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The threat to free speech in Canada.

A nice dream? Please, don't patronize me, as if any of what you're saying is based in reality. I have miles of patience for differing opinions, but absolutely zero for people who would try to make us into the gong show that America is. I'm too much of a patriot to tolerate that.

In the meantime, in this course of this conversation, you have sold us out to terrorists by helping them spread their irrational message of fear, and you sold out our national identity by suggesting that nothing more than "like Americans". There is NOTHING happening in Canada today to justify that. I'd rather have a ten thousand Muslims going about their lives in this country, contributing to our culture, not to mention our tax base, than one of you alt-right conservatives doing your best to make us less than we are now. Why do you hate Canada so much?

I say this without animosity or vexation, primarily because, like the "great Muslim threat", you have also vastly exaggerated "the great Conservative wave". Ford won in Ontario because Wynne was garbage, and the NDP are the NDP. There was no one else to vote for, and fiscal conservatism is needed in Ontario right now. Yes, there was an significant element of populism, but that didn't win him the election, it merely won him party leadership. Most people were voting for lower hydro, not because they're Islamophobic cry babies. I actually like conservative provincial governments - the overreach on the sex ed thing is an exception, usually morality and cultural decisions are made at the Federal level.

Speaking of the federal level, now that the right is also fracturing, I'd say you're doing a lot of chicken counting in the egg aisle of the grocery store. Scheer learned nothing from Harper's disgraceful ass whooping, and no one will give the country to the NDP, so get used to seeing Pixie Dust's smiling face. It might not be the face you, or even I, am particularly happy with, but it's a hell of a lot better than turning the country over to a bunch of Trumpster wannabes. **** that, no thank you.

Hmmm...I would have thought questioning my patriotism, beneath you Nate. Guess I was wrong.

OK, if you wanna play "hardball", let's play.

That Bastard who opened fire on Danforth came from a family of ISES sympathizers and criminals. THAT is your new tax base Nate.
People who absolutely refuse to adopt Canadian culture when they come here. People who actually want to alter Canada. Honor killings, ramming trucks into police, opening fire on Danforth. Ya...the "news" doesn't like to report the real news but...
https://www.frontpagemag.com/fpm/265366/muslim-murder-spree-canadas-capital-daniel-greenfield
Why the hell do you think central and eastern Europe is closing its boarders to these people?

You may not like the idea that Canada and the USA have more in common than we do differences, but it happens to be true.
Sheerer doesn't have to do anything because Pixey-Dust is destroying the Liberal brand all on his lonesome.

Finally...you need to get over calling anyone with a nationalistic bent, things like "Trumpster".
That's akin to fake news. Meaningless sound-bytes that accomplish nothing but to expose your own lack of understanding, and steel the right even further...to the right.
 
Hmmm...I would have thought questioning my patriotism, beneath you Nate. Guess I was wrong.

OK, if you wanna play "hardball", let's play.

That Bastard who opened fire on Danforth came from a family of ISES sympathizers and criminals. THAT is your new tax base Nate.
People who absolutely refuse to adopt Canadian culture when they come here. People who actually want to alter Canada. Honor killings, ramming trucks into police, opening fire on Danforth. Ya...the "news" doesn't like to report the real news but...
https://www.frontpagemag.com/fpm/265366/muslim-murder-spree-canadas-capital-daniel-greenfield
Why the hell do you think central and eastern Europe is closing its boarders to these people?

You may not like the idea that Canada and the USA have more in common than we do differences, but it happens to be true.
Sheerer doesn't have to do anything because Pixey-Dust is destroying the Liberal brand all on his lonesome.

Finally...you need to get over calling anyone with a nationalistic bent, things like "Trumpster".
That's akin to fake news. Meaningless sound-bytes that accomplish nothing but to expose your own lack of understanding, and steel the right even further...to the right.


Lol...you talk to me about "#FakeNews", but don't like being called a Trumpster. Ok. I think I understand just fine. Speak Canadian.

Also, your stories about this guy or that guy are inconsequential statistically. Pointing to the Danforth killer and suggesting it represents all, or even a statistically significant number of Muslims in Canada instantly robs you of any credibility on this topic.

And I don't read any taint scrapings from "Frontpage Magazine".

