The real reason the anti gun crowd has a problem with armed self defense with a gun!

[Rucker61]

Rucker61 tells me up thread, it's a bad idea to piss a gun owner off, why is that? Why isn't it just like pissing anyone off? What's the difference? Oh, is it the GUN?

You're the one who claims to be afraid of gun owners. Given your fear, why would you choose to piss them off? You entered this conversation with that intent, to use a law you despise for unconstitutional purposes.

You just can't handle the fact that an armed citizen is seen as a threat because armed citizens kill people and we don't know which ones will or won't. I'm sure a lot of you are great people, but please tell me, what's the secret code so I know?

Your fear gives the government no power to disarm the citizenry.

This "good" guy with a gun bullshit is comical. It takes time to know which person with a gun is good or bad, you all don't wear t-shirts. The facts are, people even get shot by officers because they're also afraid of gun owners because who knows which one of you will flip a nut and they own a gun themselves. There's not way to know.

What is the ratio of good guys shooting people illegally to the total number of good guys with guns?

What you should know is what comes with carrying a gun is other peoples fear instead you just poke fun at other peoples fears. Are you telling me you are a responsible gun owner that doesn't realize that? I find that really hard to believe.

If the option is to not carry, or even not own a gun, because if the fears of people like you, yeah, ridicule comes into play. That's especially true given that your whole focus is on the risk of goid guys owning guns, and not to promote efforts to reduce the risk of bad guys with guns who cause the vast majority if gun violence. That's a telling position.

Do you acknowledge militias? Proud Boys? Men with guns who are ready to fight a civil war? Aggravated drivers who shoot someone for cutting them off in traffic? QAnon nuts with guns who shoot up their made up enemy. Domestic gun violence? School shootings? Mass shootings? Criminals?
Shootings at parties? ETC.

That they exist, yes. How many deaths have been caused by the first three groups? How many of the remainder were committed by legal gun owners?

I mean, all these things happen and you can't understand why people fear guns?

Are youvsovafraid that this truly affects your life? Do you still go to the mall, church, etc. without a second thought?

a ink you're out of touch. I would think this common knowledge would be part of a responsible gun owners knowledge. It's a ****ing gun, that was made to kill things. If I see a person with a gun, I will fear it until I am sure they won't use it, and if you're honest, so do you.

Your fear gives the government no power to disarm the citizens.

 

[poppopfox]

Rucker61 tells me up thread, it's a bad idea to piss a gun owner off, why is that? Why isn't it just like pissing anyone off? What's the difference? Oh, is it the GUN?

Exactly

This "good" guy with a gun bullshit is comical. It takes time to know which person with a gun is good or bad, you all don't wear t-shirts. The facts are, people even get shot by officers because they're also afraid of gun owners because who knows which one of you will flip a nut and they own a gun themselves. There's not way to know.

Maybe they should all wear T-shirts? It is comical.

What you should know is what comes with carrying a gun is other peoples fear instead you just poke fun at other peoples fears. Are you telling me you are a responsible gun owner that doesn't realize that? I find that really hard to believe.

Eyes, ears, thoughts and minds are wired shut on this topic for the amateur gunslinger. The NRA says "no compromise" and the minions fall in line, just like the sheeple they claim exist on the other side.

Do you acknowledge militias? Proud Boys? Men with guns who are ready to fight a civil war? Aggravated drivers who shoot someone for cutting them off in traffic? QAnon nuts with guns who shoot up their made up enemy. Domestic gun violence? School shootings? Mass shootings? Criminals?
Shootings at parties? ETC.

Two days ago a few students from the local high school were challenged to a fist fight after school at a nearby playground. When they arrived they were ambushed by a still unknown number of teens with semiauto handguns. One child died at the scene, three others hospitalized, the assailants are still on the loose and the school has gone to virtual. My oldest grandchild knew the deceased. First time a tragedy like this took place in our community and I can guarantee that many who live nearby have been reappraising their views of gun "rights." How many more?

I mean, all these things happen and you can't understand why people fear guns? I think you're out of touch. I would think this common knowledge would be part of a responsible gun owners knowledge. It's a ****ing gun, that was made to kill things. If I see a person with a gun, I will fear it until I am sure they won't use it, and if you're honest, so do you.

 

[Rucker61]

Exactly

No, it's the fear. If you truly fear someone with a gun, why would you antagonize them? That implies that either you don't think they would use a gun on you or your fear isn't real.

Maybe they should all wear T-shirts? It is comical.
View attachment 67380415

Wouldn't it be better if you could convince the bad guys to wear a "Bad Guy" t-shirt?

