The threat to free speech in Canada.

[Kal'Stang]

With the exception of a few posts on the first page pretty much every other post since then in this thread has yet to talk about the actual thread topic. It just devolved into what and how many of those that follow Islam does or doesn't to. Reading the OP and I see that it is about Free Speech being curtailed by a law that criminalizes words that are critical of Islam. And that's not the only law that I have seen from Canada that interferes with Free Speech.



It doesn't matter whether Islam actually does or does not do the things that has been argued about in this thread. It is about the ability to freely criticize. Whether its correct or not is irrelevant. Whether its "hate speech" or not is irrelevant. What matters in this thread is whether or not Free Speech is being interfered with.

Is it? Yes or no? If "yes"...why? If "no"...why?

 

[Buzz62]

Actually, according to the treaty we signed regarding refugees it is not as long as they make their way to a point of entry afterwards in a timely manner.

A timely manner is immediate to me. What is it to you?
And what treaty are you talking about? If it really says that, it needs to be changed.

 

[Carjosse]

A timely manner is immediate to me. What is it to you?
And what treaty are you talking about? If it really says that, it needs to be changed.

Within 24 hours.

The UN treaty on refugees. The treaty that governs how the whole refugee thing works.

 

[OlNate]

:lol:
I'm a passionate guy. But I disagree that it robs my of credibility. Only people who have no good argument go directly for the race card. And you watch, they will. I don't give a rat's-ass what colour a person is, or what gawd they kneel for. I don't like people who think they are entitled to skirt the laws and culture of my home. If someone want to come to Canada, cross legally, go through the legal refugee program...like my own wife did...and become a Canadian.


Well, first of all, I want Pixey-Dust put out to pasture. He lost me completely when he began with his invitations to all the world's refugees. This is not a haven for the dregs of Haiti. One cannot just walk into Canada and stay. That's illegal and these people should not even get a bloody refugee hearing. They're already blessed criminals. Trump is trying to deal with these lost people by enabling the US immigration laws. Our leadership needs to also utilize our existing immigration laws. Especially the one that says, if you sneak into this country, instead of crossing at a proper boarder crossing, you are summarily deported. As they have done to thousands of European people who have tried to sneak into Canada, on limited visitors visas over the years.


A force for good? Ya I'll agree that we use our military for right thing...usually. Although I figure we kind-o missed the target in Afghanistan. We had no business being there. However...Canada has been in on most of the US Empire building all along. South America, Eastern Europe after the fall of the Soviet Union, for instance. Canada had huge financial stakes in countless "****-hole" countries, right along side the World Bank and the IMF. Ya...we're good at hiding our dirty laundry. Mostly because when compared to our neighbors to the direct south of us...the ones we look and act like...Canada's "small potatoes". But don't fool yourself. Canada has quite a health helping of abusive sludge under our national fingernails.

This is my home and my nation. I like it and I want it to remain what it is. And I don't want to continue waking up to find some insane Arab has opened fire 2 blocks from my family's home. We have enough nutty ****ers on our own. We don't need Pixey Dust making it easy for more insane people to wonder in.

Buzz...friend. If you don't stop lying, we're going to have to conclude our conversation. "Pixey Dust" isn't "making it easy for more insane people to wonder in". That's absolute bull****, unless you can prove to me where anything he has said strays at all from our existing immigration policy. I've already asked you to do this, and you haven't been able to. Show a little respect.

Also, I haven't brought up "the race card" once in this conversation, but when you double down to make comments like "I don't want to continue waking up to find some insane Arab has opened fire 2 blocks from my family's home.", you have to understand that it's not far off. As the expression goes, you can't suck and blow at the same time...and in this case, you can't say "I don't give a rat's-ass what colour a person is, or what gawd they kneel for.", and then go on to make statements like that. That's what robs you of your credibility. Which is it? Are you a tolerant, non racist person, or do you hate Arabs so much that you try to convince anyone that what you're talking about is anything more than a major outlier? I want to give you the benefit of the doubt, but you're picking your words and making inaccurate generalizations. Why would you, an otherwise intelligent person, do that? You know the statistics.

