The real reason the anti gun crowd has a problem with armed self defense with a gun!

[poppopfox]

1) I think honest people being armed is a good thing-there are many good things honest people do with firearms.

Where's that list?

2) leftwing gun control schemes are intended to diminish honest people being armed while only pretending to disarm evil folks

NRA talking point for the Archie Bunker crowd..

3) free societies tend to have more criminals than authoritarian ones

Feel free to offer proof, perhaps a peer reviewed journal article.

 

[Rich2018]

Why would you make that up? Show me where I BLAMED guns for suicide.

Though there is evidence to support the argument that guns increase suicide numbers

Not by making people more suicidal, but by increasing the number of people acting on those thoughts
Indeed there's a current YouTube ad by a gun-lock system that is selling it's gun lock on the basis that a locked gun increases the time for an owner to reconsider, if indeed he/she were to get suicidal thoughts.

 

[TurtleDude]

Where's that list?

NRA talking point for the Archie Bunker crowd..

Feel free to offer proof, perhaps a peer reviewed journal article.

you need a list of good things people can do with firearms? that is so ridiculously stupid that it is not worth satisfying a sea lion query

 

[TurtleDude]

Though there is evidence to support the argument that guns increase suicide numbers

Not by making people more suicidal, but by increasing the number of people acting on those thoughts
Indeed there's a current YouTube ad by a gun-lock system that is selling it's gun lock on the basis that a locked gun increases the time for an owner to reconsider, if indeed he/she were to get suicidal thoughts.

suicide is not a valid argument for banning guns

 

[brianpatrick]

Why do gun control advocates believe that their proposed laws will disarm criminals?

Lots of reasons. Illegal guns become exceptionally expensive. When the population is not generally armed, police, and even criminals don’t need guns as much either. When the market is no longer there, the salesmen move on. Can’t buy a gun at Walmart anymore. Criminals can’t steal guns that aren’t in your house. Criminals can be arrested for just having a gun, which means less willing to take the chance. Less criminally minded children of otherwise good parents will have access to easy guns.

GCAs are afraid of law abiding citizens owning guns. That's why they want to reduce the number of law abiding citizens owning guns.

 

[TurtleDude]

Lots of reasons. Illegal guns become exceptionally expensive. When the population is not generally armed, police, and even criminals don’t need guns as much either. When the market is no longer there, the salesmen move on. Can’t buy a gun at Walmart anymore. Criminals can’t steal guns that aren’t in your house. Criminals can be arrested for just having a gun, which means less willing to take the chance. Less criminally minded children of otherwise good parents will have access to easy guns.

you pretend that banning guns will make them go away. There are over 400 million firearms in the USA now. The police and military consume several million a year and lose thousands. 3D printing machines and CNC machinery allows home craftsmen a productive ability that far surpasses what gun makers 100 years ago had to make things like Tommy guns and BAR rifles. our borders are sieves and millions of more recently declared obsolete firearms are being dumped on the world market by various countries' militaries

 

[brianpatrick]

you pretend that banning guns will make them go away. There are over 400 million firearms in the USA now. The police and military consume several million a year and lose thousands. 3D printing machines and CNC machinery allows home craftsmen a productive ability that far surpasses what gun makers 100 years ago had to make things like Tommy guns and BAR rifles. our borders are sieves and millions of more recently declared obsolete firearms are being dumped on the world market by various countries' militaries

You will all find them less and less necessary, and the market eventually won’t support the new industry—customers leave, market does too. Most people would participate in a buyback, or turn them in.

And again… black market guns become very very expensive, pricing most average people out of them. Sure you can print your guns at home but how many do you personally need? You gonna give them away? Better make sure the people you give or sell them to don’t use them in a crime, or at least they can’t be traced back to you in any way. There’s a lot of market force behind things like that.

 

[poppopfox]

smart gun haters say lots of things about me-ignorance isn't one of them when it comes to this topic.

Cute that you think that.

 

[Rich2018]

suicide is not a valid argument for banning guns

Not on its own, no

It's just that a reduction in successful suicide attempts is an additional benefit on a gun ban.