Eyes, ears, thoughts and minds are wired shut on this topic for the amateur gunslinger. The NRA says "no compromise" and the minions fall in line, just like the sheeple they claim exist on the other side.

I keep asking this, and I never get an answer from your side. "Compromise" implies "give and take". We never see your side offering to give anything back. If anyone is opposed to compromise, it's the gun control advocates. We've seen multiple posters reiterate that the goal has to be an end to civilian possession of firearms. I'm not seeing any compromise there, are you?

Two days ago a few students from the local high school were challenged to a fist fight after school at a nearby playground. When they arrived they were ambushed by a still unknown number of teens with semiauto handguns. One child died at the scene, three others hospitalized, the assailants are still on the loose and the school has gone to virtual. My oldest grandchild knew the deceased. First time a tragedy like this took place in our community and I can guarantee that many who live nearby have been reappraising their views of gun "rights." How many more?

None of those with guns actually had rights to those guns. We've already made that illegal.

We know guns are dangerous. It's in the owner's manual. I've been to rallies where everyone had guns. I didn't have any fear. I've been to competitions when everyone had AR-15s and lots of ammo. I didn't have any fear.

 

[brianpatrick]

Not! Worry is not fear. I will not lose them only lose the regular use of them so there is no fear. Just a concern. It's the idea that some folks are so stupid, so ignorant of history and human nature, that they would give up the only right that keeps them free. The thought that someone could be so dumb to allow it is scary. But to actively seek it knowing history no less.......just awful.

To my point all along. Worry IS fear. That worry or fear affects the rest of society. It changes your actions in a way that poisons society at large. It poisons you, even if you won’t acknowledge it.

 

[Rucker61]

To my point all along. Worry IS fear.

Is reasonable precaution "fear"?

That worry or fear affects the rest of society. It changes your actions in a way that poisons society at large.

Right. Given that according to the Democrats we live in an epidemic of violence, is being prepared to defend oneself "fear" or "reasonable precaution"? How is society "poisoned" by "reasonable precaution".

It poisons you, even if you won’t acknowledge it.

You sure do like to make up psychobabble.

 

[brianpatrick]

No, it's the fear. If you truly fear someone with a gun, why would you antagonize them? That implies that either you don't think they would use a gun on you or your fear isn't real.

Wouldn't it be better if you could convince the bad guys to wear a "Bad Guy" t-shirt?

I keep asking this, and I never get an answer from your side. "Compromise" implies "give and take". We never see your side offering to give anything back. If anyone is opposed to compromise, it's the gun control advocates. We've seen multiple posters reiterate that the goal has to be an end to civilian possession of firearms. I'm not seeing any compromise there, are you?

None of those with guns actually had rights to those guns. We've already made that illegal.

We know guns are dangerous. It's in the owner's manual. I've been to rallies where everyone had guns. I didn't have any fear. I've been to competitions when everyone had AR-15s and lots of ammo. I didn't have any fear.

“If you fear someone with a gun, why would you antagonize them?”

Exactly to my point again. Why would anyone want to live lives of mutually assured destruction, where everyone is armed, and you better not step out of line, either intentionally or by accident, because you might get shot? That’s not a recipe for a peaceful society.

 

[Rucker61]

“If you fear someone with a gun, why would you antagonize them?”

Exactly to my point again.

I'm not claiming that the fear is justified - I'm pointing out the thoroughly irrational behavior based on that fear of antagonizing the source of that fear. If you truly feared something, you'd avoid it, not antagonize it.

Why would anyone want to live lives of mutually assured destruction, where everyone is armed, and you better not step out of line, either intentionally or by accident, because you might get shot?

It's also a fantasyland of your own creation, because the society you're describing doesn't actually exist. Everyone isn't armed here, and antagonizing the lawfully armed isn't going to get you shot. We know that because there are 100 million lawful gun owners. If these people were truly a problem to the unarmed in society, you wouldn't be here to read this.

That’s not a recipe for a peaceful society.

But disarming the law abiding citizens is? Predators preyed on innocents well before the invention of the firearm.

 

[RF667799]

“If you fear someone with a gun, why would you antagonize them?”

Exactly to my point again. Why would anyone want to live lives of mutually assured destruction, where everyone is armed, and you better not step out of line, either intentionally or by accident, because you might get shot? That’s not a recipe for a peaceful society.

Why do you want leave to step out of line? Leave people alone and keep your hands to yourself.

 

[RF667799]

Rucker61 tells me up thread, it's a bad idea to piss a gun owner off, why is that? Why isn't it just like pissing anyone off? What's the difference? Oh, is it the GUN?

You just can't handle the fact that an armed citizen is seen as a threat because armed citizens kill people and we don't know which ones will or won't. I'm sure a lot of you are great people, but please tell me, what's the secret code so I know?

