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The Stem-Cell Research Debate

Obras said:
Then let them die. We don't need to destroy them. Your argument is dangerously close to saying that you can't keep humans alive forever so why don't we take a few 100 live humans and dissect them in the name of science?

First off, an embryo is no more than a diploid cell mass with the proper map to creating a human stored within. It has none of the characteristics of human life other than the DNA that resides within it. The "death" of an embryo is no more callous than the "death" of all the blood cells that are expelled during menstruation. The embryo is a specialized cell mass that performs a function of reproduction. By the time the baby is born, the original two cells that created the embryo are not even present...as they have long died off or differentiated during the developmental stages of subsequent fetus. To even compare the use of embryonic stem cells to the dissection of complete and living human individuals is lunacy and has no basis save for the sophistic, revisionist and emotional doctrine espoused by the pro life culture of lies and deceit. You people would honestly see human beings die of disease rather than see legitimate and ethical research go on...to save a diploid cell mass with no more awareness or human characteristic than my left testicle, you would allow the death and suffering of real people...hypocrites or morons? take your pick.
 
Obras said:
Then let them die. We don't need to destroy them. Your argument is dangerously close to saying that you can't keep humans alive forever so why don't we take a few 100 live humans and dissect them in the name of science?

So now you are saying that it is ok for them to die, but not to save lives? Do you just hate science? And, if you read one thing that I have wrote, you would not have made such a sadly ignorant statment like the one above. Frozen embryos don't have lives. People do. If you can't tell the difference between embryos and fully formed adult humans, than there must be something seriously wrong with your brain.


Duke
 
Obras said:
Then let them die. We don't need to destroy them.
But letting them die IS to destroy them. Your argument is illogical and doesn't make sense. These are cells grown in a petridish. They will never be implanted anywhere.
Your argument is dangerously close to saying that you can't keep humans alive forever so why don't we take a few 100 live humans and dissect them in the name of science?
What utter nonsense. You are claiming that a lump of 50-100 cells in a tube or a petri-dish are the same as a live, sentient human person.

That's claptrap, that's just anti-abortion revisionist linguistic hyperbole.
 
Obras said:
Then let them die. We don't need to destroy them. Your argument is dangerously close to saying that you can't keep humans alive forever so why don't we take a few 100 live humans and dissect them in the name of science?

This HAS been done. The Nazis and the Japanese performed this sort of thing, and we snapped up their reports for our own use. That why we know how long it takes a person to die in freezing water.

Lest you think the Germans/Japanese hold some sort of monopoly, the U.S. government conducted all sort of experiments that included exposing U.S. military personel to radiation and infectious diseases. We now have that information permanently, and if we could get them to admit it, they would claim those victims were heros in the name of science, even though they didn't live long enough to appreciate it.

It's despicable, but it is part of the world we live in.

Also, morality aside, biological research may well be the next huge technological wave, and we might as well surf it, because we will be left behind otherwise. Would you perfer that only nations in Asia and Europe have applications for this technology? I know you'd rather it never, ever happen, but here on Earth, they are already doing this in Asia, and we'd better get on the ball, becasue they already have a head start on us.
 
Elohssa said:
This HAS been done. The Nazis and the Japanese performed this sort of thing, and we snapped up their reports for our own use. That why we know how long it takes a person to die in freezing water.

Lest you think the Germans/Japanese hold some sort of monopoly, the U.S. government conducted all sort of experiments that included exposing U.S. military personel to radiation and infectious diseases. We now have that information permanently, and if we could get them to admit it, they would claim those victims were heros in the name of science, even though they didn't live long enough to appreciate it.

It's despicable, but it is part of the world we live in.

Also, morality aside, biological research may well be the next huge technological wave, and we might as well surf it, because we will be left behind otherwise. Would you perfer that only nations in Asia and Europe have applications for this technology? I know you'd rather it never, ever happen, but here on Earth, they are already doing this in Asia, and we'd better get on the ball, becasue they already have a head start on us.



This is true. South Korea and other Aisan nations are years ahead of the US in biological research. If the Us does not start using its vast resources in biological advancements, we may lose the edge in the science field.