Canada has certainly had it's share of blemishes. That's true. Many of them have taken place because of our loyalty to sometimes less than noble allies, but many of them we own all on to ourselves. But in a world where no one is perfect, we are looked at as one of the good guys, because of our peacekeeping efforts, our willingness to extend a helping hand in the form of foreign aide, the important times where we have taken as stand and said no to our allies, our environmental initiatives, and yes, our immigration policy and generosity to refugees. There's a reason a lot of Americans have put Canadian flag patches on their luggage when traveling through the world...hehe...

What you're advocating for is a complete departure from what makes us us, and therefore, as a patriot, I reject your philosophy completely...despite still believing we'd have fun talking over a beer.

 

[OlNate]

Hmmm...you believe that?

You don't? :lol:

Stephen Harper was rushed into broom closet during Ottawa shooting | The Chronicle Herald

C'mon...no one's perfect, I would have probably run too...but let's not act like he was John Wayne. My memory goes back further than one prime minister, if you wanna get into a tit for tat competition, as to who embarrassed us worse, I'm happy to oblige, since I know I'll win.

 

[Buzz62]

Buzz62:

I already have taken in refugees, although not any Syrians, as part of a series of five-family sponsorships through a local Unitarian Church sponsorship programme. One family of four was from Guatemala and another family of four was a mixed family from Costa Rica and Honduras. Both families stayed for about a month each before being settled in local rentals. They were great folks and are doing well these days. They were most certainly not "refuse".

Interesting. And did your refugees wonder across the boarder? Or did your church make the arrangements?

What you say was not "virtue signalling" (whatever that means) but was rather an expression of disgust with the idea that a fellow Canadian would refer to his/her fellow human beings as "refuse" in order to dehumanise them and thus make it seem morally easier to abuse them when they come here to seek asylum and a better life. That was "disgust signalling" and the rest was just a rather slogan-ridden reminder that Canada was and still is a nation of voluntary immigrants, refugees and forced migrants.

I'm sorry but some people are "refuse". For instance, that person who opened fire on The Danforth here about a month ago.
As I have said, proper refugees come through official channels at a boarder crossing. Those that sneak in and then claim refugee status? Not so much...

As for debating First Nations in Canada, that is off-topic and can be done on another thread at another time. I won't hijack this thread to cater to your seeming desire to have an argument over an unrelated tangent.

Evilroddy.

Agreed. Its off topic. I trust you won't mention this again in this thread.

 

[Chagos]

~.......................... And did your refugees wonder across the boarder? ...............~

.

shouldn't that read as wondering about the boarder? And which boarder and boarded where and what's there to wonder about. Whether in board and breakfast the food is bareable? As in unclothing it?

Yeah I know, speelchuckers only show up typos, not that correct words used are nonsense when applied in this manner.

But I sure hope that you'll never make it a condition for those applying for asylum that they first can handle English.

 

[Evilroddy]

With the exception of a few posts on the first page pretty much every other post since then in this thread has yet to talk about the actual thread topic. It just devolved into what and how many of those that follow Islam does or doesn't to. Reading the OP and I see that it is about Free Speech being curtailed by a law that criminalizes words that are critical of Islam. And that's not the only law that I have seen from Canada that interferes with Free Speech.



It doesn't matter whether Islam actually does or does not do the things that has been argued about in this thread. It is about the ability to freely criticize. Whether its correct or not is irrelevant. Whether its "hate speech" or not is irrelevant. What matters in this thread is whether or not Free Speech is being interfered with.

Is it? Yes or no? If "yes"...why? If "no"...why?

