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The Qur'an clearly links 'jihad' with fighting.

gboisjo said:
If tens of millions of Jews hadn't been slaughtered by European Jew haters in the 30's and 40's, we wouldn't be talking about Israel.

They ran for there lives, it won't happen again. Its just a matter of time before Hamas, Hezbollah and Iran are ended.

I can't wait for it to happen.
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If Israel hadn’t decided it was entitled to steal its neighbors’ land and tried to wipe out villages that were living in peace with their Jewish neighbors—like Deir Yassin—the conflict would not exist.

Uh….no, they didn’t, seeing as most showed up after the Nazis had been defeated. They didn’t have anyone to run from anymore.

Israel lacks the power to “end” Iran. It also has repeatedly failed to “end” Hamas and Hezbollah.
 
Koala said:
Whoa, whoa who, qatl and jihad are not used interchangeably. Every word is chosen because it is the most appropriate word for that situation, and there are layers of meaning to the selection of every word, to most precisely convey the intended and appropriate meaning -- that is in fact one of the textual miracles of the Quran . The specific and precise meanings, connotations that can be derived from the particular word's use in that verse have been studied by people with far more knowledge, to produce tafseers which are contextualization's of the Quran to help people understand the Quran.

Youve actually just unknowingly proven why a tafseer of this verse is required, instead of your own interpratation of it, and why misinterpretation of these verses are so likely and so dangerous!
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You forgot to add "nuanced". That's usually included in the dodge.

Anyone who reads those verses honestly couldn't possibly think that the two aren't used interchangeably. And, if you want to invoke scholarly 'interpretation', then explain why the following scholars have interpreted 'jihad' as fight/fought:

9:16, 9:19, 9:20, 9:24 - Muhammad Sarwar and Mohsin Khan.
9:41 - Muhammad Sarwar.
9:44 - Yusuf Ali, Muhammad Sarwar and Mohsin Khan.
 
Koala said:
Whoa, whoa who, qatl and jihad are not used interchangeably.
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Another example:

Verses 2:216-218 pick up the subject of fighting where 2:190-193 left off, using the word 'qatl' in 2:216 and 2:217, but then switching to 'jihad' in 2:218:
  • Yusuf Ali (and others) - "Fighting is prescribed for you ... "
  • Pickthall - "Warfare is ordained for you ... "
  • Mohsin Khan (b. 1927), a well known Islamic scholar, has editorialized his translation by directly associating 'jihad' with 'qatl' "Jihad (holy fighting in Allah's Cause) is ordained for you ... "
Verse 2:217 uses 'qatl' four times.

Verse 2:218 finishes this series with three scholars yielding to the obvious context of 'jihad' being used in terms of fighting:

Sahih International: Indeed, those who have believed and those who have emigrated and fought in the cause of Allah - those expect the mercy of Allah. And Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

Pickthall: Lo! those who believe, and those who emigrate (to escape the persecution) and strive in the way of Allah, these have hope of Allah's mercy. Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

Yusuf Ali: Those who believed and those who suffered exile and fought (and strove and struggled) in the path of Allah,- they have the hope of the Mercy of Allah: And Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

Shakir: Surely those who believed and those who fled (their home) and strove hard in the way of Allah these hope for the mercy of Allah and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

Muhammad Sarwar: The believers and the Emigrants from Mecca who fight for the cause of God, indeed have hope in receiving the mercy of God; God is All-forgiving and All-merciful.

Mohsin Khan: Verily, those who have believed, and those who have emigrated (for Allah's Religion) and have striven hard in the Way of Allah, all these hope for Allah's Mercy. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most-Merciful.

Arberry: But the believers, and those who emigrate and struggle in God's way -- those have hope of God's compassion; and God is All-forgiving, All-compassionate.


Face it - jihad and qatl ARE CLEARLY used interchangeably.
 
Koala said:
no killing of non-combatants
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Are you familiar with the fate of the Banu Quraiza tribe?

Mohamed oversaw the slaughter of all males of fighting age (hundreds killed - all beheaded), the enslavement of their families, and the confiscation of their property. Their crime, you ask? They refused to fight for Mohamed against the Pagans and their allies in the Battle of the Trench. NOTE: They did NOTHING to aid the Pagans. In other words, they fit the description of "non-combatant" in every way.

And don't even think of invoking the so-called Charter of Medina. The Pagans were doing nothing other than fighting back against the Muslims for having made war on them. There was no obligation or reason for the Banu Quraiza to get involved in someone else's fight.
 
Koala said:
this type of jihad can never be started without a proper justification.
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Verse 9:29 puts paid to that lie:

Sahih International: Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled.
 
stevecanuck said:
Or, maybe I'm just exposing lies that Muslims tell about the religion of peace. Do you really not mind being lied to? I hate it, and I'll expose it every chance I get.
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Oh good grief! Why not start “exposing the lies” of other religions claiming to be peaceful by quoting various scriptures? “I come not to bring peace but a sword.” Mathew 10:34.
 
Nickyjo said:
Oh good grief! Why not start “exposing the lies” of other religions claiming to be peaceful by quoting various scriptures? “I come not to bring peace but a sword.” Mathew 10:34.
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Also, “Do not let anything that breathes remain alive.” Deuteronomy 20:16-17.
 
