• Please read the Announcement concerning missing posts from 10/8/25-10/15/25.
  • This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

The Question of Jake or John [W:35]

It is not arbitrary, you need to look up the definition of that word.
We are using different definitions; the word has more than one. You are thinking "capricious"; I am thinking "imperious". The mass of an atom of carbon is not arbitrary, but our measurement-units are.

I ask pro-life people all the time for some compelling (legal) reasons they could offer the courts to reverse the decision in RvW or the US Code definition of person that informs our laws regarding abortion. So....what could they put forth that would change the current definition?
You've already seen a major example posted here by Ikari in #243. I'm not in the least interested in thinking up arguments that favor abortion opponents; even that mad "make pregnancy illegal" notion was presented without offering any supporting "why" other than "if such a law existed, it could be used to prevent abortion". By the way, please note that the notion of sentencing a woman to carry a pregnancy to term is fully possible in legal theory; all it needs is a less-mad law under which a woman who doesn't want to be pregnant could receive such a sentence. I'm not about to try thinking of a sane law for that purpose!
 
You not understanding what's written or not reading far enough is not my problem.
Describing yourself, are you? It is a fact that every organism has a preferred environment. When we can take a typical muscle cell, and move it to a Petri dish that provides a close match to its preferred environment, we can get it to multiply enough that researchers expect we can one day replace farm animals as sources of meat. It would not be possible to do that if the specialized cell failed to qualify as an organism!

There are clear biological distinctions in the types of cells
which has nothing to do with the fact that each such cell has a preferred environment, and can survive/thrive just fine in an alternate version of that environment.

and you just choose to ignore them for the convenience of your personal argument...
I most certainly are not ignoring relevant facts that were discovered after you learned biology. But you are certainly ignoring those facts.

which means NOTHING to the majority of the pro-life people you need to sway.
It is not my goal to sway the brainwashed. It is my goal to render their arguments useless, and thereby render them impotent in the Overall Abortion Debate.

The fact that you cling so tightly to your personal, canned agenda and dont recognize this is exactly why you do not have the influence that you are, in real life, mind-boggled not to have actually effected in the pro-life community. lol
Oh, are you having better results, swaying the brainwashed?

You were making claims that cells with human DNA HAD to be 'living organisms.'
I'm almost certain I specified living cells. And I still make that claim. See again the first paragraph above.

By using the corpse as an example, I proved you were wrong in black and white.
Not hardly.
 
We are discussing abortion ONLY. If you can change the moral objections of pro-life supporters with moral or religious objections with objective science/law, you have yet to prove it.
Yet I have never claimed that was my goal; you are trying to make it my goal, like putting words in my mouth. I refuse to accept that; my goal is to provide the data that shows their moral and/or religious objections to abortion are inherently flawed. What they believe or not won't change the data and results one bit. In the long term, with respect to educating the young, verifiable data is more important than flawed claims.

As we have continually pointed out...ALL your objective 'facts' so far do not and factually "have not" significantly changed those beliefs and objections.
And I have mentioned almost as often that the brainwashed cannot be expected to change, and that changing the brainwashed is not my goal. Nor do any pro-choicers need that goal in the long run!

We already have a law based on many objective, biological facts. Obviously, those do not change the minds of pro-life people.
AGREED.

So unless you address their concerns with something else, you will continue to be mostly ineffective.
FALSE. Their concerns don't need to be addressed. But their ability to influence others does need to be addressed.
 
That doesn't address any of the reasons I gave for why personhood is irrelevant to abortion.
Ummmm....this is what you originally wrote:
Depends on why you're pro-choice.

For me, it is irrelevant if fetuses are persons. The important factor is that the woman's body is being used and harmed, therefore she has the same rights of self-protection that she would have in any other situation she was being used and harmed against her will, whether that's by a person, an animal, a fetus, or an inanimate object.

I still think the person is the one who's head survives, but I don't see how this would mean a dolphin could be declared a person. Personhood is just as much about *way* of functioning and self-perceiving and interaction as it is about sheer intelligence and sentience. While there are other creatures with considerably intelligence, they do not self-perceive or interact as humans.

While I don't think this necessarily means animals should have no rights, it does mean they wouldn't be classed as persons. However, if we created an AI who self-perceived and interacted in a human way, I would class them as persons.
I see a reason to allow abortion that is independent of personhood, but I don't see anything explaining exactly why personhood is irrelevant.

Meanwhile, the Constitution-plus-Amendments use the word "person" throughout, and don't use the word "human" even once. So, with respect to rights, like right-to-life, only persons have them under the most-basic Law of the Land. Logically, therefore, if abortion opponents want the unborn to have right-to-life, it is necessary for them to somehow establish the personhood of the unborn. So far it appears that the only way they can do it is by getting a new Constitutional Amendment passed. Amendments are powerful things, and can include such notions as modifying the 13th amendment and allowing women to be enslaved, to be treated as nothing more than life-support systems for the unborn.