Kal'Stang:

The guiding principle of Canadian society and governance for 151 years of the country's existence has been,"Peace, Order and Good Governance" (POGG). This is a collective principle which limits the scope of individual rights and freedoms. If irresponsible free speech threatens the peace (death threats, extortion, incitement to violence, etc.) or threatens public order (inciting riots, petitioning members of the armed forces to mutiny, hate speech which causes public strife), then those types of speech are suppressed in Canada and always have been. Speech in Canada is a freedom, not a right and certainly not an absolute right. Thus freedom of speech is able to be limited, delayed or outright abridged by the parliaments of the Federal and provincial governments in Canada or by the courts in accordance with the Rule of Law. If the governments or the courts abuse this power then Canada uses political means to punish and discipline the abusing government or court rather than solely relying on our legal system to protect us from ourselves.

Where things get tricky is the Good Governance end of the principle. Criticism (responsible criticism) of the government is usually a useful thing and is usually a socially positive activity. But on occasions the Federal and provincial governments attempt to use the force of law to muzzle their critics or to intimidate them into silence. Then it is up to the body politic and the electorate to use political means to punish and discipline such over-reaching governments either through elections or more rarely by going to "the out of doors" in public protests, occupations of public institutions, civil disobedience and very rarely public violence. Canadians do not have a "cult of the constitution" like Americans do. We only gained a Bill of Rights in the 1960's and a formal home-grown written constitution in the 1980's. Thus we protect our rights and freedoms by political action rather than relying on lawyers and jurists to do it for us. It can be disruptive to both peace and order at times but to date it has generally worked. Canadians have burned down their own government buildings in the past during the most extreme expressions of dissatisfaction with their governments' most egregious missteps but generally it has been a peaceful and orderly process where our considerable number of freedoms and our very few rights have been respected.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.

 

[stevecanuck]

Actually, according to the treaty we signed regarding refugees it is not as long as they make their way to a point of entry afterwards in a timely manner.

Correct. Point of Entry. Look up Point of Entry and get back to us.

(Hint: A trail through the woods does NOT qualify.)

 

[Buzz62]

shouldn't that read as wondering about the boarder? And which boarder and boarded where and what's there to wonder about. Whether in board and breakfast the food is bareable? As in unclothing it?

Yeah I know, speelchuckers only show up typos, not that correct words used are nonsense when applied in this manner.

But I sure hope that you'll never make it a condition for those applying for asylum that they first can handle English.

Were it up to me, I round all of them up and send 'em all packing.
And that's exactly where my vote will go in the next election.

 

[Chagos]

Were it up to me, I round all of them up and send 'em all packing.
And that's exactly where my vote will go in the next election.

Good luck with improving your English until then.

 

[OlNate]

With the exception of a few posts on the first page pretty much every other post since then in this thread has yet to talk about the actual thread topic. It just devolved into what and how many of those that follow Islam does or doesn't to. Reading the OP and I see that it is about Free Speech being curtailed by a law that criminalizes words that are critical of Islam. And that's not the only law that I have seen from Canada that interferes with Free Speech.



It doesn't matter whether Islam actually does or does not do the things that has been argued about in this thread. It is about the ability to freely criticize. Whether its correct or not is irrelevant. Whether its "hate speech" or not is irrelevant. What matters in this thread is whether or not Free Speech is being interfered with.

Is it? Yes or no? If "yes"...why? If "no"...why?

Our approach to "Free Speech" has always been different. We have standards:

According to Section 1 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, free expression in Canada, like all other Charter rights, is limited by “such reasonable limits prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society.”

The following does a good job of explaining more.

https://www.thestar.com/opinion/com...t-reasonable-limits-on-freedom-of-speech.html

Personally, I'm good with this. I've never seen this used to silence anyone who didn't need silencing. I think if you're the kind of person that enjoys decorum and couth, and doesn't want your country being turned into a ****hole by hateful people, this is a good thing. To a 1A purist, it's probably very off putting, however it's only assholes who are impacted - and even there, only the worst, most hateful kind. As a citizen, I'm happy with that...assholes have too much power and influence in other parts of the world. This only impacts a hand full of people. I hope they hate it so much they move...

