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The US Needs More Defense Spending

Well then you must have stayed in an isolated part of govt void of the vast majority of govt. Govt agencies waste money like no other, and contractors work as inneficient as possible to justify a larger workforce to justify a bigger budget and more profits. The military and all govt agencies waste money, military being one of if not the worst waster, we should not be demanding more money but rather better use of the money we have first.

Good god I have personally seen millions of dollars wasted in my course of dealing with the government as a contractor. Its so stupid the amount of money they waste almost all of which could have been averted by proper planning especially when doing military exercises and such.
 
I disagree, the us govt punishes agencies for not spending enough, and you are arguing it is efficient, I served in the us army and the national guard and also live next to the largest army base in the country, so I get to see this stuff daily, and the govt is not only wasteful it punishes it's agencies for not being wasteful enough, while you mostly claim cia which no one has any real means to verify as most of their spending is outside the view of the civilian world unlike the military branches and other govt agencies.

I think your characterization of US government agencies is inaccurate for the most part.
 
Good god I have personally seen millions of dollars wasted in my course of dealing with the government as a contractor. Its so stupid the amount of money they waste almost all of which could have been averted by proper planning especially when doing military exercises and such.

I have watched money go down the drain plenty of times, as I said and as you and many others already know the govt punishes for conserving money and rewards waste.
 
Would that be enough, given that health care would be extended to a portion of the population not currently paying into the health care system?

Are you willing to accept lesser service for the same cost?

considering that other first world countries are achieving similar outcomes at a fraction of the cost, i am willing to take the chance.
 
I think your characterization of US government agencies is inaccurate for the most part.

Well explain so, what experience do you have with govt budgeting and aquisition? I had to deal with humvee engines bought from dol fort hood for 14k per engine, that were nothing more than a re ring of the one cylinder with bad compression and a coat of paint, they were so bad we would send them back before installing and instead try to get engines from k-town in germany because atleast most of theirs worked. I had to look through supply books, to see where some things like desks identical to what you got at ikea would cost 2-3k and some tools costing upwards of 2000% higher than the litteral civilian version.


Now not all contractors are bad, osh kosh was fairly reasonable on their prices, most of their rediculous costs were what the army demanded, I can see demanding high dollar for up armor kits and blue force trackers and installing secure radio transmissions, but for other companies it was a blatant rip off, things like 2-3k for a cheap desk or 1200 dollars for a hammer that was 16 dollars at the hardware store.
 
Well explain so, what experience do you have with govt budgeting and aquisition? I had to deal with humvee engines bought from dol fort hood for 14k per engine, that were nothing more than a re ring of the one cylinder with bad compression and a coat of paint, they were so bad we would send them back before installing and instead try to get engines from k-town in germany because atleast most of theirs worked. I had to look through supply books, to see where some things like desks identical to what you got at ikea would cost 2-3k and some tools costing upwards of 2000% higher than the litteral civilian version.


Now not all contractors are bad, osh kosh was fairly reasonable on their prices, most of their rediculous costs were what the army demanded, I can see demanding high dollar for up armor kits and blue force trackers and installing secure radio transmissions, but for other companies it was a blatant rip off, things like 2-3k for a cheap desk or 1200 dollars for a hammer that was 16 dollars at the hardware store.

While on active service I ran budgets in the hundreds of millions of dollars.
At Raytheon I worked on project design.
As a contractor I was a resource for research, training and mentoring.
 
While on active service I ran budgets in the hundreds of millions of dollars.
At Raytheon I worked on project design.
As a contractor I was a resource for research, training and mentoring.

So what did you run at raytheon, what was the cia budget spent on, please explain as I can easily explain what army units spend their money on as it is publicly available for everything but recent secret and top secret, which the vast majority of the military is not covered under for spending.
 
I think your characterization of US government agencies is inaccurate for the most part.

