should be dismantled.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

Nothing wrong with privatizing as much as possible of government services.

Private corrections disproves that entirely.

Private prisons sue states for "not having enough prisoners"

The very idea that incarceration is a profit center is totally at cross purposes with the idea of reducing crime.
A reduction in crime is the very last thing private corrections wants.
In fact, the more crime there is, the better they like it.

Sorry, privatizing SERVICES is completely nuts.

Let me know when you can mount an effective argument in favor of $8.25 for an ordinary First Class Letter or fifteen bucks to mail a DVD in a padded envelope.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

"The USPS is more than a service. It's a symbol of a functioning society"


I guess Germany and the UK fell into a dis-functioning society after they privatised Bundespost and Royal Mail respectively.

:lol:

What does it cost to mail a DVD in a padded envelope over there, or an ordinary First Class Letter?
If it's anywhere near three to five bucks for the DVD and a dollar for the letter, I'll agree with you.
And what about remote rural areas, can customers in those outlying areas get guaranteed delivery even though the route might not be profitable?

 

[jimbo]

Private corrections disproves that entirely.

Private prisons sue states for "not having enough prisoners"

The very idea that incarceration is a profit center is totally at cross purposes with the idea of reducing crime.
A reduction in crime is the very last thing private corrections wants.
In fact, the more crime there is, the better they like it.

Sorry, privatizing SERVICES is completely nuts.

Let me know when you can mount an effective argument in favor of $8.25 for an ordinary First Class Letter or fifteen bucks to mail a DVD in a padded envelope.

Your argument is subsidies. The real question is how much does it cost for a first class letter to be picked up and delivered? Subsidies can be applied at any point and to anyone.

Since we've never had competition in the mail business, there is no justification for your suggested outrageous cost of first class or parcel post claims.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

"Closer to privatization" is not "got rid of."

I don't know about anyone else, but 90% of the paper mail I get is junk that goes straight from my mailbox to the recycle bin. The other 10% are mostly bills and investment statements I never read because I get it all online. As environmentalists, Democrats should welcome transforming the postal service into a business that actually charges the cost of the services it delivers, specifically to discourage this pointless waste.

PAEA was passed in the House by voice vote without objection, and passed the Senate by unanimous consent. And when Dems took over in 2008, they didn't repeal it. So it's hard to imagine how you can blame Republicans for it.

Excuse me, they COULDN'T repeal it because it was blocked by a filibuster.
And PAEA was an exploding cigar bill, introduced as being helpful.
The Senate might have passed it but check out the changes they made to the original House bill.

`(B) Not later than June 30, 2017, the Office shall compute, and by
June 30 of each succeeding year shall recompute, a schedule including a
series of annual installments which provide for the liquidation of any
liability or surplus by September 30, 2056, or within 15 years,
whichever is later, of the net present value determined under
subparagraph (A), including interest at the rate used in that
computation.
``(3)(A) The United States Postal Service shall pay into such Fund--
``(i) $5,400,000,000, not later than September 30, 2007;
``(ii) $5,600,000,000, not later than September 30, 2008;
``(iii) $5,400,000,000, not later than September 30, 2009;
``(iv) $5,500,000,000, not later than September 30, 2010;

[[Page 120 STAT. 3252]]

``(v) $5,500,000,000, not later than September 30, 2011;
``(vi) $5,600,000,000, not later than September 30, 2012;
``(vii) $5,600,000,000, not later than September 30, 2013;
``(viii) $5,700,000,000, not later than September 30, 2014;
``(ix) $5,700,000,000, not later than September 30, 2015;
and
``(x) $5,800,000,000, not later than September 30, 2016.

``(B) Not later than September 30, 2017, and by September 30 of each
succeeding year, the United States Postal Service shall pay into such
Fund the sum of--
``(i) the net present value computed under paragraph (1);
and
``(ii) any annual installment computed under paragraph
(2)(B).