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/frontpage-magazine/

There's nothing left for us to talk about on this one. I reject everything you are saying COMPLETELY.
 
Lol...you talk to me about "#FakeNews", but don't like being called a Trumpster. Ok. I think I understand just fine. Speak Canadian.

Also, your stories about this guy or that guy are inconsequential statistically. Pointing to the Danforth killer and suggesting it represents all, or even a statistically significant number of Muslims in Canada instantly robs you of any credibility on this topic.

And I don't read any taint scrapings from "Frontpage Magazine".

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/frontpage-magazine/

There's nothing left for us to talk about on this one. I reject everything you are saying COMPLETELY.

Why should I give a **** what you think? You wanna belittle the deaths of numerous kids and adults in Canada...bully for you.
Next federal election though...the tables will turn.
Enjoy that...
 
Why should I give a **** what you think? You wanna belittle the deaths of numerous kids and adults in Canada...bully for you.
Next federal election though...the tables will turn.
Enjoy that...

Oh please...you belittle their deaths by exploiting them to spread your hate. Numerous. How, many, Buzz? Do you even know? Or are they just talking points for you to justify your unjustifiable ideology?

We'll see what happens. My guess is it'll be the same as last time...where the small minded, hate filled, anti Canadian, alt-right American wannabes get told, once again, to sit down and shut the **** up. And if I'm wrong, which hopefully I am not, then there's no point in me getting upset, as it means Canada is dead already. :shrug:
 
Oh please...you belittle their deaths by exploiting them to spread your hate. Numerous. How, many, Buzz? Do you even know? Or are they just talking points for you to justify your unjustifiable ideology?
Man you're just full of ugliness today, aren't ya Nate.
Danforth - 2 dead ages 10 and 18. 13 more injured. NOTE: None of the victims were POCs.
Edmonton - Abdulahi Hasan Sharif, 30, has been charged with five counts of attempted murder INCLUDING the assault of a cop.
Ottawa - Michael Zehaf-Bibeau fatally shot Corporal Nathan Cirillo, a Canadian soldier on ceremonial sentry duty.
Toronto - Rehab Dughmosh attacks people with golf club and knife
And I haven't even touched on honor killings yet. These are deaths and injuries of people that should not have happened.
Do you figure that ugliness justifies some response? I sure do. But hey...its only a handful of people so...no harm done right?

We'll see what happens. My guess is it'll be the same as last time...where the small minded, hate filled, anti Canadian, alt-right American wannabes get told, once again, to sit down and shut the **** up. And if I'm wrong, which hopefully I am not, then there's no point in me getting upset, as it means Canada is dead already. :shrug:
Don't bet money on it Nate. The more you call people like me "small minded, hate filled, anti Canadian, alt-right American wannabes", the stronger we get.
Perhaps its not me who should consider moving, but you? To Germany. But don't take your wife or daughters...or any females for that matter.
 
Man you're just full of ugliness today, aren't ya Nate.
Danforth - 2 dead ages 10 and 18. 13 more injured. NOTE: None of the victims were POCs.
Edmonton - Abdulahi Hasan Sharif, 30, has been charged with five counts of attempted murder INCLUDING the assault of a cop.
Ottawa - Michael Zehaf-Bibeau fatally shot Corporal Nathan Cirillo, a Canadian soldier on ceremonial sentry duty.
Toronto - Rehab Dughmosh attacks people with golf club and knife
And I haven't even touched on honor killings yet. These are deaths and injuries of people that should not have happened.
Do you figure that ugliness justifies some response? I sure do. But hey...its only a handful of people so...no harm done right?


Don't bet money on it Nate. The more you call people like me "small minded, hate filled, anti Canadian, alt-right American wannabes", the stronger we get.
Perhaps its not me who should consider moving, but you? To Germany. But don't take your wife or daughters...or any females for that matter.

I'm asking for a number. What is the number of Canadians killed by Muslims, and how many other demographics must we turf that have killed more? Spoiler alert, there will almost no one left. You've brought up four incidents to justify your attitude. I am not saying any of these things were good - they were not, and they were handled under our laws, as are all other crimes, which also are not good. But let's not lose our damn minds here.