I dont know who you have worked for, but I have worked directly for the DOD, FEMA, the Dept. of the Interior, Dept. of Energy, amongst others either as a consultant or service and equipment provider. I have seen and been in the middle of stupid ass **** the government does and all the cronyism and profiteering bull**** that goes with it, especially overseas where it is much worse. In the US its mainly stupid **** and lazy ass piss poor planning or preserving the budget bull****. Overseas it tends more to flat out cronyism, blatant profiteering, and bribery. Dont get me started about the Logcap 3 and 4 projects in the Iraq theater, the **** the contractors and government jaskasses pulled, you would not believe if someone just told you, you would have to have evidence. It runs the spectrum.
 
So what did you run at raytheon, what was the cia budget spent on, please explain as I can easily explain what army units spend their money on as it is publicly available for everything but recent secret and top secret, which the vast majority of the military is not covered under for spending.

Sorry, I won't discuss CIA budget items but I can tell you my career was in operations. All classified.
At Raytheon I was Director of Program Development, Special Operations and Technologies.
 
I dont know who you have worked for, but I have worked directly for the DOD, FEMA, the Dept. of the Interior, Dept. of Energy, amongst others either as a consultant or service and equipment provider. I have seen and been in the middle of stupid ass **** the government does and all the cronyism and profiteering bull**** that goes with it, especially overseas where it is much worse. In the US its mainly stupid **** and lazy ass piss poor planning or preserving the budget bull****. Overseas it tends more to flat out cronyism, blatant profiteering, and bribery. Dont get me started about the Logcap 3 and 4 projects in the Iraq theater, the **** the contractors and government jaskasses pulled, you would not believe if someone just told you, you would have to have evidence. It runs the spectrum.

My experience was quite different, and I had significant budget authority. Please see #106.
 
That is already done. Then the planners have to match up the strategy with what they can get in the way of a budget.
Yes, that is how it is actually done and rightly so. It isn’t how your OP is proposing it should be done. It doesn’t take the blindest bit of account for military planning or budgeting. It isn’t saying “We should spend more because the military is asking for more”, it’s saying “We should spend more because these other countries are spending more”.
 
Mr. Samuelson's article is not persuasive. America spends more than eight times what the next largest military spending states do. But what he doesn't see fit to mention is that five of those "rival spenders" are actually Western states closely aligned and allied with the USA. One could claim that there could be a defection of Europe from the US sphere of influence but that is very unlikely and if it did become a real possibility then diplomacy, not military strength would be needed to deal with such a situation as two of those powers are nuclear armed.

The table of weapons by the Heritage Foundation is a problem area too. It puts Russian tank strength at 3000 but fails to mention that in 1985 it was 20,000 under the Soviet Union. It cites China as having 6700 tanks but many of those are Chinese versions of ancient T-54, T-55 and T-62 MBT's which even Russia has retired now. The number also included lighter vehicles than main battle tanks which the comparable versions of are not included in the US total. There are more such errors/misrepresentations in the table and the article as a whole but these examples should be enough to make readers wary and very, very skeptical of Mr. Samuelson's arguments for higher US military spending.

The argument that China and Russia have lower relative costs compared to the inflated costs of US kit and personnel costs is somewhat valid (especially legacy-costs like pensions and medical coverage for post-service veterans) but it also masks another reality which Samuelson does not mention. The Chinese and Russian militaries are essentially defensive structures designed to protect each nation and its near abroad. Even the recent build-up of Chinese naval strength is focused on littoral power projection and area denial and is not even close to being a powerful enough blue-water navy which could challenge the US Navy in any meaningful way, except along the coastline of China itself. In contrast to Russia and China, the US military is a global military leviathan designed to project overwhelming military force (and thus political power) in multiple locations all around the world (and in space and cyberspace) simultaneously. It needs this multiply redundant force-projection capability to enforce discipline on its invisible (does not appear on maps) but very real commercial and financial empire which is global in scope. It is there to suppress economic nationalism, to limit other state's access to strategic resources, to control trade routes and to threaten uncooperative states; it is designed and used not to assure global peace but to belligerently enforce US global military, political and economic hegemony.

The argument that the US is the global policeman protecting the world from wars and therefore needs such an expensive military is a sham. The majority of the serious wars and military interventions fought since WWII were either caused or outright started by US policy makers so the US is an out of control, rogue cop which isn't preventing wars but is rather causing most of them in the first place.