This "good" guy with a gun bullshit is comical. It takes time to know which person with a gun is good or bad, you all don't wear t-shirts. The facts are, people even get shot by officers because they're also afraid of gun owners because who knows which one of you will flip a nut and they own a gun themselves. There's not way to know.

What you should know is what comes with carrying a gun is other peoples fear instead you just poke fun at other peoples fears. Are you telling me you are a responsible gun owner that doesn't realize that? I find that really hard to believe.

Do you acknowledge militias? Proud Boys? Men with guns who are ready to fight a civil war? Aggravated drivers who shoot someone for cutting them off in traffic? QAnon nuts with guns who shoot up their made up enemy. Domestic gun violence? School shootings? Mass shootings? Criminals?
Shootings at parties? ETC.

I mean, all these things happen and you can't understand why people fear guns? I think you're out of touch. I would think this common knowledge would be part of a responsible gun owners knowledge. It's a ****ing gun, that was made to kill things. If I see a person with a gun, I will fear it until I am sure they won't use it, and if you're honest, so do you.

This is just a disjointed rant expressing bigotry. You're projecting your dislike and fear of guns onto all gun owners. If this was done on the basis of race, it would be called racism. For some reason though, it's okay to malign an entire group based on the actions of a tiny minority of that group, if it is done on a politically correct basis.

 

[brianpatrick]

Is reasonable precaution "fear"?


Right. Given that according to the Democrats we live in an epidemic of violence, is being prepared to defend oneself "fear" or "reasonable precaution"? How is society "poisoned" by "reasonable precaution".


You sure do like to make up psychobabble.

Yes, unnecessary reasonable precaution is fear, that could be virtually eliminated if we were a mostly gun free society.

You can’t simultaneously plan for peace and prepare for war.

 

[RF667799]

Yes, unnecessary reasonable precaution is fear, that could be virtually eliminated if we were a mostly gun free society.

You can’t simultaneously plan for peace and prepare for war.

"Unnecessary reasonable precaution..."

Yes, you can in fact prepare for two contingencies at once.

 

[brianpatrick]

Why do you want leave to step out of line? Leave people alone and keep your hands to yourself.

I have to trust that everyone one of you “good” gun owners isn’t going to become a bad one tomorrow. That has nothing to do with me “stepping out of line.”

A bunch of you “good” gun owners crack up, or make mistakes (letting your kid have access) everyday.

 

[brianpatrick]

"Unnecessary reasonable precaution..."

Yes, you can in fact prepare for two contingencies at once.

Not without consequences to a broader society. It’s like the Covid divide. Why can’t we be free to decide for ourselves if we wear a mask etc? Because it’s an invisible contagious virus. Same with guns.

 

[brianpatrick]

I'm not claiming that the fear is justified - I'm pointing out the thoroughly irrational behavior based on that fear of antagonizing the source of that fear. If you truly feared something, you'd avoid it, not antagonize it.



It's also a fantasyland of your own creation, because the society you're describing doesn't actually exist. Everyone isn't armed here, and antagonizing the lawfully armed isn't going to get you shot. We know that because there are 100 million lawful gun owners. If these people were truly a problem to the unarmed in society, you wouldn't be here to read this.

But disarming the law abiding citizens is? Predators preyed on innocents well before the invention of the firearm.

Criminals escalate too, right along with all the “good” gun owners.

 

[Rucker61]

Yes, unnecessary reasonable precaution is fear

I wrote "reasonable precaution". You've changed that argument to "unnecessary reasonable precaution", which is both a contradiction in terms and a straw man. Very poor debating technique.

, that could be virtually eliminated if we were a mostly gun free society.

Back to fantasyland, I see. You have no plan to get to a "mostly gun free society". and you seem to think that thugs without guns aren't dangerous enough to fear. What about the people who fear being unable to protect themselves against this very real danger? Does their fear matter?

The government was given no power to pass laws to "eliminate fear". Fear happens in your mind. You control it.

We have 100 million gun owners. They don't fear citizens with guns. Not a single proposal supported by Moms, Mayors, the Democratic Party or Joe Biden indicate the need to get to a "mostly gun free society". That's hundreds of millions of people who aren't so afraid of armed citizens that the only solution is a "mostly gun free society". Given those numbers, maybe the problem is you.

You can’t simultaneously plan for peace and prepare for war.

We do it all the time. Your platitudes aren't worth much, you know.

 

[Rucker61]

Criminals escalate too, right along with all the “good” gun owners.

Criminals prey; that's what they do. Only a minute proportion of law abiding owners do so.

But, now that we know what you want, a "mostly gun free society", how do you think we get there?