Sometimes I hope that by describing the situation that baldly abortion opponents will realize the futility of their endeavor, and shut their yaps. Maybe it is impossible to change their minds, but if made clear it is equally impossible for them to win....
 
There's not enough numbers to add a "Personhood" Amendment.
That is now. Imagine a future in which their Propaganda has not been relentlessly countered, as new people enter the society, and old opinionated folks die. I want to help ensure there will never be the numbers for such an Amendment.
 
That is now. Imagine a future in which their Propaganda has not been relentlessly countered, as new people enter the society, and old opinionated folks die. I want to help ensure there will never be the numbers for such an Amendment.

How about we live in the now and take the next best step in front of us to take on extremism. I don't play in the future.
 
That seems pretty disingenous, since mostly I see frustration and repetition in your posts.
No matter what you see or don't see in my posts, occasional levity is not off-limits.

And it belies the claim you make directly below, that it IS important to you and if so, it's not rational to use fantastical "mad" ideas to effect change in an important issue.
Perhaps you missed an aspect of what I wrote, that I didn't spell out. If abortion opponents are willing to be that illogical to get what they want, and everyone else knows they are willing to be that illogical, then things become easier for everyone else to laugh at them and ignore them. I have mentioned several times that their blatherings deserve to be treated like the blatherings of members of the Flat Earth Society.

Again, let's see the compelling legal reasons (the only ones that would be valid) they could use to make such changes to abortion?
If you like science fiction, then you probably have encountered scenarios in which overpopulation leads to laws against inappropriate pregnancies. That part is easy enough to imagine. Only the second part, about sentencing women to carry pregnancies to term, needs an explanation. Well, while unrelated to population control, for a woman who doesn't want to be pregnant, such a punishment IS punishment. All the reasons why she might prefer to not have a child get crushed by forcing her to have a child. To twist the logic even more, because you are correct in pointing out that mandatory abortions make more sense than mandatory births if there is an anti-pregnancy law, those should be directed only at those who want to have children in an overpopulated world. Abortion opponents would be aghast, of course! But the net result is, the only births in that overpopulated scenario would be those of women whose contraception failed and didn't want to be pregnant. FAR fewer than happen now! (Worldwide, I think the figures are something like 130 million births and 30 million abortions each year --those numbers would get reversed.)

Are you having fun, yet?
 
No I'm not, not in any of my arguments. I dont believe the Constitution is going anywhere.
When you talk about changing the minds of the effectively-brainwashed, that is a "now" thing, short-term. When I talk about trying to minimize such brainwashing in the future, that is a long-term thing. And so long as there is no Constitutional Amendment eliminating any way to Amend the Constitution, it is at-risk, in the long term.

However if you are trying to undermine you own argument, that works for me, since factually abortion rates go down every year and in the 40+ yrs since the RvW decision, more women STILL choose to give birth more than abort.
I'm actually not especially interested in encouraging an increase in the abortion rate (despite my previous overpopulated-world msg); I just want it to stay legal/optional.

Not only that better birth control and better socio-economic conditions and fewer people being raised in repressive, strict, etc religious homes have also enabled those numbers and will continue to do so in the future. Our society in general is not going backwards with regard to reproduction in general.
That's nice.

Apparently "long term" your arguments seem to become less and less necessary.
There will always be unwanted pregnancies leading to a demand for abortions, so long as contraception is not 100% effective. And therefore there will be abortion opponents trying ban it, so long as their Propaganda, intended to infect new generations, is not countered.
 
How about we live in the now and take the next best step in front of us to take on extremism. I don't play in the future.
Abortion opponents are not extremists? Even when some of them murder abortion doctors? I maintain that their blatherings need to be relentlessly countered.
 
How about we live in the now and take the next best step in front of us to take on extremism. I don't play in the future.
It's better to do both. If you only thought just one move ahead in chess while I can think 8 moves ahead you'll lose. Don't ever just limit yourself like that.
 
Last edited:
We are using different definitions; the word has more than one. You are thinking "capricious"; I am thinking "imperious". The mass of an atom of carbon is not arbitrary, but our measurement-units are.

Please link to such a defintion.
 
You've already seen a major example posted here by Ikari in #243. I'm not in the least interested in thinking up arguments that favor abortion opponents; even that mad "make pregnancy illegal" notion was presented without offering any supporting "why" other than "if such a law existed, it could be used to prevent abortion". By the way, please note that the notion of sentencing a woman to carry a pregnancy to term is fully possible in legal theory; all it needs is a less-mad law under which a woman who doesn't want to be pregnant could receive such a sentence. I'm not about to try thinking of a sane law for that purpose!

So then you are just speculating, with no foundation in reality, that there are compelling legal arguments that the anti-abortion community could make to overturn current law?