 

[Rucker61]

Lots of reasons. Illegal guns become exceptionally expensive. When the population is not generally armed, police, and even criminals don’t need guns as much either.

This entire scenario requires that you disarm the public, which you're already admitted isn't going to happen.

When the market is no longer there, the salesmen move on. Can’t buy a gun at Walmart anymore.

Can't buy fentanyl, heroin or meth at Walmart, either. Must not be a market or a source for those.

Criminals can’t steal guns that aren’t in your house. Criminals can be arrested for just having a gun, which means less willing to take the chance.

Every felon faces a 10 year prison sentence now for having a gun in their possession. Why isn't this law working to keep guns out of the hands of felons?

Less criminally minded children of otherwise good parents will have access to easy guns.

You're still talking about disarming the public, which wouldn't be Constitutional. That's a requirement, remember?

 

[TurtleDude]

You will all find them less and less necessary, and the market eventually won’t support the new industry—customers leave, market does too. Most people would participate in a buyback, or turn them in.

And again… black market guns become very very expensive, pricing most average people out of them. Sure you can print your guns at home but how many do you personally need? You gonna give them away? Better make sure the people you give or sell them to don’t use them in a crime, or at least they can’t be traced back to you in any way. There’s a lot of market force behind things like that.

you labor under the false belief that self defense is the only or major reason why people own guns. Since it becomes easier and easier to make guns, they will be cheaper. I think ultimately the bannerrhoid movement will cause a low level civil war. when it is over, the gun ban movement, I suspect, will be no longer viable

 

[TurtleDude]

Not on its own, no

It's just that a reduction in successful suicide attempts is an additional benefit on a gun ban.

how about all the people who will be killed due to your dream of confiscating guns?

 

[brianpatrick]

Cute that you think that.

How about willful ignorance? That’s a thing isn’t it? Or maybe feigning willful ignorance in service to some other goal that’s not being made apparent?

 

[Rucker61]

You will all find them less and less necessary

In what way?

, and the market eventually won’t support the new industry—customers leave, market does too. Most people would participate in a buyback, or turn them in.

Why do you believe this?

And again… black market guns become very very expensive, pricing most average people out of them.

Why do you believe this?

Sure you can print your guns at home but how many do you personally need? You gonna give them away? Better make sure the people you give or sell them to don’t use them in a crime, or at least they can’t be traced back to you in any way. There’s a lot of market force behind things like that.

You don't seem to understand gun owners very well.

 

[poppopfox]

You want to include suicides with homicides, when talking all the trash about proliferation of guns, etc. What do the suicides you're concerned with share in common with the homicides you're concerned with? We know.

Show me where I BLAMED guns for suicide. That was your claim.

But if you want to now claim guns are irrelevant to the question, that's fine. Else get to justifying why you're intent on leaving out ropes and tall buildings when you're bemoaning guns and suicides.

That's your claim, guns are relevant to questions of gun violence. Why would they not be? Because of ropes and tall buildings?

 

[brianpatrick]

This entire scenario requires that you disarm the public, which you're already admitted isn't going to happen.


Can't buy fentanyl, heroin or meth at Walmart, either. Must not be a market or a source for those.


Every felon faces a 10 year prison sentence now for having a gun in their possession. Why isn't this law working to keep guns out of the hands of felons?


You're still talking about disarming the public, which wouldn't be Constitutional. That's a requirement, remember?

Hate to quote jefferies again but… “it’s called an ‘amendment’ for a reason.” You’re using circular logic. That doesn’t work.

Drug use and gun use have different motivations. You’re fooling yourself if you think there are more than a couple handfuls of people who think of guns like a junkie thinks of heroin.

Felons is kind of broad. Most felons don’t have guns.

 

[brianpatrick]

In what way?


Why do you believe this?

Why do you believe this?


You don't seem to understand gun owners very well.

Most gun owners are just regular people.

 

[Rucker61]

Hate to quote jefferies again but… “it’s called an ‘amendment’ for a reason.” You’re using circular logic. That doesn’t work.