Duke
 
Duke said:
This is true. South Korea and other Aisan nations are years ahead of the US in biological research. If the Us does not start using its vast resources in biological advancements, we may lose the edge in the science field.

What would really help propel scientific reseach,is if we spent alot less money on armaments, and peddled more cash to fund research.
 
kal-el said:
What would really help propel scientific reseach,is if we spent alot less money on armaments, and peddled more cash to fund research.

Amen to that, my friend. Did you know that the USA spends more money on military than the rest of the world combined?


Duke
 
Duke said:
Amen to that, my friend. Did you know that the USA spends more money on military than the rest of the world combined?


Yes, hence we are the military superpower.We spent last year,an acessof $1 trillion.IMO, this is the biggest scandal on earth and the biggest problem for our future. 1 trillion is 1 billion of billions of money wasted for nothing while scientists have no money to make researches. With only 1 year of this stupid military spending there would be no more 1 million children on earth starving to death, and a cure for AIDS and for cancer would have been found.
 
Did you know, that by percentage of budget, the USA spends the least amount of money on helping Africa and curing AIDS out of all major developed countries?


Duke
 
Duke said:
Did you know, that by percentage of budget, the USA spends the least amount of money on helping Africa and curing AIDS out of all major developed countries?

I wasn't aware. It wouldn't suprise me though.
 
What would really help propel scientific reseach,is if we spent alot less money on armaments, and peddled more cash to fund research.

yeah people keep sayin that we're the leaders in scientific development. Countries like China, India, and South Korea are spending much much more in scientific development than America is. We pride ourselves with top institutions like MIT, CalTech, Berkley, but these institutions are being flooded with Asians, Russians, Indians, or any first-generation kids from immigrant families. Science is losing ground with the greater American population. We need to stop this. China pumps out twice as many engineering grads as we do. And they are all equally capable.

And then we become the laughing stock of the world when we have debates over things like evolution vs. intelligent design, and have teachers telling students that evolution isn't necessarly right and use misrepresented fact and arguments to do so.
 
Obras said:
Then let them die. We don't need to destroy them. Your argument is dangerously close to saying that you can't keep humans alive forever so why don't we take a few 100 live humans and dissect them in the name of science?

What the heck are you smoking, and where can I get some?

People are going to die in horrible ways and/or lead lives full of suffering if the research isn't conducted. Do you care more about embryos which are never going to be implanted into a uterus, let along develop into babies, or people like you and I that have gestated, been born and are living, breathing beings?
 
galenrox said:
I can't believe that anyone could claim to be pro-life and yet support the throwing out of 11,000 embryos just to make sure they're not used to save actual life!

Why might the Church be against this? Think about the lives that would be saved. The Church doesn't want these embryos to be used for life-saving research, even if that is the only thing that can be done with them, even though they will be thrown away if not used. So, the last variable is the lives that are being saved. Stem-cell research has been heralded as a cure to AIDS, by the way.


Duke
 
vergiss said:
What the heck are you smoking, and where can I get some?


Probably that stuff that Navy Pride is smoking. :lol:
 
Duke said:
Did you know, that by percentage of budget, the USA spends the least amount of money on helping Africa and curing AIDS out of all major developed countries?


Duke

And a big SO WHAT? is the correct response.

Some reason why Africa can't help itself? The only thing I know holding Africa back is that Africa is sitting around sticking it's hand out and waiting to be "rescued". Screw 'em.

AIDS research? Why should money be spent curing a disease that's basically contracted on a volunteer basis? Don't screw them!

====

But let's focus on Stem Cell Research...or more specifically, embryonic stem cell research. Two questions arise right out of the chute.

People complain that the government isn't funding it. La-di-da, folks. The federal government doesn't have constitutional authority to fund it. How many of you guys out there wanting the federal government to fund this project have posted complaints about Bush's exploding budget deficit? I suspect there's a strong connection between unconstitutional spending and budget deficits. Ya think?

If the process will be as profitable as so many claim, ...where are the venture capitalists?

Bluntly, government shouldn't be funding medical research.