 

[OlNate]

Were it up to me, I round all of them up and send 'em all packing.
And that's exactly where my vote will go in the next election.

But you're not a bigot, right? :roll: The key deciding factor for placing your vote is who will get rid of the people you hate? What a waste.

 

[Buzz62]

Good luck with improving your English until then.

Oh my...a spelling error. What will I do?
Maybe I'll correctly fauxpas by voting for more illegals?

No...that would be stupid.

 

[Chagos]

Oh my...a spelling error. What will I do?
Maybe I'll correctly fauxpas by voting for more illegals?

No...that would be stupid.

Grammar error, actually. Followed here by using a noun as a verb.

I wouldn't be surprised if your rejection of immigrants were due to the fact that many of them speak better English than you do.

Well, you won't solve that problem by keeping them out, they'll still speak it better than you do.

Only path for you would be to study your native language (I assume it to be your native language) with greater fervour.

You're welcome.

 

[Buzz62]

But you're not a bigot, right? :roll: The key deciding factor for placing your vote is who will get rid of the people you hate? What a waste.

Not at all Nate. See...I don't believe in turning the other cheek. So when people of any race or society, openly make threats and carry out those threats on my homeland, I believe its time to clean house. I saw what that kid who opened fire on Danforth was, and his family. Plus...most modern liberals are so wrapped up in their efforts to shame and shut up anyone who objects to their fascist ideas, that any candidate who opposes this dictatorial horse manure, gets my vote.

Its time to clean house Nate. The liberal fascists and the refugees need to be shut down immediately. Then...were it up to me...I'd begin a full-scale investigation into the Muslim communities and what they might be teaching their people. Those who just wanna worship in good faith, may do so with pride and freedom. Those who even smell like they support Muslim superiority in Canada...can pack and leave.

That's what its come to for me, I'm afraid. This bull**** has gone way too far for my tastes.

 

[Buzz62]

Grammar error, actually. Followed here by using a noun as a verb.

I wouldn't be surprised if your rejection of immigrants were due to the fact that many of them speak better English than you do.

Well, you won't solve that problem by keeping them out, they'll still speak it better than you do.

Only path for you would be to study your native language (I assume it to be your native language) with greater fervour.

You're welcome.

:lamo
Ya good point...
:lamo

 

[Chagos]

:lamo
Ya good point...
:lamo

I simply knew you'd appreciate it. :mrgreen:

 

[OlNate]

Not at all Nate. See...I don't believe in turning the other cheek. So when people of any race or society, openly make threats and carry out those threats on my homeland, I believe its time to clean house. I saw what that kid who opened fire on Danforth was, and his family. Plus...most modern liberals are so wrapped up in their efforts to shame and shut up anyone who objects to their fascist ideas, that any candidate who opposes this dictatorial horse manure, gets my vote.

Its time to clean house Nate. The liberal fascists and the refugees need to be shut down immediately. Then...were it up to me...I'd begin a full-scale investigation into the Muslim communities and what they might be teaching their people. Those who just wanna worship in good faith, may do so with pride and freedom. Those who even smell like they support Muslim superiority in Canada...can pack and leave.

That's what its come to for me, I'm afraid. This bull**** has gone way too far for my tastes.

Sorry, man, you have lost me. Statistics are against you, Canadian culture and values are against you, the majority of the folks voted for a vastly different direction in the last election...nah, man, no to all of that. I like you, Buzz, but I will vote to oppose this every time. Maybe you have your reasons, we all do, I'm not judging you...but every time you vote, I'll be voting against you.

Which is too bad, really...sometimes we need a conservative government. They have done some important things in the past. But never, so long as this is what they represent, will they get a vote from me, and heaven help us as a country if we find ourselves with our heads so far up our ass as to vote for them for the reasons you are.