The US military needs to be downsized and reoriented towards a far more defensive force structure designed to protect America (not project and protect corporate America's business interests) and such cuts will force it to give up the role of unilaterally self-anointed world cop. That job must now be done by coalitions of states rather than by a monopolar global superpower which is driven by its own narrow self-interests. Cutting military budgets carefully and responsibly is the only way to force this evolution from global cop/bully-boy to a responsible senior partner working in cooperation with other like-minded states to foster peace and prevent war.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.

Well posted; you’ll be lucky to get a single sentence in reply.....:thumbs:
 
Good god I have personally seen millions of dollars wasted in my course of dealing with the government as a contractor. Its so stupid the amount of money they waste almost all of which could have been averted by proper planning especially when doing military exercises and such.

My experience mirrors the “waste not, want not” posters in this thread. My experiences are over 40 years old.

I have watched money go down the drain plenty of times, as I said and as you and many others already know the govt punishes for conserving money and rewards waste.

I was a junior NCO and every year, I think it was warm months, (fiscal year and all), we were told to check every vehicle for missing tools and anything which we “needed.” It was explained to me that if we didn’t spend as much as last year, we would have the budget reduced. Doesn’t seem much has changed...
 
My experience was quite different, and I had significant budget authority. Please see #106.

I imagine it was. If you had budgetary authority then you were on the top end of the spectrum maybe high enough you didnt see the dirt. What I have experienced first hand lends me to believe government spending isn't all lollipops sunshine and rainbows. https://www.forbes.com/sites/kotlik...-hiding-21-trillion-in-spending/#1587eee14a73 Forbes seems agree with me in this more recent article. I know for a fact, from first hand knowledge of waste fraud and abuse that numbered in millions from the Logcap 3 and 4 contracts alone. The Kuwaiti's robbed us blind on the equipment rentals, in which apparently we were required to rent from only their companies as part of an agreement our government made with them. We were paying on the order $10,000 a month lease per vehicle tractor or trailer we rented to transport DOD freight maintained and driven by American expats at the time. Thats with NO armor or improvements or maintenance parts. if one was lost in combat they charged a mere $150,000, for truck or trailer. Thats in 2003 dollars for a vehicle that literally was rolled out of a junkyard. I **** you not. In 2019 you can purchase a brand new truck for about $2500 month or about $150000, in 2003 it was about $2000 and $100,000. At the time JB Hunt was unloading their older fleet truck which could have bought outright for 10,000 apiece at the time. Bought outright used American trucks that were expendable and cheap and the American expat mechanics knew very well how to work on them and parts were plentiful. By the way KBR/ Halliburton was notified of this along with the Pentagon.
 
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Yes, that is how it is actually done and rightly so. It isn’t how your OP is proposing it should be done. It doesn’t take the blindest bit of account for military planning or budgeting. It isn’t saying “We should spend more because the military is asking for more”, it’s saying “We should spend more because these other countries are spending more”.

The author assumes the existence of the planning process and assumes his readers are aware of it. His point is that resources are inadequate to meet the missions called for by our planners.
 
I imagine it was. If you had budgetary authority then you were on the top end of the spectrum maybe high enough you didnt see the dirt. What I have experienced first hand lends me to believe government spending isn't all lollipops sunshine and rainbows. https://www.forbes.com/sites/kotlik...-hiding-21-trillion-in-spending/#1587eee14a73 Forbes seems agree with me in this more recent article. I know for a fact, from first hand knowledge of waste fraud and abuse that numbered in millions from the Logcap 3 and 4 contracts alone. The Kuwaiti's robbed us blind on the equipment rentals, in which apparently we were required to rent from only their companies as part of an agreement our government made with them. We were paying on the order $10,000 a month lease per vehicle tractor or trailer we rented to transport DOD freight maintained and driven by American expats at the time. Thats with NO armor or improvements or maintenance parts. if one was lost in combat they charged a mere $150,000, for truck or trailer. Thats in 2003 dollars for a vehicle that literally was rolled out of a junkyard. I **** you not. In 2019 you can purchase a brand new truck for about $2500 month or about $150000, in 2003 it was about $2000 and $100,000. At the time JB Hunt was unloading their older fleet truck which could have bought outright for 10,000 apiece at the time. Bought outright used American trucks that were expendable and cheap and the American expat mechanics knew very well how to work on them and parts were plentiful. By the way KBR/ Halliburton was notified of this along with the Pentagon.