Moving on to those wee little embryos. Current in vitro fertilization technology seems to be process similar to a female salmon dumping a pile of eggs on the river bottom and the male salmons spews milt indiscriminately in the hopes that a few will get fertilized. How else to explain dozens or more fertilized eggs left over when only one is needed or desired?

A horribly inefficient process. The commercial harvesting of left over embryos for research purposes with create intense economic incentive to create more excess, not less, much the same as the black gooey mess from crude oil refining became the plastics industry.

To my knowledge, no practical application has yet arisen from embryonic stem cells. My knowledge can be out of date. Apprising me and everyone else of any such would certainly be useful. (I'll cruise over later and check out the SCR board under ABORTION later).

And there's that sticky moral dilemma that these embryos are human beings. Okay, they're really really tiny human beings. But what else are they? Now, as has been said, they're gonna get flushed anyway. They're certainly insensate, but does that alter the morality? If ESCR becomes a commercial proposition, won't increased demand lead to deliberate production of embryonic humans for cultivation and harvesting? What do you think the research will lead to, if not that?

I can envision one line of research that requires genetically close stem cells for tissue matching purposes...which leads to cloning. Cloning goes to lots of fun places, but let's just say that cloning is both clearer and cloudier than embryonic stem cell research, depending on what you're looking at, and the moral issues are different, also.

One of the big concerns on ESCR is that aborted fetuses have the potential to provide enormous quantities of partially or fully differentiated stem cells. How could the research be complete if those avenues aren't explored? Are people going to argue that those parts are going to be tossed in the incinerator anyway, why not use them to save lives? You can see, of course, that eventually a line is crossed and "humans" are being used for medical research without their consent.

Since the courts have run away every time an attempt is made to get them to agree on the definition of "human". Actually, Congress abdicated it's job to write the definition, which is why the courts feel they have to run away, but that's politics, not morals or ethics, and food for another thread.

On the whole, embryonic stem cell research opens terrible moral doors, and keeping those doors closed lets other moral problems into the room.

At the same time, it's not like embryonic stem cell research is not going on. It's just not going on in the United States, and it's not being paid for by the US taxpayer. How much of that is in your consideration, and why?
 
Scarecrow Akhbar said:
And a big SO WHAT? is the correct response.

Some reason why Africa can't help itself? The only thing I know holding Africa back is that Africa is sitting around sticking it's hand out and waiting to be "rescued". Screw 'em.

AIDS research? Why should money be spent curing a disease that's basically contracted on a volunteer basis? Don't screw them!


====

But let's focus on Stem Cell Research...or more specifically, embryonic stem cell research. Two questions arise right out of the chute.

People complain that the government isn't funding it. La-di-da, folks. The federal government doesn't have constitutional authority to fund it. How many of you guys out there wanting the federal government to fund this project have posted complaints about Bush's exploding budget deficit? I suspect there's a strong connection between unconstitutional spending and budget deficits. Ya think?

If the process will be as profitable as so many claim, ...where are the venture capitalists?

Bluntly, government shouldn't be funding medical research.

Moving on to those wee little embryos. Current in vitro fertilization technology seems to be process similar to a female salmon dumping a pile of eggs on the river bottom and the male salmons spews milt indiscriminately in the hopes that a few will get fertilized. How else to explain dozens or more fertilized eggs left over when only one is needed or desired?

A horribly inefficient process. The commercial harvesting of left over embryos for research purposes with create intense economic incentive to create more excess, not less, much the same as the black gooey mess from crude oil refining became the plastics industry.

To my knowledge, no practical application has yet arisen from embryonic stem cells. My knowledge can be out of date. Apprising me and everyone else of any such would certainly be useful. (I'll cruise over later and check out the SCR board under ABORTION later).

And there's that sticky moral dilemma that these embryos are human beings. Okay, they're really really tiny human beings. But what else are they? Now, as has been said, they're gonna get flushed anyway. They're certainly insensate, but does that alter the morality? If ESCR becomes a commercial proposition, won't increased demand lead to deliberate production of embryonic humans for cultivation and harvesting? What do you think the research will lead to, if not that?

I can envision one line of research that requires genetically close stem cells for tissue matching purposes...which leads to cloning. Cloning goes to lots of fun places, but let's just say that cloning is both clearer and cloudier than embryonic stem cell research, depending on what you're looking at, and the moral issues are different, also.

