• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

The real history of modern Ukraine

joluoto

DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 8, 2020
Messages
8,153
Reaction score
4,077
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Progressive
According to the coward in the Kremlin Ukraine was created by Russia or the Bolsheviks and is not a "real nation". That is not true, Ukraine was first declared as a nation by Ukrainians in 1917. Ukraine was during late WW1 and the Russian Civil War a battelground between the Ukrainian nationalists, the Central Powers (until their defeat), the Red Army, the White Army, the Black Army (Makhno's Anarchists), various Green (peasant) Armies and the Poles.

And while they all fought over Ukraine they all also persecuted the Ukrainian Jews, one of the many dark chapters of Ashkenazi Jewish history.



But one thing Ukraine as a nation wasn't. was an invention by anyone else than the Ukrainians themselves.
 

Mycroft

Genius is where you find it.
DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 27, 2011
Messages
89,915
Reaction score
38,835
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
According to the coward in the Kremlin Ukraine was created by Russia or the Bolsheviks and is not a "real nation". That is not true, Ukraine was first declared as a nation by Ukrainians in 1917. Ukraine was during late WW1 and the Russian Civil War a battelground between the Ukrainian nationalists, the Central Powers (until their defeat), the Red Army, the White Army, the Black Army (Makhno's Anarchists), various Green (peasant) Armies and the Poles.

And while they all fought over Ukraine they all also persecuted the Ukrainian Jews, one of the many dark chapters of Ashkenazi Jewish history.



But one thing Ukraine as a nation wasn't. was an invention by anyone else than the Ukrainians themselves.

"Modern"???

You went back more than a hundred years.

I thought you were going to talk about the corruption in that country in the last two or three decades.
 

FreedomFromAll

Political Parties = Corruption
DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 16, 2011
Messages
18,997
Reaction score
5,930
Location
New Mexico USA
Gender
Male
"Modern"???

You went back more than a hundred years.

I thought you were going to talk about the corruption in that country in the last two or three decades.
You just cannot stop stumping for Putin, can you?
 

Juin

Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 4, 2021
Messages
8,037
Reaction score
2,501
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
According to the coward in the Kremlin Ukraine was created by Russia or the Bolsheviks and is not a "real nation". That is not true, Ukraine was first declared as a nation by Ukrainians in 1917. Ukraine was during late WW1 and the Russian Civil War a battelground between the Ukrainian nationalists, the Central Powers (until their defeat), the Red Army, the White Army, the Black Army (Makhno's Anarchists), various Green (peasant) Armies and the Poles.

And while they all fought over Ukraine they all also persecuted the Ukrainian Jews, one of the many dark chapters of Ashkenazi Jewish history.



But one thing Ukraine as a nation wasn't. was an invention by anyone else than the Ukrainians themselves.



I will say the Ukrainian Nation exists as a fact, whether anyone, including Ukrainians, declare it or not. If that is what Putin was dismissing then I cannot see how he is correct.

But the Ukrainian State is a whole other matter. Crimea, for one, was gratuituously added to the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic by Kruschev. It is also disputable whether the Ukrainian State is entitled to its Russophone south and the Donbass
 

joluoto

DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 8, 2020
Messages
8,153
Reaction score
4,077
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Progressive
I will say the Ukrainian Nation exists as a fact, whether anyone, including Ukrainians, declare it or not. If that is what Putin was dismissing then I cannot see how he is correct.

But the Ukrainian State is a whole other matter. Crimea, for one, was gratuituously added to the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic by Kruschev. It is also disputable whether the Ukrainian State is entitled to its Russophone south and the Donbass
The majority of the people of the Russophone south identifies as Ukrainian. Ukrainian identity doesn't follow the linguistic lines.
 

Juin

Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 4, 2021
Messages
8,037
Reaction score
2,501
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
The majority of the people of the Russophone south identifies as Ukrainian. Ukrainian identity doesn't follow the linguistic lines.


I beg to differ.
 

FreedomFromAll

Political Parties = Corruption
DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 16, 2011
Messages
18,997
Reaction score
5,930
Location
New Mexico USA
Gender
Male
I didn't say a word about Putin. Why did YOU bring him up?
FFS you keep repeating Putin propaganda for him. You just mentioned corruption in Ukraine, it's the same as what Putin is saying. And you seem to jump at the chance to defend Putins war for him..in every thread.
 

Mycroft

Genius is where you find it.
DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 27, 2011
Messages
89,915
Reaction score
38,835
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
FFS you keep repeating Putin propaganda for him. You just mentioned corruption in Ukraine, it's the same as what Putin is saying. And you seem to jump at the chance to defend Putins war for him..in every thread.
I don't give a rat's ass what Putin says. The corruption in Ukraine is fact.
 

joluoto

DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 8, 2020
Messages
8,153
Reaction score
4,077
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Progressive
The coward in the Kremlin should read more history indeed.