I do not claim there is no waste, fraud or abuse. That's why we have auditors and IG's. What I claim is that in the aggregate the amount of money involved is not enough to make a difference in this discussion. Bringing it up is a way to dodge the question. It's an excuse.
 
The author assumes the existence of the planning process and assumes his readers are aware of it. His point is that resources are inadequate to meet the missions called for by our planners.
That may well be his opinion but it isn’t what this article said. Even as a challenge to the argument that military spending is high enough/too high, it only serves to create the false image that it’s any kind of relevant factor. The challenge to that argument should simply be “Too much for what?” and move in to that valid questions of what we want and expect the military to do.
 
That may well be his opinion but it isn’t what this article said. Even as a challenge to the argument that military spending is high enough/too high, it only serves to create the false image that it’s any kind of relevant factor. The challenge to that argument should simply be “Too much for what?” and move in to that valid questions of what we want and expect the military to do.

Sorry, but that's an illusory objection. The author has a right to assume basic familiarity with the process among those who will be interested in the topic.
 
I do not claim there is no waste, fraud or abuse. That's why we have auditors and IG's. What I claim is that in the aggregate the amount of money involved is not enough to make a difference in this discussion. Bringing it up is a way to dodge the question. It's an excuse.

So why is Forbes and others calling out the Pentagon and other agencies for significant amounts of fraud waste abuse and theft? Your auditors and IG's dont seem to be very effective. I have never seen hide nor hair of one in all of my dealings and have been issued equipment, and have issued equipment and provided service for the government in 30 plus years I have been doing my primary craft.

There's a thing going around the internet that claims the Pentagon lost 8 trillion or so dollars. Metabunk points out this is false. https://www.metabunk.org/debunked-8-5-trillion-missing-from-the-pentagon.t3173/ I am not a fan of Metabunk myself, but in this case they are mostly right for the right reasons. They point out things such as the baseline yearly budget, missing documentation, etcetera. A good audit requires documentation. You cant really audit anything without it. The problem with the DLA, DOD et al is they have been very lax about keeping documentation. Very few if any heads have rolled over this. Thats why the situation is currently very pervasive. In the period of 2000-2019 the pentagon could have easily lost a trillion dollars even at 500 billion dollar baseline funding levels not including separate expenditures for war and combat related monies. This would be especially true for the 2001-2011 or so when the US where still engaged heavily in Iraq and Afghanistan. Lots of money was lost in those ****holes.
 
So why is Forbes and others calling out the Pentagon and other agencies for significant amounts of fraud waste abuse and theft? Your auditors and IG's dont seem to be very effective. I have never seen hide nor hair of one in all of my dealings and have been issued equipment, and have issued equipment and provided service for the government in 30 plus years I have been doing my primary craft.

There's a thing going around the internet that claims the Pentagon lost 8 trillion or so dollars. Metabunk points out this is false. https://www.metabunk.org/debunked-8-5-trillion-missing-from-the-pentagon.t3173/ I am not a fan of Metabunk myself, but in this case they are mostly right for the right reasons. They point out things such as the baseline yearly budget, missing documentation, etcetera. A good audit requires documentation. You cant really audit anything without it. The problem with the DLA, DOD et al is they have been very lax about keeping documentation. Very few if any heads have rolled over this. Thats why the situation is currently very pervasive. In the period of 2000-2019 the pentagon could have easily lost a trillion dollars even at 500 billion dollar baseline funding levels not including separate expenditures for war and combat related monies. This would be especially true for the 2001-2011 or so when the US where still engaged heavily in Iraq and Afghanistan. Lots of money was lost in those ****holes.

And it doesn't matter.
 
We need to spend more on defense, not less.

Believe we’re spending too much on defense? Think again.