One of the big concerns on ESCR is that aborted fetuses have the potential to provide enormous quantities of partially or fully differentiated stem cells. How could the research be complete if those avenues aren't explored? Are people going to argue that those parts are going to be tossed in the incinerator anyway, why not use them to save lives? You can see, of course, that eventually a line is crossed and "humans" are being used for medical research without their consent.

Since the courts have run away every time an attempt is made to get them to agree on the definition of "human". Actually, Congress abdicated it's job to write the definition, which is why the courts feel they have to run away, but that's politics, not morals or ethics, and food for another thread.

On the whole, embryonic stem cell research opens terrible moral doors, and keeping those doors closed lets other moral problems into the room.

At the same time, it's not like embryonic stem cell research is not going on. It's just not going on in the United States, and it's not being paid for by the US taxpayer. How much of that is in your consideration, and why?



So, you are saying that you don't care that Africans die when America could save their lives?


The government funds medical research very often, and it has saved many lives.


"One of the big concerns on ESCR is that aborted fetuses have the potential to provide enormous quantities of partially or fully differentiated stem cells. How could the research be complete if those avenues aren't explored? Are people going to argue that those parts are going to be tossed in the incinerator anyway, why not use them to save lives? You can see, of course, that eventually a line is crossed and "humans" are being used for medical research without their consent."

5-day old embryos are not humans, and there are so many unused embroys sitting in freezers all over the country that we won't have to worry about your crazy "Brave New World" nightmare. Plus, humans are not being used for medical research, 5-day old embryos with no other use are. Can you not tell the difference?


"I can envision one line of research that requires genetically close stem cells for tissue matching purposes...which leads to cloning. Cloning goes to lots of fun places, but let's just say that cloning is both clearer and cloudier than embryonic stem cell research, depending on what you're looking at, and the moral issues are different, also."

So, you are saying that all scientific research leads to cloning and thus must be banned?


"And there's that sticky moral dilemma that these embryos are human beings. Okay, they're really really tiny human beings. But what else are they? Now, as has been said, they're gonna get flushed anyway. They're certainly insensate, but does that alter the morality? If ESCR becomes a commercial proposition, won't increased demand lead to deliberate production of embryonic humans for cultivation and harvesting? What do you think the research will lead to, if not that?"


No, they are not human beings at all. If stem-cell research becomes a commercial proposition, increased demand will lead to more usage of the thousands of embryos sitting in freezers everywhere. You atomatically think that there will be increased demand, and that then........."A BRAVE NEW WORLD"!!!!!!! It is not possible to cultivate humans in America, so you can stop losing sleep about it.


Duke
 
anyways, scientists have produced stemcells from skin cells. ALthough the process is still very unrefined... it could mean the end to the embryonic stem cell research debate.
 
Duke said:
So, you are saying that you don't care that Africans die when America could save their lives?

I'm not their mother. Tax dollars should not be confiscated from me and given away, to anyone. You're perfectly free to donate as much of your own money as you desire to any cause you like.

Freedom. It's what America is all about.

Duke said:
The government funds medical research very often, and it has saved many lives.

I'm not their mother. Tax dollars should not be confiscated from me and given away, to anyone. You're perfectly free to donate as much of your own money as you desire to any cause you like.

Freedom. It's what America is all about.

Duke said:
5-day old embryos are not humans, and there are so many unused embroys sitting in freezers all over the country that we won't have to worry about your crazy "Brave New World" nightmare. Plus, humans are not being used for medical research, 5-day old embryos with no other use are. Can you not tell the difference?

Okay. They're not human, you say. Are they puppies? What is your definition of "human"? I'm not as smart as you, so I presume that "human" encompasses the widest possible definition to avoid stepping on humans when I think I'm killing ants.

Duke said:
So, you are saying that all scientific research leads to cloning and thus must be banned?

Do you understand the moral issues of cloning? Do you understand the technology?


Duke said:
No, they are not human beings at all. If stem-cell research becomes a commercial proposition, increased demand will lead to more usage of the thousands of embryos sitting in freezers everywhere. You atomatically think that there will be increased demand, and that then........."A BRAVE NEW WORLD"!!!!!!! It is not possible to cultivate humans in America, so you can stop losing sleep about it.