Here's the problem, Buzz, you don't have the numbers on your side. You just don't. Your ideology is a fabrication, and you're just selling snake oil. I'm putting my money on Canada not being stupid enough to buy it. I could be wrong...sure. People have gone crazy before. But it didn't work when Harper tried it, I'm hoping it doesn't work when Scheer does...because he will.

And you're the last person who should be accusing anyone of being "full of ugliness". I've seldom met someone so dedicated to ugliness, and even less often up here. It must be a horrible thing to hate so much that you would ignore logic, math, and any sort of reasonable analysis in order to say the things you are saying. The vast majority of Canadians will benefit exponentially more from Muslim Canadians than they will ever be hurt by them.

Basically, if you don't like the labels, don't be the labels. Your strength is the result of an echo chamber with great acoustics. We'll see what happens when Canadians vote.
 
I'm asking for a number. What is the number of Canadians killed by Muslims, and how many other demographics must we turf that have killed more? Spoiler alert, there will almost no one left. You've brought up four incidents to justify your attitude. I am not saying any of these things were good - they were not, and they were handled under our laws, as are all other crimes, which also are not good. But let's not lose our damn minds here.
I don't know the numbers and don't have time to go wading through the internet for them. 'nough said that its 100% more then would be dead had these people not been here. That means that 10 yr old little girl would still be alive today.

Here's the problem, Buzz, you don't have the numbers on your side. You just don't. Your ideology is a fabrication, and you're just selling snake oil. I'm putting my money on Canada not being stupid enough to buy it. I could be wrong...sure. People have gone crazy before. But it didn't work when Harper tried it, I'm hoping it doesn't work when Scheer does...because he will.
We will see. I'm fairly confident though. I mean let's face it. Pixey-Dust is an embarrassment.

And you're the last person who should be accusing anyone of being "full of ugliness". I've seldom met someone so dedicated to ugliness, and even less often up here. It must be a horrible thing to hate so much that you would ignore logic, math, and any sort of reasonable analysis in order to say the things you are saying. The vast majority of Canadians will benefit exponentially more from Muslim Canadians than they will ever be hurt by them.
I'm dedicated to protecting Canada. You forget...conveniently of course...that I don't like any of the religions and don't base anything on race. But do you think your soft logic and odd notion of math...as if math has anything to do with it...means anything to the families affected by this scourge?You profess to have a big heart, yet you discount murders of kids...with ****ing math! That is disgusting. Muslim Canadians need to be CANADIANS FIRST! Those that are, I welcome. Those that are not...need to leave.
Basically, if you don't like the labels, don't be the labels. Your strength is the result of an echo chamber with great acoustics. We'll see what happens when Canadians vote.
My strength comes from a proper upbringing. One that taught me to stand up to murderers. One that taught me an appreciation for Canada in all its natural beauty. One that cannot accept a group of people who announce they are coming to change my beloved homeland.
 
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I don't know the numbers and don't have time to go wading through the internet for them. 'nough said that its 100% more then would be dead had these people not been here. That means that 10 yr old little girl would still be alive today.


We will see. I'm fairly confident though. I mean let's face it. Pixey-Dust is an embarrassment.


I'm dedicated to protecting Canada. You forget...conveniently of course...that I don't like any of the religions and don't base anything on race. But do you think your soft logic and odd notion of math...as if math has anything to do with it...means anything to the families affected by this scourge?You profess to have a big heart, yet you discount murders of kids...with ****ing math! That is disgusting. Muslim Canadians need to be CANADIANS FIRST! Those that are, I welcome. Those that are not...need to leave.

My strength comes from a proper upbringing. One that taught me to stand up to murderers. One that taught me an appreciation for Canada in all its natural beauty. One that cannot accept a group of people who announce they are coming to change my beloved homeland.

Every group that has come here, from the numerous places we have had immigration from, has changed this place. Ask the indigenous folks.

The problem we're having here is your generalization. If you want to talk about tougher laws on criminal activity in this country, I'm with you. If you want to ensure that people are as safe as humanly possible, I'm with you. But just like I don't want to be generalized based on the actions of the worst of the various demographics I belong to, so too am I committed to not doing the same to other people. It's not fair, it's not good, it's not smart.