 

[Buzz62]

Sorry, man, you have lost me. Statistics are against you, Canadian culture and values are against you, the majority of the folks voted for a vastly different direction in the last election...nah, man, no to all of that. I like you, Buzz, but I will vote to oppose this every time. Maybe you have your reasons, we all do, I'm not judging you...but every time you vote, I'll be voting against you.

Which is too bad, really...sometimes we need a conservative government. They have done some important things in the past. But never, so long as this is what they represent, will they get a vote from me, and heaven help us as a country if we find ourselves with our heads so far up our ass as to vote for them for the reasons you are.

Nate you are free to cast your vote as you please. In fact, I encourage it.
That, my friend, is freedom. Something the Libbie/SJW/PC fascists are trying desperately to curtail.

Rob Ford won a majority in Ontario. I'm betting Quebec and most of the nation will do the same.
I respect your opinion and your right to vote as you will. But when conversations about this issue start up in the wife's pub...and they do regularly...guess what the overwhelming sentiment towards refugees, Islam and Pixey-Dust, is? This is gonna get much worse before it gets any better, I'm afraid. But freedom and the Canadian culture and society our fathers built, is way to precious to squander just so people can say...we're nice people.

 

[OlNate]

Nate you are free to cast your vote as you please. In fact, I encourage it.
That, my friend, is freedom. Something the Libbie/SJW/PC fascists are trying desperately to curtail.

Rob Ford won a majority in Ontario. I'm betting Quebec and most of the nation will do the same.
I respect your opinion and your right to vote as you will. But when conversations about this issue start up in the wife's pub...and they do regularly...guess what the overwhelming sentiment towards refugees, Islam and Pixey-Dust, is? This is gonna get much worse before it gets any better, I'm afraid. But freedom and the Canadian culture and society our fathers built, it way to precious to squander just so people can say...we're nice people.

BS that liberals try to curtail freedom, that's a broken meme, come on, I thought you liked when people take you seriously.

If you want American style "freedom", with all the baggage that entails, I'm sure Trump will accept all the supporters into the country he can get. Just tell them you're immigrating to vote for the GOP when they do your social media cell phone check at the border, I'm sure they'll wave you right in, you're the right colour. You could start your very own Canadian #walkaway movement. Just walk south...

Anyway, bud, good brawl, I guess. I think our next chat needs to be about something you like, though...these hate conversations leave me wondering where my friend Buzz went.

 

[Buzz62]

BS that liberals try to curtail freedom, that's a broken meme, come on, I thought you liked when people take you seriously.

If you want American style "freedom", with all the baggage that entails, I'm sure Trump will accept all the supporters into the country he can get. Just tell them you're immigrating to vote for the GOP when they do your social media cell phone check at the border, I'm sure they'll wave you right in, you're the right colour. You could start your very own Canadian #walkaway movement. Just walk south...

Anyway, bud, good brawl, I guess. I think our next chat needs to be about something you like, though...these hate conversations leave me wondering where my friend Buzz went.

I never went anywhere. I just realized that for many of the SJW crowd...this is war.
And because I happen to like a good scrap...well...you know...

And this has ZERO to do with colour. You know that too. Please don't fall into the same, sound-byte BS that these extremists do.
I'm not going anywhere. Nor is Alberta, Ontario, Quebec, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, etc... There's a counter-wave building Nate, and it's not primarily because of the refugees, although they do find themselves in a precarious position as this wave builds. No Sir. This is about freedom of speech. ALL SPEECH.

And who is it that continually shows up at right wing demonstrations or even to right wing discussions? Who is it that continually brings with them violence and confrontation? Who is it that spits on people and tosses urine-filled balloons and rocks at the police? Who is it, Nate, who passed a law in Ontario that attempts to dictate speech?

Don't think that voicing platitudes and nonsense about any type of relations to Donny-Boy, is gonna shame or discourage any of us. All that is just another reason to put an end to this crap, once and for all. A correction is coming. I welcome it.

 

[OlNate]

I never went anywhere. I just realized that for many of the SJW crowd...this is war.
And because I happen to like a good scrap...well...you know...

