The REAL problem with US healthcare

[roguenuke]

Really? So when they break their arm they need to go get that x-ray in the next 10 minutes or they will die?

If you don't get a broken bone taken care of quickly, it can cause infection or improper setting of the bone. It can be lifethreatening and certainly it will take longer for most to get to a hospital, where they will then likely have to wait hours, in order to get the bone fixed. So while 10 minutes doesn't seem like too long to spend "price shopping" for better healthcare, in real life it is unrealistic to do so.

 

[roguenuke]

There are about 6.3 million fractures a year in this country. In your mind they are all so life threatening that no one can ever be bothered to check the price of setting it because they might die so something has to be done about the cost. Got ya.

Fractures and Broken Bone Information

And there is a difference between a broken bone and a fractured bone. Some people don't even go to the doctor's for fractures because they don't even know they have them because it is just a little pain (depending on how bad it is) and they can't afford the doctor's visit for something like that. But broken bones mean a hospital visit, quickly.

 

[Heebie Jeebie]

If you don't get a broken bone taken care of quickly, it can cause infection or improper setting of the bone. It can be lifethreatening and certainly it will take longer for most to get to a hospital, where they will then likely have to wait hours, in order to get the bone fixed. So while 10 minutes doesn't seem like too long to spend "price shopping" for better healthcare, in real life it is unrealistic to do so.

Right, it is so dangerous that even making a phone call or doing a quick search on a smart phone means you risk death. Got it.

 

[Heebie Jeebie]

And there is a difference between a broken bone and a fractured bone. Some people don't even go to the doctor's for fractures because they don't even know they have them because it is just a little pain (depending on how bad it is) and they can't afford the doctor's visit for something like that. But broken bones mean a hospital visit, quickly.

Really?

They fix set them right in the Dr's office here. Maybe that is why you think healthcare is so expensive, you require a visit to a hospital ER for a broken finger along with a slew of specialists, tests and every other medical test to fix something that has been being taken care of for decades without them.

 

[roguenuke]

Right, it is so dangerous that even making a phone call or doing a quick search on a smart phone means you risk death. Got it.

But it is not practical to think that the first thing on a person's mind, particularly a parent or the one in pain is to look for the cheapest doctor, especially when it isn't that quick of a search to do. That isn't how our minds work in such situations. And it shouldn't have to be. We shouldn't have to have the first thing we think about be how much money it will cost to take care of a broken bone rather than making sure our loved ones can stop feeling pain as quickly as possible. Broken bones are extremely painful. My husband broke his knee last year. My husband is a tough guy and told me it hurt so much he almost passed out. Plus he faced a 20 minute or more car ride in Bahrain to get to the hospital to get it taken care of, something faced by many here in the states as well.

 

[roguenuke]

Really?

They fix set them right in the Dr's office here. Maybe that is why you think healthcare is so expensive, you require a visit to a hospital ER for a broken finger along with a slew of specialists, tests and every other medical test to fix something that has been being taken care of for decades without them.

And one of the things that has led to us living longer is that we don't rely on nature alone to fix broken bones, not completely anyway. We ensure that such things are actually put back into place rather than allowed to heal wrongly.

Plus, you never indicated which bones you were talking about exactly. There is a huge difference between getting a broken finger fixed and a broken arm or broken leg fixed. And despite popular belief, you cannot simply call up any clinic that you find out of a book and expect that they will be willing to take care of you for a broken finger or toe just because you found out that they are the cheapest for that procedure. They may not even have the time to take care of you.

 

[Heebie Jeebie]

And one of the things that has led to us living longer is that we don't rely on nature alone to fix broken bones, not completely anyway. We ensure that such things are actually put back into place rather than allowed to heal wrongly.

So in 1950 you are saying they didn't set broken bones without a hospital visit, x-ray, mri, consultations with specialists and the blessing of the insurance company?

 

[Heebie Jeebie]

But it is not practical to think that the first thing on a person's mind, particularly a parent or the one in pain is to look for the cheapest doctor, especially when it isn't that quick of a search to do. That isn't how our minds work in such situations. And it shouldn't have to be. We shouldn't have to have the first thing we think about be how much money it will cost to take care of a broken bone rather than making sure our loved ones can stop feeling pain as quickly as possible. Broken bones are extremely painful. My husband broke his knee last year. My husband is a tough guy and told me it hurt so much he almost passed out. Plus he faced a 20 minute or more car ride in Bahrain to get to the hospital to get it taken care of, something faced by many here in the states as well.

Of course you can find extreme examples. I'm not sure what comparing how you get treatment for a broken knee when you are in Bahrain with breaking a finger in Portland Oregon accomplishes but you seems to think it shows something.

 

[LowDown]

So you're saying that you don't like America's free market health care? Big surprise :roll:

It's absurd to refer to the American medical system as "free market". It's nothing of the kind. If it was then prices would be a lot lower.