Canada has always been a mosaic, vs. a melting pot. That's your beloved country. So far the folks seem most interested in changing our country are alt-right, chicken **** conservative asshats. **** them. We're better than that.

And if your stunted logic makes you think that I "discount murders", let me correct you there as well. Every death is tragic. Every criminal that engages in the kind of behavior you're referencing is a piece of ****, and I hope they get the book thrown at them, regardless of what demographic they come from.

But that's not what we're talking about, because you refuse to. Instead, you want to go after everyone that looks like those very few criminals within a specific demographic. That's what we are talking about. The demonization of COMPLETELY INNOCENT PEOPLE, who only are granted some kind of magical pass if they conform to what YOU decide is right.... Tell me, Buzz, exactly how Canadian should an immigrant be before you are willing to accept them? Is there a test, beyond the citizenship test, that they should pass? How do they learn what you think is appropriate, since apparently that's all that matters? This has nothing to do with the handful of deaths you want to inflate with vague references and sentences like "and that doesn't even include {fill in the blank}"...which always sound more titillating than providing actual numbers, which all tend to take the wind out of the fear mongers' sails. That's why numbers are important here, Buzz. Not to discount the deaths of people, but to point out when people are exploiting those deaths to enter into the bull**** market.

At this point I'm annoyed that you think so poorly of my intelligence, to believe that I'd buy any of this. You wanna talk, let's talk. But leave the emotional BS out of it, as it's not working. Make a case, a real, logical case, and we'll work through it. But stop force feeding me nonsense, you've given me enough.
 
Buzz62:

Having read your posts and your extended conversation with Nate, I have some questions for you. This is not an interrogation and although my questions may seem loaded by my Canadian biases they are actually being asked to better understand where you're coming from politically and why you want the things you are advocating for.

What is wrong, in your opinion, with processing, vetting and if warranted accepting refugees and asylum seekers who cross our borders surreptitiously, when many such refugees have had a life-experience which has made them very, very frightened of the arms of the state and its agents of the law? So, they snuck across a border and did not immediately bring themselves to report at a Canadian Port of Entry in order to officially apply for such status. So what? If due to your previous life-experience in your native land you lived in fear of the state and its organs, then it seems natural and logical that you would avoid interacting with any state apparatus as often as you could. Those habits do not quickly change when one walks across an invisible frontier into a foreign and alien land. Why do you want to round these folks up and summarily mass-deport them back to states which will likely persecute them and may even kill them?

Free speech comes with responsibilities but few in political fora like this ever demand and campaign for responsible speech. Why is that, I wonder? Societies are fragile things and can be easily damaged or up-ended and broken by irresponsible speech uttered by charismatic people with receptive audiences. Do you really want to risk the POGG (peace, order and good governance) which we usually enjoy in Canada in order to remake Canada into America's image? That is what you seem to be advocating here, if I understand your posts to date.

Why do you believe that Canada should either actively or, by inaction, passively clone itself into a simulacrum of the USA, especially at a time when the USA is arguably the most polarised, divided and viciously self-predatory that it has been in generations? Why should Canada copy that presently dysfunctional template onto itself and become, like the present-day USA, a truely unhappy and divided state which is just short of being at war with itself? America is a great country. But greatness is not the same as goodness. Canada is a good country (for the most part) and maintaining that goodness requires work, restraint and responsibility from all its inhabitants, not freedoms and rights for every person to disrupt the society and alarm or polarise their neighbours on a whim or out of some extreme flavour of political conviction. So why embrace a nearly absolute "right to freedom of speech" which risks dividing and fracturing a nation state rather than applying the more responsible standard of a "freedom of speech" (as we in Canada have now) which can be limited into responsible speech in accordance with the rule of law, when things begin to spiral out of control societally? I am baffled at the unrestrained desire for near absolute rights without the acceptance of responsibility for exercising those rights responsibly. You might as well hand guns to toddlers in their day cares and start the Darwinian process of natural selection off early because irresponsible free speech is as deadly to a society in the long run as a gun is to a group of toddlers. It just takes a few irresponsible speakers motivated by greed, hate or xenophobia and who are charismatic and eloquent enough to thoroughly divide and wreck a peaceful society and to turn it against itself.