And this has ZERO to do with colour. You know that too. Please don't fall into the same, sound-byte BS that these extremists do.
I'm not going anywhere. Nor is Alberta, Ontario, Quebec, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, etc... There's a counter-wave building Nate, and it's not primarily because of the refugees, although they do find themselves in a precarious position as this wave builds. No Sir. This is about freedom of speech. ALL SPEECH.

And who is it that continually shows up at right wing demonstrations or even to right wing discussions? Who is it that continually brings with them violence and confrontation? Who is it that spits on people and tosses urine-filled balloons and rocks at the police? Who is it, Nate, who passed a law in Ontario that attempts to dictate speech?

Don't think that voicing platitudes and nonsense about any type of relations to Donny-Boy, is gonna shame or discourage any of us. All that is just another reason to put an end to this crap, once and for all. A correction is coming. I welcome it.

Canada has always had standards associated with free speech. :shrug: Again, if you want America so badly, go there. Stop trying to make here like there, please.

 

[Buzz62]

Canada has always had standards associated with free speech. :shrug: Again, if you want America so badly, go there. Stop trying to make here like there, please.

Nate...here IS like there. Always has been.
We share common culture (for the most part), common language (for the most part), common concerns.
I know you believe in a gentle and compassionate Canada. And that is commendable. Its a nice dream. Maybe someday when people aren't trying desperately to stifle conversation and opinion. Maybe someday when the religions are marginalized on a global scale. But today...we have issues. We can either face them head-on, or pretend they don't exist.
I notice you won't address the overwhelming evidence of just who, in this battle for ideas, is actually causing the public discourse. Causing the violence. Causing the coming of conservative governments across the board.

 

[OlNate]

Nate...here IS like there. Always has been.
We share common culture (for the most part), common language (for the most part), common concerns.
I know you believe in a gentle and compassionate Canada. And that is commendable. Its a nice dream. Maybe someday when people aren't trying desperately to stifle conversation and opinion. Maybe someday when the religions are marginalized on a global scale. But today...we have issues. We can either face them head-on, or pretend they don't exist.
I notice you won't address the overwhelming evidence of just who, in this battle for ideas, is actually causing the public discourse. Causing the violence. Causing the coming of conservative governments across the board.

A nice dream? Please, don't patronize me, as if any of what you're saying is based in reality. I have miles of patience for differing opinions, but absolutely zero for people who would try to make us into the gong show that America is. I'm too much of a patriot to tolerate that.

In the meantime, in this course of this conversation, you have sold us out to terrorists by helping them spread their irrational message of fear, and you sold out our national identity by suggesting that nothing more than "like Americans". There is NOTHING happening in Canada today to justify that. I'd rather have a ten thousand Muslims going about their lives in this country, contributing to our culture, not to mention our tax base, than one of you alt-right conservatives doing your best to make us less than we are now. Why do you hate Canada so much?

I say this without animosity or vexation, primarily because, like the "great Muslim threat", you have also vastly exaggerated "the great Conservative wave". Ford won in Ontario because Wynne was garbage, and the NDP are the NDP. There was no one else to vote for, and fiscal conservatism is needed in Ontario right now. Yes, there was an significant element of populism, but that didn't win him the election, it merely won him party leadership. Most people were voting for lower hydro, not because they're Islamophobic cry babies. I actually like conservative provincial governments - the overreach on the sex ed thing is an exception, usually morality and cultural decisions are made at the Federal level.

Speaking of the federal level, now that the right is also fracturing, I'd say you're doing a lot of chicken counting in the egg aisle of the grocery store. Scheer learned nothing from Harper's disgraceful ass whooping, and no one will give the country to the NDP, so get used to seeing Pixie Dust's smiling face. It might not be the face you, or even I, am particularly happy with, but it's a hell of a lot better than turning the country over to a bunch of Trumpster wannabes. **** that, no thank you.