Jeffries is a comedian pandering to an audience. The entire Constitution is subject to amendment. We wouldn't even have a ratified Constitution if the Federalists hadn't agreed to include a Bill of Rights for ratification. The Anti-federalists felt that the BoR was as much a part of the Constitution as the Constitution itself.

Find a recent red/blue map of the states. Start counting red states. Stop when you get to 13.

Drug use and gun use have different motivations. You’re fooling yourself if you think there are more than a couple handfuls of people who think of guns like a junkie thinks of heroin.

No, I'm pointing out the that your claim that if we make something illegal that the demand goes away and the market goes away doesn't seem to work in real life.

Felons is kind of broad. Most felons don’t have guns.

Yet the ones who do aren't dissuaded by 10 years in jail, are they?

 

[brianpatrick]

Jeffries is a comedian pandering to an audience. The entire Constitution is subject to amendment. We wouldn't even have a ratified Constitution if the Federalists hadn't agreed to include a Bill of Rights for ratification. The Anti-federalists felt that the BoR was as much a part of the Constitution as the Constitution itself.

Find a recent red/blue map of the states. Start counting red states. Stop when you get to 13.



No, I'm pointing out the that your claim that if we make something illegal that the demand goes away and the market goes away doesn't seem to work in real life.

Yet the ones who do aren't dissuaded by 10 years in jail, are they?

Which felons are you worried about? There will always be bad guys. They’ll just have less guns like the rest of us. Demand for heroin doesn’t equal demand for guns. Two different mechanisms there. But if drug addicts stopped doing drugs, the dealers would leave. And it wouldn’t have to be ALL drug users, just enough to make the market not viable.

 

[P_T]

Guys the LEO are going to move to more unlethal ways to subdue stupid's who cannot understand you are under arrest spread and Cuff sequences. Guys who cannot understand the rule of law and respect the officers. Officers are gonna have better unlethal ways. More back up and witnesses to assure the ambulance chasers are STFU !

 

[Rucker61]

Which felons are you worried about? There will always be bad guys. They’ll just have less guns like the rest of us.

Why do you think that the "rest of us" will have fewer guns? The average "time to crime" for a firearm in the US is 9 years, so that's at least 9 years where, in your scenario, victims will be unarmed against their attackers.

Demand for heroin doesn’t equal demand for guns. Two different mechanisms there. But if drug addicts stopped doing drugs, the dealers would leave.

Why do you think that the law abiding citizens wouldn't still have a demand for guns? All drug addiction is harmful; the vast majority of gun ownership is not.

And it wouldn’t have to be ALL drug users, just enough to make the market not viable.

I yield to your knowledge of the drug market.

 

[P_T]

Is a fact that most lower per capita per acre states are more Republican / ultra conservative than the heavy populated Counties in larger population states. Look at it this way, one republican land lord to every Rental Building. Average of population in rental building are 100 so its 100 Democrats to 1 Republican in those Counties. So you see Greed is as Greed does. So you have a Corp owning 1000's of rental properties and 100,000 renters, same outcome at the poles !

 

[IQ57]

Disarming America? Really?

Now I wonder how the rest of the world would think of that. Especially certain countries.

No ability to defend oneself and their country?

 

[RF667799]

Show me where I BLAMED guns for suicide. That was your claim.

That's your claim, guns are relevant to questions of gun violence. Why would they not be? Because of ropes and tall buildings?

Suicide. Remember? If guns are relevant to suicide, then so are ropes and tall buildings. All three are means by which people commit suicide. Only one means seems to matter to you, so I have to question if the suicides themselves are even a blip on your emoradar.

 

[RF667799]

Which felons are you worried about? There will always be bad guys. They’ll just have less guns like the rest of us. Demand for heroin doesn’t equal demand for guns. Two different mechanisms there. But if drug addicts stopped doing drugs, the dealers would leave. And it wouldn’t have to be ALL drug users, just enough to make the market not viable.

If I have 5 less guns, how many less guns does a felon have? How does removing 5 guns from me, remove even a single gun from a felon? Wouldn't it be better to remove the gun from a felon directly, instead of hoping that removing 5 of my guns somehow magically removes the gun from the felon?