Looking forward to your answers if you choose to respond.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
 
I do not see Canada losing its free speech.

Im not an expert on Canadian law, but it seems to me if 'rights' can be changed by simple legislation, that is a problem with Canadian law.

In the states no right is absolute, but changing the right or rescinding the right takes a far more scrutinous process than simple legislation.
 
Im not an expert on Canadian law, but it seems to me if 'rights' can be changed by simple legislation, that is a problem with Canadian law.

In the states no right is absolute, but changing the right or rescinding the right takes a far more scrutinous process than simple legislation.

:thinking
 
Free speech has never stood for "say whatever you want with no punishment" this is only limited to the government forbidding you from saying something, your fellow citizen is quite capable of giving consequences or censoring you though.
 
Im not an expert on Canadian law, but it seems to me if 'rights' can be changed by simple legislation, that is a problem with Canadian law.

In the states no right is absolute, but changing the right or rescinding the right takes a far more scrutinous process than simple legislation.

We have the right to freedom of expression in our Charter of Rights and Freedoms as part of our constitution. It is up to the courts to decide if a law violates that, however we have a clause of reasonable limitations, again for the courts to decide.
 
Yes they came, they bought land, learned the language, and worked. Their kids were more Canadian than whatever their parents were. Their grandchildren likely didn't even speak the native language of their ancestors. That's exactly how it happened in my family, as well as most I've observed.

Identity politics is not a good way to carry on...I agree. But it's hard to not do so, when some identities tell you they're coming, come, and do exactly what they said when they announced they were coming. Its a risk to our nation that I do not think is wise to take. Especially if the only real benefit is that we get more tax money. As far as I can tell, these people are costing the tax payer.

Ya we tell ourselves that Canada is multi-cultural but...in practice it doesn't work very well. In practice the migrants tend to live in close quarters (China Town, Little Italy) and the kids begin to move away. They adopt the cultural norms of Canada and move along. By and large, these immigrants have come here through legal channels. And while there were real exoduses from places like Ireland and Central Europe, we had not just finished blowing the **** outta their homelands. The cultures of these migrants were similar to the existing culture of the nation at the time. Consider this; Your home was blown up by a Canadian "peace keeping mission" and you watched your brother die. You have no place to go, but Canada's PM announces that refugees should feel free to come here.
Canada's merit-based immigration policies, help to ensure the quality of people moving into Canada. That is a good thing. And I am not gonna let you drag me into that asinine debate about "numbers". ONE is too many. Bottom line.

Agreed. All criminals need to pay for their transgressions. And because we've seen already that some of these imams actually teach and encourage jihad, I say if we have identified a risk, and have the power to mitigate the risk, that we bloody well better begin mitigating.

I'm not like you Nate. I don't get excited about the idea of a diverse Canada. Especially when its my culture and society being told to move over and make room. No man...this is Canada. Be Canadian or be somewhere else. Don't come to Canada, and hope to bring your laws, any of your customs that happen to be either illegal or just socially unacceptable. In short...I like Canada just fine as it is. I don't want the sort of change you are talking about.

I have made my case. I don't give a rat's ass what colour anyone is...unless they're green...and I'm not trying to insult you. I don't care about "mosaics" or colour or even what gawd a human chooses to kneel to. I care about rationality, legality and safety.
 
I do not see Canada losing its free speech.

Yeah, we've heard these scare tactics before. It turns out it's always overblown. If you want to hear a really good explanation of Canada's current hate speech laws, presented in an entertaining manner, check this out.

The video was made in response to Ken Ham's AiG News (creationist) , when they tried to say if you disagreed with someone's gender expression, you could be thrown in jail. A law student does the breakdown of the actual law.



I suspect this current "threat" to our free speech is more of the same.
 
Yeah, we've heard these scare tactics before. It turns out it's always overblown. If you want to hear a really good explanation of Canada's current hate speech laws, presented in an entertaining manner, check this out.

The video was made in response to Ken Ham's AiG News (creationist) , when they tried to say if you disagreed with someone's gender expression, you could be thrown in jail. A law student does the breakdown of the actual law.



I suspect this current "threat" to our free speech is more of the same.


And your point is?
 