Any advantage the United States military may have enjoyed in size is shrinking.





Whenever I or someone else suggest that we need higher defense spending, there is an incredulous response from critics: U.S. military spending equals the outlays of the next eight countries combined . How can we possibly be spending too little when we spend so much more than any conceivable adversary? The answer is that, while technically accurate, this argument is so distorted that it becomes a fiction.
Global comparisons of military spending mislead for several reasons. One is secrecy. “What they report is not what they spend,” says Todd Harrison of the Center for Strategic and International Studies. A second reason is that, since World War II, the United States has assumed strategic responsibility for ensuring stability in Europe, Asia and the Middle East. Neither China nor Russia has yet embraced similarly sweeping goals.
This boosts our spending and restrains theirs, says Harrison. Hence, we have 10 full-size aircraft carriers to project our power abroad; no other country comes close. Moving all those troops, tanks, ships and planes around the globe is expensive. In fiscal 2017, the U.S military consumed 98 million barrels of oil, costing $8.8 billion.

But there’s another reason Chinese and Russian spending is understated. Put simply, their soldiers and sailors cost less; ours cost more. We are a rich country with a volunteer military. Given the personal sacrifices that service members make, their wages and fringe benefits must be competitive to attract the needed recruits. China and Russia have lower costs and can buy more for less.
“Due to differences in purchasing power across economies . . . two countries could hypothetically field the same size and quality force at dramatically different spending levels,” said a 2017 report from the Center for National Defense at the Heritage Foundation, a conservative think tank. . . .

Defense no longer dominates the federal budget, as it once did. That distinction has fallen to health and retirement benefits. During the Cold War — from 1950 to 1990 — military outlays averaged 40 percent of federal spending and 7.4 percent of the economy’s output (gross domestic product). Now those figures are 15 percent and 3.13 percent, respectively, according to a recent CSIS report co- written by Harrison and Seamus P. Daniels.
It’s also true, as we’ve learned in Iraq and Afghanistan, that military power has its limits. We can’t spend our way to victory; but we can probably skimp our way to defeat.




I support adding a 20% "defense surcharge" on all income over $500,000. That should take care of the Defense budget.
 
The answer to this is actually rather simple.

The problem is not the amount we are spending, as much as the how it is being spent.

Most of our military equipment is old. As in 3 decades old and older old. It is quite common to see equipment like trucks and the like in the motor pool that were new during my first enlistment in the military.

In 1985.

A great percentage of our equipment is to be honest falling apart. We are spending huge amounts of money in refurbishing and repairing them, something that no sane organization anywhere else does that. Does anybody think that FedEx or UPS uses 30 year old trucks to deliver packages? Flies them around in 30 year old planes? But that is exactly what the US military does on a daily basis. Trucking companies know that after around 10 years the maintenance costs and down time start to outweigh any benefits of having a "paid off truck", so they replace them.

The military does not do that, because then somebody would jump up and down and scream that we were "wasting money".

Then there is the other thing. 1/3 of the DoD personnel are civilians. Then you have the contractors, which are hard to figure out buy many estimate that the number is the same or higher than the members in uniform (as many as 1.5 million).

So first step, get rid of most of those contractors. Doing jobs such as washing dishes, changing light bulbs, guarding the gates, mowing the grass, managing the barracks, issuing the equipment, changing the oil in vehicles, and 10,000 other jobs that the military itself did just fine until the 1990's. Fire most of them, put the military back to work doing those things.

The same with the bloated civilian sector of the DoD. The number of civilians I see today is staggering to somebody who served in the 1980's. And these are government employees, handling such important jobs as checking the ID of people entering the gym, and running the projector at the base theater. Get rid of them all, that is a job that formerly was done by military members who were in the last weeks-month of their contract and were coasting before getting out, somebody who was injured and could only handle such light duties, or as a "bennie" for somebody who had been working their butt off on a difficult mission and a few months of easy duty was part of the reward.

Nope, not no more. Now they are all done by civilians. Cut the fat in those areas (and start replacing the oldest equipment which will eliminate maintenance costs) and you will get a better and stronger military with little to no added expense.
 
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