Oh looky ^^^, I think we found an extra 61,400,000,000 dollars.
Can you or anyone GUARANTEE that this sixty-one billion actually WILL BE PAID to postal employees seventy five years into the future?
I ask because if it wasn't for the annual five billion in ransom, the USPS would not be in so much debt.
Is there a PAEA for Congress? The Pentagon (they can't account for two trillion dollars, you know) or how about the military as a whole?
Is there ANY agency OR private corporation required to do such a thing?

And you're right, you DON'T KNOW about anyone else.
A lot of people depend on the USPS to ship stuff for a living.

How Congress Manufactured a Postal Crisis — And How to Fix it

I do not "blame Republicans", I blame Trump for exploiting known vulnerabilities.

 

[Noodlegawd]

Excuse me, they COULDN'T repeal it because it was blocked by a filibuster.

What part of "unanimous consent" don't you understand?

They can't filibuster legislation if nobody introduces it.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

Your argument is subsidies. The real question is how much does it cost for a first class letter to be picked up and delivered? Subsidies can be applied at any point and to anyone.

Since we've never had competition in the mail business, there is no justification for your suggested outrageous cost of first class or parcel post claims.

That is what it costs to send one via FedEx.
The Post Office was never designed to be a profitable corporation.
And you're going to have to prove that a private company can GUARANTEE delivery everywhere the way they do.

Not all delivery routes can be made profitable. A private outfit could conceivable drop those routes.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

What part of "unanimous consent" don't you understand?

They can't filibuster legislation if nobody introduces it.

It's two different things, you're making it sound like someone repeals a bill as it is signed into law.
You're not making any sense.

And in any case, you're right if you're arguing that Congress created this mess, yes they did.
But Congress is not the one exploiting vulnerabilities right now, are they?

 

[Noodlegawd]

It's two different things, you're making it sound like someone repeals a bill as it is signed into law.
You're not making any sense.

And in any case, you're right if you're arguing that Congress created this mess, yes they did.
But Congress is not the one exploiting vulnerabilities right now, are they?

WTF are you talking about?

The bill was passed without objection in the House, and by unanimous consent in the Senate. That means no Democrat spoke up to stop it from being passed.

And then a few years later, when Dems had control of the House, Senate, and White House nobody even TRIED to repeal it.

So you can blame Dems just as easily as you can blame Republicans.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

WTF are you talking about?

The bill was passed without objection in the House, and by unanimous consent in the Senate. That means no Democrat spoke up to stop it from being passed.

And then a few years later, when Dems had control of the House, Senate, and White House nobody even TRIED to repeal it.

So you can blame Dems just as easily as you can blame Republicans.

A few years later when Dems had control of the House and Senate?
Show me when that was, please.

 

[jimbo]

That is what it costs to send one via FedEx.
The Post Office was never designed to be a profitable corporation.
And you're going to have to prove that a private company can GUARANTEE delivery everywhere the way they do.

Not all delivery routes can be made profitable. A private outfit could conceivable drop those routes.

FedEx is not yet in the letter delivery business.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

FedEx is not yet in the letter delivery business.

FedEx Letter Rates

 

[Noodlegawd]

A few years later when Dems had control of the House and Senate?
Show me when that was, please.

Oh boy. This is not a history class. Look it up. Hint: it's the same time when ACA was passed.

 

[NWRatCon]

No, you said you didn't do something you clearly did.
I haven't been wrong once on this thread.

You can make it as personal as you want. I don't engage in that.

ROFL. Thanks. I needed a laugh.

 

[CLAX1911]

ROFL. Thanks. I needed a laugh.

Seems you derailed you're own thread.

Maybe you should think about that before starting another one

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

Oh boy. This is not a history class. Look it up. Hint: it's the same time when ACA was passed.

Oh no, you made the claim that Dems had a majority, so it is your claim.
Now suddenly you want ME to do your homework for you.
I just wanted a little bit more info on that majority, not a history class.

 

[Noodlegawd]

Oh no, you made the claim that Dems had a majority, so it is your claim.
Now suddenly you want ME to do your homework for you.
I just wanted a little bit more info on that majority, not a history class.