 

FreedomFromAll

Political Parties = Corruption
DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 16, 2011
Messages
18,997
Reaction score
5,930
Location
New Mexico USA
Gender
Male
I don't give a rat's ass what Putin says. The corruption in Ukraine is fact.
It's such an odd time to make such an assertion and have it conveniently mirror what Putin's propaganda machine is pumping out. Did you think that no one would notice the obvious?
 

Mycroft

Genius is where you find it.
DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 27, 2011
Messages
89,915
Reaction score
38,835
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
It's such an odd time to make such an assertion and have it conveniently mirror what Putin's propaganda machine is pumping out. Did you think that no one would notice the obvious?
shrug. I face facts. Why don't you?
 

radioman

feckless bon vivant
DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 26, 2013
Messages
5,430
Reaction score
4,346
Location
lotusland
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Liberal
Yet you constantly share lies manufactured to harm the US.
I'm just guessing, but I think many Trumpsters hate Ukraine because Zelensky didn't bend a knee to Trump.
If Zelensky had agreed to announce a phony investigation into Biden, we wouldn't be seeing this vitriol directed at Ukraine.
 

FreedomFromAll

Political Parties = Corruption
DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 16, 2011
Messages
18,997
Reaction score
5,930
Location
New Mexico USA
Gender
Male
I'm just guessing, but I think many Trumpsters hate Ukraine because Zelensky didn't bend a knee to Trump.
If Zelensky had agreed to announce a phony investigation into Biden, we wouldn't be seeing this vitriol directed at Ukraine.
That would take a rationale that Trump-inspired traitors do not have. In reality, Trump hates Ukraine so they hate Ukraine. And Trump hates Ukraine because Putin hates Ukraine. So really it's Putin's propaganda that's to blame for their hate on Ukraine.
 

Checkerboard Strangler

Meat with eyes!
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
60,404
Reaction score
42,212
Location
Los Angeles
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Skype just said that SKYPE phone calls to telephone numbers in Ukraine are now FREE.
So IF you have a Skype TELEPHONE service subscription you can now call telephone numbers in Ukraine for free.

Skype phone Ukraine.jpg
 

Checkerboard Strangler

Meat with eyes!
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
60,404
Reaction score
42,212
Location
Los Angeles
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Can we please get someone to put Gen. Mike Flynn in the driver's seat of a Russian tank in Ukraine?
 

Grand Mal

Russian warship, go f*** yourself!
DP Veteran
Joined
May 6, 2013
Messages
46,027
Reaction score
27,392
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Liberal
According to the coward in the Kremlin Ukraine was created by Russia or the Bolsheviks and is not a "real nation". That is not true, Ukraine was first declared as a nation by Ukrainians in 1917. Ukraine was during late WW1 and the Russian Civil War a battelground between the Ukrainian nationalists, the Central Powers (until their defeat), the Red Army, the White Army, the Black Army (Makhno's Anarchists), various Green (peasant) Armies and the Poles.

And while they all fought over Ukraine they all also persecuted the Ukrainian Jews, one of the many dark chapters of Ashkenazi Jewish history.



But one thing Ukraine as a nation wasn't. was an invention by anyone else than the Ukrainians themselves.

It's odd how so many rightists agree with Russia that Ukraine has no right to sovereignty but insist that Taiwan is a legitimate independent country.
 

joluoto

DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 8, 2020
Messages
8,153
Reaction score
4,077
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Progressive


This episode summarizes the history of Ukraine during the Soviet era. Touches on the Holodomor and the slaughter that was World War 2 in Ukraine.
 

Juin

Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 4, 2021
Messages
8,037
Reaction score
2,501
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
It's odd how so many rightists agree with Russia that Ukraine has no right to sovereignty but insist that Taiwan is a legitimate independent country.



I am a rightist and certified Trumpist but am afraid differ with you a little. I will say everyone has a right to sovereignty. Whether one actually gets to be sovereign is a whole other matter. It tends to be earned at times. Bought at others. Or gifted in other cases.

Ukraine as a nation is independent. And will stay independent if it can kick Russia's ass. Unfortunately sometimes that is what it takes. The Ukrainian state is a whole other matter. It has ethnic Russian minorities to the east who want out. They have same rights to independence. And may get it if their sponsor- the Russian Federation- manages to defeat the Ukrainian Army.

Taiwan is independent. I am not sure how that is a matter in dispute. More importantly, Taiwan has a powerful sponsor in the person of the American Imperium. That is a good sponsor. It guarantees that Taiwan will stay independent.

Now Quebec....... :) No sponsor, no independence. de Gaulle was too broke to sponsor Quebec's independence
 

Rogue Valley

Putin = War Criminal
DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 18, 2013
Messages
81,441
Reaction score
66,429
Location
Barsoom
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Kyiv was a flourishing capital city before Moscow was even a tiny settlement on the Moskva River.
 
Top Bottom