 

[P_T]

Well; look at it this way do I tell you owners of Apple smart phones to make sure the kids can't play the mind twisting / bending games on it. Hell Yeah !
Do I tell ya to not let your kids drive until they are 21, hell yeah ! Do I tell you to have curfews on kids until they are 18, hell yeah ! Do I tell you to not
use traffic hate when driving, drive courteously and self defensive, hell Yeah! Do you listen or just drive around listing to hate RAP , cut people off in traffic,
Scream out the window at elderly crossing at the stop light and maybe get run over by a 18 wheeler at the next one. Hell no! See you on your daily life are a hell of a lot more dangerous than my lil CCW everyday !

I will choose the guy with the CCW over you always to be on my team ! I can trust him !
Do I know I can never trust you ? Hell yeah !
You most likely will act irrationally nearly daily ! You will stand and argue with the teller when your phone can't make a purchase cause of low funds !
You will come unglued when the phone goes on slow battery conserve mode, you have misplaced your charge cord or lost your purse / misplaced it.
You will abort a fetus if it suits you. Try to get my trust ? NADA gonna happen ! Middle finger to ya ! You see you are the cause of Chaos ! A Putin Disciple !
A believer of taking what you can when you can and mostly not carrying of the Chaos you have done ! Why ? because you legally can get away with it ! Your reasoning is its better for Ya that a way ! U know being a danger to society daily ! You most likely take some kind of Drug daily, prescription or smoke !

 

[Rich2018]

Didn’t you watch Red Dawn?

Which version ?

 

[RF667799]

I have to trust that everyone one of you “good” gun owners isn’t going to become a bad one tomorrow. That has nothing to do with me “stepping out of line.”

A bunch of you “good” gun owners crack up, or make mistakes (letting your kid have access) everyday.

I have to trust that the next driver I meet on a narrow ridgeline road is taking appropriate care to keep from killing everyone in both our cars. Other people having things with the potential for harm isn't something unique to gun owners.

 

[RF667799]

Not without consequences to a broader society. It’s like the Covid divide. Why can’t we be free to decide for ourselves if we wear a mask etc? Because it’s an invisible contagious virus. Same with guns.

What are the consequences to the broader society of allowing people to run around at will in privately owned vehicles?

 

[brianpatrick]

What are the consequences to the broader society of allowing people to run around at will in privately owned vehicles?

Guns are for threatening or killing people, and cars are not. Cars are heavily regulated at all levels of government and their safety keeps being improved.
There are other uses for guns as tools, sports, critter control, hunting, etc. safety controls and regs would impact these things in various way, but wouldn’t impede peoples ability to do them.

 

[Rucker61]

Guns are for threatening or killing people, and cars are not.

According to Congress in the Gun Control Act of 1968, guns are for all lawful purposes including "hunting, trapshooting, target shooting, personal protection, or any other lawful activity". That's why threatening someone or killing someone not in self defense are generally what we call "crimes".

Cars are heavily regulated at all levels of government and their safety keeps being improved.

"Heavily regulated". Not at all. I send them a credit card number once a year, get a smog check every two years and drive a 16 year old car that hasn't had any safety improvement added to it at all.

None of the safety improvements prevent the use of a car in homicides; Waukegan, WI and Nice, France are examples of that.

Why with all of this "heavy regulation" and safety improvements do we still see 40k+ automotive related deaths per year?

There are other uses for guns as tools, sports, critter control, hunting, etc. safety controls and regs would impact these things in various way, but wouldn’t impede peoples ability to do them.

Are these controls Constitutional, effective and enforceable? Would these controls help you get to your "mostly gun free society" that you desire so badly?

 

[Rich2018]

Guns are for threatening or killing people, and cars are not. Cars are heavily regulated at all levels of government and their safety keeps being improved.
There are other uses for guns as tools, sports, critter control, hunting, etc. safety controls and regs would impact these things in various way, but wouldn’t impede peoples ability to do them.

And virtually every person in the USA is reliant on motor vehicles.

 

[Rucker61]

And virtually every person in the USA is reliant on motor vehicles.

Yes, we understand your position that if a certain level of convenience is present then the deaths are acceptable.

 

[RF667799]

Guns are for threatening or killing people, and cars are not. Cars are heavily regulated at all levels of government and their safety keeps being improved.
There are other uses for guns as tools, sports, critter control, hunting, etc. safety controls and regs would impact these things in various way, but wouldn’t impede peoples ability to do them.

Again, how amazing is it that tens upon tens of millions of people manage to not use their guns to threaten or kill anyone, everyday?

You can't prove that guns are "for killing people", without simultaneously proving cars are as well.