Sorry, I'm not writing a legal brief. These are well-known, non-controversial facts. If you don't believe me, then don't believe me. I don't really care.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

Sorry, I'm not writing a legal brief. These are well-known, non-controversial facts. If you don't believe me, then don't believe me. I don't really care.

That has nothing to do with it.

Debunking the Myth: Obama’s Two-Year Supermajority

If you look back, the president needed a supermajority because of the Republicans’ unprecedented use of obstruction tactics.
Anything with less than sixty votes wouldn't even be heard.

And the fact is, there were only about seventy days, split into small segments of about a week or two each, where there ever was any kind of supermajority. In a normal functioning legislature YOU could conceivably argue that a supermajority is not needed.
But it wasn't a normal functioning legislature, it was Mitch McConnell's record obstruction legislature, and it continues today, with over four hundred House bills sitting on McConnell's desk which won't ever even get a hearing.

So no, these are not well known non controversial facts.
And in any case, we're in agreement that Congress helped create this mess, as I alluded to earlier.
But Trump is exploiting USPS vulnerabilities.

That will not be forgotten.

 

[Noodlegawd]

That has nothing to do with it.

Debunking the Myth: Obama’s Two-Year Supermajority

If you look back, the president needed a supermajority because of the Republicans’ unprecedented use of obstruction tactics.
Anything with less than sixty votes wouldn't even be heard.

And the fact is, there were only about seventy days, split into small segments of about a week or two each, where there ever was any kind of supermajority. In a normal functioning legislature YOU could conceivably argue that a supermajority is not needed.
But it wasn't a normal functioning legislature, it was Mitch McConnell's record obstruction legislature, and it continues today, with over four hundred House bills sitting on McConnell's desk which won't ever even get a hearing.

So no, these are not well known non controversial facts.
And in any case, we're in agreement that Congress helped create this mess, as I alluded to earlier.
But Trump is exploiting USPS vulnerabilities.

That will not be forgotten.

Wow, you're really grasping at straws.

1. I didn't say anything about a supermajority, I said they had control, which they did, buy a lot.
2. Somehow, despite not having a supermajority, the 111th Congress managed to pass the ACA and dozens of other pieces of legislation. Hell, they probably could have snuck repeal of PAEA into the ACA, because I doubt that many people actually read it. Remember Pelosi's famous quote.
3. The fact that a party didn't have a supermajority never stopped them from introducing legislation before. How many bills did Dems. introduce in the 111th?
4. This is all a meaningless sideshow anyway, because, as I pointed out, every single Dem in the Senate and House effectively voted FOR it.

The OP didn't say that "Congress" created this mess. He blamed it squarely on Republicans, which is total nonsense. So stop trying to move the goalposts.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

Wow, you're really grasping at straws.

1. I didn't say anything about a supermajority, I said they had control, which they did, buy a lot.
2. Somehow, despite not having a supermajority, the 111th Congress managed to pass the ACA and dozens of other pieces of legislation. Hell, they probably could have snuck repeal of PAEA into the ACA, because I doubt that many people actually read it. Remember Pelosi's famous quote.
3. The fact that a party didn't have a supermajority never stopped them from introducing legislation before. How many bills did Dems. introduce in the 111th?
4. This is all a meaningless sideshow anyway, because, as I pointed out, every single Dem in the Senate and House effectively voted FOR it.

The OP didn't say that "Congress" created this mess. He blamed it squarely on Republicans, which is total nonsense. So stop trying to move the goalposts.

And I said that Congress helped create the mess and it's going to take Congress to fix it.
I did not write the OP, did I?

Hey, you can ignore record obstruction if you want...

 

[Noodlegawd]

I did not write the OP, did I?

That sure didn't stop you from butting in and trying to change the topic.

And now you're claiming I'm a Trump supporter, which is also BS. So much for your love of facts.

 

[Lovebug]

When Trump (and Republicans) try to dismantle the USPS

I wondered, as I picked up a bit of junk mail at the mailbox today, why the USPS is in such trouble. What about instant communication, going paperless, packages being delivered by UPS or Fedex?