And your point is?

I thought you might be interested in seeing that, especially the explanation of our free speech laws, which I thought was very well done. My apologies if you weren't.
 
Free speech has never stood for "say whatever you want with no punishment".....

What? That is the very definition of free speech (and yes, I'm excluding all the usual incitement to commit violence and yelling "fire" in a theater examples).
 
I'm asking for a number. What is the number of Canadians killed by Muslims...

The death toll from Islamic violence is NOT the point. It's the effect it has on our way of life. A good body count is just a bonus to them. For example, Richard Reid (the shoe not-quite-a-bomber) killed exactly zero people, yet he changed airport screening procedures for the whole world. Another example - Calgary is considering a bid for the 2026 winter Olympics, and one of the cost estimates is 1 billion dollars for security. And we all know from whom said security is protecting us, and it ain't the Hutterites. Need another example - A Muslim (with an ISIS flag in his car) ran down an Edmonton police officer, got out of his car and stabbed the officer, and then drove down a sidewalk striking 4 people. Now Edmonton has of course beefed up security, and that's not free.

So, forget counting bodies, and start counting the ways Islamic terrorism has changed the world.
 
We have the right to freedom of expression in our Charter of Rights and Freedoms as part of our constitution. It is up to the courts to decide if a law violates that, however we have a clause of reasonable limitations, again for the courts to decide.

The main question I have is will the truth be a defense against being charged with "hate" speech? For example, the Qur'an has at least 3 verses that explicitly says a Mujaheed can rape his female captives. Hadiths back that up. Mohamed did it. After the Liberals pass their coming blasphemy law (yes, it's coming), will I be able to quote those verses and hadiths without running afoul of the law?
 
I hate to rain on everybody's parade here but there is no absolute right to free speech in Canada and there never was. Freedom of speech under Canadian law is not a right. It is a freedom and can be limited or punished by courts, tribunals, provincial assemblies and the Federal government. This has been implicitly true since before 1867 and has been explicitly true since the Constitutional Act of 1982 laid out the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. All Canadians should read sections 1-15 and section 33 of the charter. There they will learn how few rights they really have and how the freedoms described in the charter offer far less protection than rights.

So things like Bill-16 are just administrative window dressing and tidying up the law codes but are not really new law. The real threat to free speech does not come from such federal legislation since the right never existed in the first place. The real threat rather comes from provincial bodies like the human rights commissions in several provinces which are making dubious decisions which create a jurisprudence for limiting public speech or worse still compelling certain types of public speech in their jurisdictions.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
 
The main question I have is will the truth be a defense against being charged with "hate" speech? For example, the Qur'an has at least 3 verses that explicitly says a Mujaheed can rape his female captives. Hadiths back that up. Mohamed did it. After the Liberals pass their coming blasphemy law (yes, it's coming), will I be able to quote those verses and hadiths without running afoul of the law?

The bible is filled with very similar things.

Do you have these hadiths? DO you have proof of this blasphemy law beyond your conspiracy theories?
 
The bible is filled with very similar things.

Do you have these hadiths? DO you have proof of this blasphemy law beyond your conspiracy theories?

The bible. What a surprise deflection.
 
The death toll from Islamic violence is NOT the point. It's the effect it has on our way of life. A good body count is just a bonus to them. For example, Richard Reid (the shoe not-quite-a-bomber) killed exactly zero people, yet he changed airport screening procedures for the whole world. Another example - Calgary is considering a bid for the 2026 winter Olympics, and one of the cost estimates is 1 billion dollars for security. And we all know from whom said security is protecting us, and it ain't the Hutterites. Need another example - A Muslim (with an ISIS flag in his car) ran down an Edmonton police officer, got out of his car and stabbed the officer, and then drove down a sidewalk striking 4 people. Now Edmonton has of course beefed up security, and that's not free.

So, forget counting bodies, and start counting the ways Islamic terrorism has changed the world.

Only because people like you let it.
 
Only because people like you let it.

True. The airport regulations that I foisted on the entire world did upset a few people, but I told them to get over it. World-wide spending in the billions for security against Islamic terrorists was a harder sell, but eventually the world leaders who follow my lead saw it my way. I've been so busy.
 
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