The Trump delusion has finally started wearing off

[vanceen]

...

Pence said Donald Trump’s rhetoric during the Jan. 6, 2021, attack on the U.S. Capitol was “reckless?”

Reckless? It wasn't reckless it was dangerous. Dangerous for our country. Dangerous for Pence and his family. And dangerous for lawmakers who were running for their lives on Jan. 6.

...

Does "reckless" ever not mean "dangerous"?

 

[Rawley]

I already told you this. Trump got fewer votes than his opponent every time.

And the Yankees scored more runs that the Pirates in the 1960 World Series. Most runs in WS history. That's your "point?" LOL

 

[Craig234]

The reasons primaries get bad results is not because they are "corrupted", but because only a small group of voters usually participate. It's the same phenomenon as call-in polls, you get the zealots and not very many ordinary people. I think there's a fair bit of ground between primary elections and "smoke filled rooms". The convention process worked very well for a very long time.

I'm going to disagree, but we need to clarify our arguments. What does corrupted mean. I think billions from special interests spent on a propaganda system that changes public opinion to misguided opinions is corrupting. And I think that's a big part of the problem, while you're not wrong that low participation has an effect.

I'm not so sure there is that ground between primaries and smoke-filled rooms.

We definitely have the special interests and the billions of dollars and they have more rights than ever thanks to the Republican courts. Whether they operate by trying to manipulate voters in primaries or more directly in backrooms (no longer smoke-filled) or something between, they're going to be a force. I don't know what that 'ground' would look like or why it would be better.

You say the convention process worked very well. I'd beg to differ. I think that's more inaccurate history than accurate. I can point to all kinds of policies that caused harm, were unjust, undermined the interests of the American people much less others, that the pre-primary system caused. And to all kinds of good policies that happened under the primary system when the voters chose Democrats.

How did civil rights go for a century before primaries, and how did they go when primaries gave us JFK and LBJ?

 

[Jredbaron96]

LOL What was your "actual" point?

I thought it was pretty obvious the point was that the American people rejected Trump on both occasions he ran for office.

 

[Deuce]

And the Yankees scored more runs that the Pirates in the 1960 World Series. Most runs in WS history. That's your "point?" LOL

You claimed Biden was the worst president or whatever, but the American people preferred both Hillary Clinton and Joe Biden. That's how bad your guy is.

 

[vanceen]

I'm going to disagree, but we need to clarify our arguments. What does corrupted mean. I think billions from special interests spent on a propaganda system that changes public opinion to misguided opinions is corrupting. And I think that's a big part of the problem, while you're not wrong that low participation has an effect.

I'm not so sure there is that ground between primaries and smoke-filled rooms.

We definitely have the special interests and the billions of dollars and they have more rights than ever thanks to the Republican courts. Whether they operate by trying to manipulate voters in primaries or more directly in backrooms (no longer smoke-filled) or something between, they're going to be a force. I don't know what that 'ground' would look like or why it would be better.

You say the convention process worked very well. I'd beg to differ. I think that's more inaccurate history than accurate. I can point to all kinds of policies that caused harm, were unjust, undermined the interests of the American people much less others, that the pre-primary system caused. And to all kinds of good policies that happened under the primary system when the voters chose Democrats.

How did civil rights go for a century before primaries, and how did they go when primaries gave us JFK and LBJ?

Yes, we'll have to disagree.

I will point out, however, a couple of things.

For what it's worth, I'm pretty sure Kennedy and Johnson were not selected by primaries. The big push for binding primaries came when Humphrey was nominated in 1968 after winning zero primaries.

More to the point, I can offer the counter-examples of Lincoln, both Roosevelts, and Eisenhower, who were all selected under the convention system.

 

[Rawley]

You claimed Biden was the worst president or whatever, but the American people preferred both Hillary Clinton and Joe Biden. That's how bad your guy is.

Your opinion. My opinion is that he's the worst President in my lifetime, hands down.

 

[Deuce]

Your opinion. My opinion is that he's the worst President in my lifetime, hands down.

Correct, Trump is the worst president in your lifetime, hands down.

 

[Rawley]

Correct, Trump is the worst president in your lifetime, hands down.

Pathetic Deuce.. I expect better from you.

 

[Craig234]

For what it's worth, I'm pretty sure Kennedy and Johnson were not selected by primaries. The big push for binding primaries came when Humphrey was nominated in 1968 after winning zero primaries.

Kennedy got around the traditional backroom selection by choosing to compete in ten primaries. He 'opened the door' to their playing a bigger role. You're right that the biggest change happened after Humphrey was nominated over Eugene McCarthy who had won primaries. Only 38 percent of delegates came from primaries. Both parties then changed that and by 1976 about 3/4 were and it's nearly all now as I understand.

More to the point, I can offer the counter-examples of Lincoln, both Roosevelts, and Eisenhower, who were all selected under the convention system.

How is that a counter-example to my point that before JFK they were selected in those backroom deals (the convention system)?

 

[Paradoxical]

Here's to hoping the Trump fever is wearing off. It was a pandemic worse than Covid.

What does it matter? The left will just turn it's hate and demonization to DeSantis or whoever it is that replaces Trump.

 

[pocket aces]

If Trump had accepted defeat in 2020 and had simply said, "You'll miss me" and said nothing more, I think the GOP would have won big in the midterms and the majority of independents would be clamoring for Trump to be president again. Unfortunately, he decided to push the "election fraud" lie and refused to truly condemn what happened on Jan 6th. Those two things have made him unelectable and a toxic element for Republicans.

Well other than the fact the inflation we see today was mostly caused by him.

 

[Buckeyes85]

Your opinion. My opinion is that he's the worst President in my lifetime, hands down.

The fact you've made this claim "hands down" less than halfway thru his first term demonstrates your total lack of objectivity.

And why am I certain prior to Biden, the worst president in your lifetime was the last democrat president, and prior to that the worst president ever was the prior democrat, and so on?

 

[vanceen]

Kennedy got around the traditional backroom selection by choosing to compete in ten primaries. He 'opened the door' to their playing a bigger role. You're right that the biggest change happened after Humphrey was nominated over Eugene McCarthy who had won primaries. Only 38 percent of delegates came from primaries. Both parties then changed that and by 1976 about 3/4 were and it's nearly all now as I understand.



How is that a counter-example to my point that before JFK they were selected in those backroom deals (the convention system)?

It's a counter-example in that excellent Presidents (as good as JFK or LBJ) came through the convention system. I don't think it's fair to equate conventions with backroom deals, although there was undoubtedly some of that going on. And there still is some of that going on.

 

[Craig234]

It's a counter-example in that excellent Presidents (as good as JFK or LBJ) came through the convention system. I don't think it's fair to equate conventions with backroom deals, although there was undoubtedly some of that going on. And there still is some of that going on.

JFK wasn't going to get the nomination likely under just the convention system. Just as McCarthy didn't. What was the convention system except backroom deals driving the choice?

 

[Rawley]

The fact you've made this claim "hands down" less than halfway thru his first term demonstrates your total lack of objectivity.

First two years have been an unmitigated disaster. And the buffoon has already promised he's not going to change a thing in the next two years ...

And why am I certain prior to Biden, the worst president in your lifetime was the last democrat president, and prior to that the worst president ever was the prior democrat, and so on?

Nope. It was actually W then Carter.