Don't understand the vicissitudes of the marketplace, do you? That's a flaw shared by many. No one had much use for sugar cane, either, at one time. Then Columbus discovered the Caribbean, and someone else realized that Africans tolerated the climate, and voila, a massive slave trade arose to grow sugar that suddenly people wanted because it wasn't a super expensive treat anymore.

Since YOU don't know where the technology is going, YOU can't say the scenario I paint is impossible. What I say is based on sound economics and the presumption that you're prediction of the future success of ESCR is valid. ECON101, dude.

But you need to define what you mean by "human", or you're not qualified to discuss the morality of, well, anything.
 
nkgupta80 said:
anyways, scientists have produced stemcells from skin cells. ALthough the process is still very unrefined... it could mean the end to the embryonic stem cell research debate.

No. The driving force behind the embryonic stem cell research debate is the desire of the abortion clinics to find a profitable market for their waste product and to establish a moral justification for their existence.
 
I have also heard, primarily from my biology professor, that stem cells from embryos are more potent than other types.

Freedom. It's what America is all about.

Not this Virtue of Selfishness bullshit.
YOu aren't, by any chance, a follower of Ayn Rand, are you?
 
Technocratic_Utilitarian said:
I have also heard, primarily from my biology professor, that stem cells from embryos are more potent than other types.



Not this Virtue of Selfishness bullshit.
YOu aren't, by any chance, a follower of Ayn Rand, are you?


So it's safe to assume you've read the front cover of "The Virtue of Selfishness", then?

Did you get past the copyright page?
 
Scarecrow Akhbar said:
No. The driving force behind the embryonic stem cell research debate is the desire of the abortion clinics to find a profitable market for their waste product and to establish a moral justification for their existence.


No offense, but I cannot believe that you are that stupid. Stem-Cell research is about saving lives. You can ask the scientists themselves. Read this months issue of Popular Science.


Duke
 
Scarecrow Akhbar said:
I'm not their mother. Tax dollars should not be confiscated from me and given away, to anyone. You're perfectly free to donate as much of your own money as you desire to any cause you like.

Freedom. It's what America is all about.



I'm not their mother. Tax dollars should not be confiscated from me and given away, to anyone. You're perfectly free to donate as much of your own money as you desire to any cause you like.

Freedom. It's what America is all about.




Okay. They're not human, you say. Are they puppies? What is your definition of "human"? I'm not as smart as you, so I presume that "human" encompasses the widest possible definition to avoid stepping on humans when I think I'm killing ants.



Do you understand the moral issues of cloning? Do you understand the technology?




Don't understand the vicissitudes of the marketplace, do you? That's a flaw shared by many. No one had much use for sugar cane, either, at one time. Then Columbus discovered the Caribbean, and someone else realized that Africans tolerated the climate, and voila, a massive slave trade arose to grow sugar that suddenly people wanted because it wasn't a super expensive treat anymore.

Since YOU don't know where the technology is going, YOU can't say the scenario I paint is impossible. What I say is based on sound economics and the presumption that you're prediction of the future success of ESCR is valid. ECON101, dude.

But you need to define what you mean by "human", or you're not qualified to discuss the morality of, well, anything.


Well, what do you think that tax dollars are for? Guess who makes our military weapons? Taxes pay for that, you know. I already have defined human, by the way.
About your "Brave New World" scenario, we have these special things in America called laws, you see. They can prevent your insane hypothesis from becoming reality.
I do understand the technology and moral issues involved with cloning. Why?


By the way, I am mostly debating wether stem-cell research is right or wrong, not about the government.


Duke
 
All right, it is my belief that something is truly and fully alive when it is born. Before then, it is a part of its mother.
To a degree, that is.


Duke
 
Duke said:
No offense, but I cannot believe that you are that stupid. Stem-Cell research is about saving lives. You can ask the scientists themselves. Read this months issue of Popular Science.

No offense, but I don't believe anyone who thinks multi-billion dollar federal outlays are about anything except money should be walking the streets without a handler.
 
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