American medicine even before the ACA was one of the most highly regulated and government controlled businesses in America. The government totally controls one whole chunk of it, the biggest chunk, which is Medicare, the care of the elderly, and that gives them leave to control most of the rest of it through regulations. That's why the costs are so high -- the government mandates so much. In order to be eligible for Medicare a hospital must meet a very long and expensive list of requirements and that cost gets passed to Medicare or the insurance companies and from there it is passed to us. The growth of government in Medicine tracks right along with the increase in prices going right back to the 1930's.

If you want to see what a truly free market medical system in America is like then look at veternary medicine. They use the same drugs, the same surgical techniques, the same radiology and so on but it all costs less than 10% or so of what it costs for human care. One reason is that if Fido dies the Vet doesn't usually have to worry about being sued out of existance. That, and there isn't an enormous government program pouring money into veternary medicine and showering vets with requirements, mandates, and regulations that increase the cost.

Or look at Plastic Surgery, which isn't covered by most government or insurance plans. The prices are a lot lower and you can get package deals.

Cost controls are built into the ACA, but I will make this fearless prediction: They won't work. They won't work because it will be just like it was under Medicare. When the cost controls begin to bite and patients and/or doctors start complaining about it the politicians will cave and pull the controls out of the ACA. It will end up costing more than we could ever have imagined.

 

[roguenuke]

So in 1950 you are saying they didn't set broken bones without a hospital visit, x-ray, mri, consultations with specialists and the blessing of the insurance company?

Very few get an MRI for a broken bone. As for xrays, it depends on the bone. I didn't get one for my broken nose, but did for the wrist injury (that wasn't broken) that happened during the same incident. But yes, we have fewer complications from broken bones now from being able to see the actual bone and determine if it needs to be set. No, they did not always set bones properly in the past and it resulted in problems for many more people.

Complications from Fractures | Doctor | Patient.co.uk

Just because they did things a certain way in the past, doesn't mean that we should continue to do it that way. Some things aren't needed, such as an MRI, in most cases. And in other cases an x-ray isn't even needed. But in most cases, to ensure that the patient won't have to worry about future problems, particularly due to misalignment, an x-ray will be needed.

And personally, I want to see an NHC so getting rid of insurance companies when it comes to the majority of medical treatment would be great from my POV.

 

[roguenuke]

Of course you can find extreme examples. I'm not sure what comparing how you get treatment for a broken knee when you are in Bahrain with breaking a finger in Portland Oregon accomplishes but you seems to think it shows something.

I'm not. I'm saying that most people judge whether to go to the doctor to begin with by the severity of the injury. But a broken finger would still hurt. It may not hurt as bad as a broken knee, but still. And where the injury occurred wouldn't change the level of pain a person is in. It may change treatment options. For example, there is no hospital closer to me than 15 minutes with only light traffic (which in SD is not too often). I know because we just had to take my brother for an appendectomy last month. The military hospital is basically the same distance as the closest civilian hospital. However, not everyone can go to every hospital because of the kind of insurance they have. If I went to a civilian hospital, especially with a Navy hospital so close, it would cost us extra money. And some hospitals offer their own insurance plans for using their hospital, while some insurance plans only work with certain hospitals/providers.

 

[Buck Ewer]

Don't France and Germany have universal healthcare? Why do they even need health insurance companies, isn't everything already covered?

Some people buy supplemental insurance to add to the universal coverage.

 

[LowDown]

Back in the '60s every little town built a hospital in order to be able to benefit from Medicare. People loved it because they could use these little hospitals as nursing homes. They'd tell the doctor that mom had lost her spark, dump her off at the town hospital and then go to Vegas for a week. Some of the old people were left in the hospitals for months at a time.

So then the government saw the abuse, but no one considered that maybe government in medical care wasn't such a good idea. Instead, big waves of regulations and requirements came in. Requirements for everything from medical record keeping to how many fire doors were built into the hospital. More than an effort to get rid of abuse, it was a deliberate attempt to run up the cost of running a hospital so that these little hospitals could not keep up. It worked, a lot of them shut down. But guess what. The regulations that ran up the costs were never retired. Most of them are still in place, and every year more are added.

Prior to Medicare doctors didn't keep the kind of detailed medical records they do now. All of that came in as a government requirement -- the doctors had to have records proving that care was necessary and had been provided. The requirement for detailed medical records is a big chunk of the cost of running a hospital. Regulation and requirements like that extend into everything the hospital does.

So if you want to know why American medicine is so expensive there's a big part of the answer.

Of course, we did benefit from this. All that money being poured into the field by third parties sparked a lot of innovation and advancement of the science.

 

[Buck Ewer]

BINGO. The faux morality of the limosouine liberal( which in my experience is most of them)

" Hey you - Uncle Sam- go take care of those poor sick people,..... I couldn't be bothered...oh and charge the bill to those evil rich people'

So... those evil rich liberals in their expensive "limousines" want the gubmint to help the poor and then send the bill to themselves?????
Do you have any idea how stupid you sound?
BINGO!:lamo:lamo:lamo

 

[Henrin]

So... those evil rich liberals in their expensive "limousines" want the gubmint to help the poor and then send the bill to themselves?????
Do you have any idea how stupid you sound?
BINGO!:lamo:lamo:lamo

I don't imagine you understand how they benefit from boosting economic activity, do you? What could the benefit be to a man that can get himself more consumers with the assistance of the taxpayers? Hint: I gave you the answer.