Nickyjo said:
Oh good grief! Why not start “exposing the lies” of other religions claiming to be peaceful by quoting various scriptures? “I come not to bring peace but a sword.” Mathew 10:34.
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Because there are over 80 active jihad groups in the world. The African Saleh is under attack by Islamists. Why? What is there about Islam that makes people join and support groups like the Muslim Brotherhood, al Qaeda, HAMAS, and ISIS - all perveyors of death in the name of their religion. The Qur'an advocates enforced Islamosupremacy from cover to cover. Here, chew on these:

 
Nickyjo said:
Also, “Do not let anything that breathes remain alive.” Deuteronomy 20:16-17.
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If there were dozens of White Supremacy groups spreading death and misery around the world, and they had a book that spelled out their objectives and mehods in clear detail, wouldn't you want the truth of that to be told?

That's the hurdle that the Western world has to clear - recognizing that there is a religion in the world that advocates dominance spread by violence. It's been on display for 1400 years, and it's well past time that it be understood for what it is.
 
stevecanuck said:
Or, maybe I'm just exposing lies that Muslims tell about the religion of peace. Do you really not mind being lied to? I hate it, and I'll expose it every chance I get.
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Except for the inconvenient fact that your narrative lacks any validity whatsoever…on pretty much every level.

As shown by your panicked blind denials whenever your attempts to pretend like Islam is any different than, say, Christianity crash and burn.
 
stevecanuck said:
If there were dozens of White Supremacy groups spreading death and misery around the world, and they had a book that spelled out their objectives and mehods in clear detail, wouldn't you want the truth of that to be told?

That's the hurdle that the Western world has to clear - recognizing that there is a religion in the world that advocates dominance spread by violence. It's been on display for 1400 years, and it's well past time that it be understood for what it is.
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Those were called “the nations of Europe”, as it turns out. Your inability to recognize that reality is comical.
 
stevecanuck said:
Because there are over 80 active jihad groups in the world. The African Saleh is under attack by Islamists. Why? What is there about Islam that makes people join and support groups like the Muslim Brotherhood, al Qaeda, HAMAS, and ISIS - all perveyors of death in the name of their religion. The Qur'an advocates enforced Islamosupremacy from cover to cover. Here, chew on these:

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Oh look, yet another post that refuses to acknowledge Muslims are the ones doing the vast majority of fighting and dying against groups like ISIS….instead of flocking to them, as your narrative alleges they should be.

Israel, the “Jewish state” has murdered more civilians in a single year than Hamas has in its entire existence.
 
stevecanuck said:
If there were dozens of White Supremacy groups spreading death and misery around the world, and they had a book that spelled out their objectives and mehods in clear detail, wouldn't you want the truth of that to be told?

That's the hurdle that the Western world has to clear - recognizing that there is a religion in the world that advocates dominance spread by violence. It's been on display for 1400 years, and it's well past time that it be understood for what it is.
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Why don't you take your truths to a local mosque instead of a debate forum. You might face some actual opposition though.
 
stevecanuck said:
If there were dozens of White Supremacy groups spreading death and misery around the world, and they had a book that spelled out their objectives and mehods in clear detail, wouldn't you want the truth of that to be told?

That's the hurdle that the Western world has to clear - recognizing that there is a religion in the world that advocates dominance spread by violence. It's been on display for 1400 years, and it's well past time that it be understood for what it is.
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And then what do we do after we attain your level of enlightenment? Did Britain attack the faith of or ban Catholics because of IRA terror? There are one billion Muslims in the world. That several of them haven’t forgotten the Crusades, the Iraq invasion should concern us, but trashing their religion is absurd.
 
Nickyjo said:
And then what do we do after we attain your level of enlightenment? Did Britain attack the faith of or ban Catholics because of IRA terror? There are one billion Muslims in the world. That several of them haven’t forgotten the Crusades, the Iraq invasion should concern us, but trashing their religion is absurd.
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Bringing up wars from 800-900 years ago is an indication of not having much material to work with.
 
Mulefoot said:
Bringing up wars from 800-900 years ago is an indication of not having much material to work with.
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I don’t understand. But as with Judaism, there was a long history attacks on Islam in and from the west, from the Crusades to the Spanish Inquisition to the betrayal of our Arab allies after WWI with Britain and France dividing the Middle East among them to the installation of the Shah to the phoniness and arrogance of the Iraq war. None of this justifies terror, but it can help us fight it.
 
Nickyjo said:
And then what do we do after we attain your level of enlightenment? Did Britain attack the faith of or ban Catholics because of IRA terror?
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This false equivalence again?

I've shown countless examples over the years here in which Muslims have committed acts of terrorism in accordance with commands from the Qur'an and the actions of Mohamed. He had every male of fighting age from the Banu Quraiza tribe of Yathrib beheaded, and you know mujahadin have followed that example.

Now it's your turn to list the wars and acts of violence that you can attribute to Jesus (NOT actions of Christians who CLAIM to be acting for Jesus, but actual examples of Jesus).

Nickyjo said:
There are one billion Muslims in the world. That several of them haven’t forgotten the Crusades, the Iraq invasion should concern us, but trashing their religion is absurd.
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I'm not trashing it. I'm quoting it. Verse 8:55 says, "Unbelievers are the lowest of God's creatures". Is it "trashing" Islam to state the truth? Have I made up anything that's not true?
 
stevecanuck said:
What part of 'debate forum' confuses you.
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Childish retort.
stevecanuck said:
What would you hope for as a result?
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Would hope to see if you had the courage of your convictions. Gotta admit it's pretty safe spouting your bs as an anonymous poster. The real challenge is taking out to the streets. Or better yet, book a flight to Iran.
 
Nickyjo said:
but trashing their religion is absurd.
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What does that mean? Am I making anything up, or am I simply pointing out what the Qur'an says?

If I were to read My Kampf, I'm sure I would find ample reason to "trash" it as well, and for exactly the same reasons.
 
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