 

[Glen Contrarian]

Well, not all the doctors are military, at least not all those being used by civilians/dependents under TriCare. The military members generally only go to the military docs though.

However, the rest you are right about. I just took my son to NTC yesterday for a followup. They are worried that he may have asthma, allergies, or both, plus since he's in Kindergarten, he is picking up colds every few weeks. I don't have to worry about whether my "insurance" will pay for any testing his doctor may feel he needs. Plus, everything is basically in one or two places for us, either at the NTC clinic or at Balboa. Unless it is something completely rare, it is done there. Heck, while on the ship, they ended up mistakenly doing the wrong test for my blood disorder and once caught, just redid it. This test costs thousands in the civilian medical world.

True - not all are military doctors, though they all work for the military (unless they've started - horrors! - contracting out now like they have the nursing staff at my local Naval hospital).

Well said!

 

[roguenuke]

True - not all are military doctors, though they all work for the military (unless they've started - horrors! - contracting out now like they have the nursing staff at my local Naval hospital).

Well said!

I don't think their contracted, but yes, that would definitely not be good.

 

[mak2]

Yes, the good ones.

Do you know a doctor that practices it while ignoring profit based medicine?

 

[Gimmesometruth]

Back in the '60s every little town built a hospital in order to be able to benefit from Medicare. People loved it because they could use these little hospitals as nursing homes. They'd tell the doctor that mom had lost her spark, dump her off at the town hospital and then go to Vegas for a week. Some of the old people were left in the hospitals for months at a time.

So then the government saw the abuse, but no one considered that maybe government in medical care wasn't such a good idea. Instead, big waves of regulations and requirements came in. Requirements for everything from medical record keeping to how many fire doors were built into the hospital. More than an effort to get rid of abuse, it was a deliberate attempt to run up the cost of running a hospital so that these little hospitals could not keep up. It worked, a lot of them shut down. But guess what. The regulations that ran up the costs were never retired. Most of them are still in place, and every year more are added.

Prior to Medicare doctors didn't keep the kind of detailed medical records they do now. All of that came in as a government requirement -- the doctors had to have records proving that care was necessary and had been provided. The requirement for detailed medical records is a big chunk of the cost of running a hospital. Regulation and requirements like that extend into everything the hospital does.

So if you want to know why American medicine is so expensive there's a big part of the answer.

Of course, we did benefit from this. All that money being poured into the field by third parties sparked a lot of innovation and advancement of the science.

So your argument is that US health costs are @ 30% than single payer sytems....because the medical record keeping system is more burdensome that in Canada or Taiwan or England or most EU states?

Do you have ANY documentation proving this?

 

[Heebie Jeebie]

Some people buy supplemental insurance to add to the universal coverage.

Then it doesn't sound very universal if you need to buy supplemental insurance.

 

[Heebie Jeebie]

I'm not. I'm saying that most people judge whether to go to the doctor to begin with by the severity of the injury. But a broken finger would still hurt. It may not hurt as bad as a broken knee, but still. And where the injury occurred wouldn't change the level of pain a person is in. It may change treatment options. For example, there is no hospital closer to me than 15 minutes with only light traffic (which in SD is not too often). I know because we just had to take my brother for an appendectomy last month. The military hospital is basically the same distance as the closest civilian hospital. However, not everyone can go to every hospital because of the kind of insurance they have. If I went to a civilian hospital, especially with a Navy hospital so close, it would cost us extra money. And some hospitals offer their own insurance plans for using their hospital, while some insurance plans only work with certain hospitals/providers.

So let me ask you another question. If you had an injury that required a specialist, and you knew a great one in the area of expertise required, would you do any research to find out what hospitals they had privileges or just rush to the nearest hospital?

 

[Heebie Jeebie]

Yes, the good ones.

Really? They been in business long not making a profit?

 

[mak2]

Did you even look it up?

Really? They been in business long not making a profit?

 

[mak2]

You mean like trauma patients are rushed to the nearest hospital being provided with a list of cost to service analysis and choosing which trauma center they prefer or is having a big sale on vascular surgery this week? Or maybe the EMT's just try to stabilize and transport?

So let me ask you another question. If you had an injury that required a specialist, and you knew a great one in the area of expertise required, would you do any research to find out what hospitals they had privileges or just rush to the nearest hospital?

 

[Heebie Jeebie]

You mean like trauma patients are rushed to the nearest hospital being provided with a list of cost to service analysis and choosing which trauma center they prefer or is having a big sale on vascular surgery this week? Or maybe the EMT's just try to stabilize and transport?

No I mean like when you hear something pop in your knee or when you break your collarbone for the third time or when you lung collapses or when you feel chest pains. You know, when it's not an extreme case offered as the standard situation only to bolster a failed argument.