Gee, I have better things to do than worry about pure speculation. I hear they might bring slavery back...quick! What shall we do to fight that? lol
 
Describing yourself, are you? It is a fact that every organism has a preferred environment. When we can take a typical muscle cell, and move it to a Petri dish that provides a close match to its preferred environment, we can get it to multiply enough that researchers expect we can one day replace farm animals as sources of meat. It would not be possible to do that if the specialized cell failed to qualify as an organism!


which has nothing to do with the fact that each such cell has a preferred environment, and can survive/thrive just fine in an alternate version of that environment.


I most certainly are not ignoring relevant facts that were discovered after you learned biology. But you are certainly ignoring those facts.


It is not my goal to sway the brainwashed. It is my goal to render their arguments useless, and thereby render them impotent in the Overall Abortion Debate.
.

None of that makes a single difference in the debate to change a pro-life mind. Now you are bobbing and weaving to qualify your position to someone who actually understands it. You have zero chance of doing so with people that have no interest in it and do not remotely see it relevant to their beliefs on abortion.

It is an irrelevant self-aggrandizing exercise and your next paragraph confirmed it:
It is not my goal to sway the brainwashed. It is my goal to render their arguments useless, and thereby render them impotent in the Overall Abortion Debate.
.
 
Last edited:
It is not my goal to sway the brainwashed. It is my goal to render their arguments useless, and thereby render them impotent in the Overall Abortion Debate.

Oh, are you having better results, swaying the brainwashed?

I'm almost certain I specified living cells. And I still make that claim. See again the first paragraph above.

Not hardly.

Thanks, that's been the most obvious thing in all your posts...your ego. It's an amazing ego too, since it's been demonstrated that your arguments are useless against a major position/belief held by a large number of pro-life supporters.

And yet you still trumpet your 'arguments' like they have achieved something. Which they have not. Wow, that is some blind egotism! Even pro-choice people have pointed out how arrogant and disrespectful you are of other people's beliefs....who says they are wrong to belief those things, btw? And it doesnt mean they are brainwashed. LOL, and you have not proved that their beliefs/moral objections are wrong :lamo

Also you specified "living organisms.' And were wrong.
 
I most certainly are not ignoring relevant facts that were discovered after you learned biology. But you are certainly ignoring those facts.

LMAO, oh yeah, ha ha ha, that's funny! I have entire libraries on evolution, microbiology, and epidemiology (my favorite!) I keep them current, my Kindle overfloweth. I have interpreted these facta and concepts for many levels of audiences over the years as a technical writer. I have worked with the data professionally.

Well done, another one of your 'spot on' conclusions :lamo
 
FALSE. Their concerns don't need to be addressed. But their ability to influence others does need to be addressed.

Are you killing them? Taking their children away at birth? Removing all religious institutions and philosphical teaching from the nation?

LOL....that was nothing more than the kind of doublespeak a politician uses....it is addressed, has been and will continue to be. And in general, your personal 'focus' on the issue is not the one that will continue to need to be addressed.

As you've been told, the science and legal aspects are clear....so all your posturing about those dont mean nearly enough. They do not address the key issue for most pro-lifers....their moral and religious objections.

How many more times do you want to try and reword the same objections to that? You fail each time.
 
Yet I have never claimed that was my goal; you are trying to make it my goal, like putting words in my mouth. I refuse to accept that; my goal is to provide the data that shows their moral and/or religious objections to abortion are inherently flawed. What they believe or not won't change the data and results one bit. In the long term, with respect to educating the young, verifiable data is more important than flawed claims.

You have failed. You have not 'proven objectively' that their religion's or philosophy's elevation of any stage of human is endowed with "special rights or characteristics" that separate it from all other species in any stage is 'wrong.'

Again, arrogance:
Sometimes I hope that by describing the situation that baldly abortion opponents will realize the futility of their endeavor, and shut their yaps. Maybe it is impossible to change their minds, but if made clear it is equally impossible for them to win....

You know absolutely nothing about faith and religion, do you? It's ludicrous that you believe facts about dolphins and aliens will make an iota of difference to people of strong faith.

Like I said, *many* in the US hold their personal beliefs and still support the pro-choice position. However, many do not and you dont even recognize the keys to what *would* influence those.
 
Last edited:
Perhaps you missed an aspect of what I wrote, that I didn't spell out. If abortion opponents are willing to be that illogical to get what they want, and everyone else knows they are willing to be that illogical, then things become easier for everyone else to laugh at them and ignore them. I have mentioned several times that their blatherings deserve to be treated like the blatherings of members of the Flat Earth Society.

In a nation full of Christians, Jews, Muslims, and others that have strong religious beliefs, you will have no influence and only insult those that do separate their politics from their beliefs.

Your disrespect covers all....and that will not win you a single thing. In case you havent noticed, except for GI and his interest in your personhood arguments, you could not even influence the pro-choice people here...you without exception insulted all.

And your disrespect is still just your persional opinion...you *cannot* prove that any of our religious or philosophical beliefs are wrong. So in the end, you are the one that is blathering ineffectively and looking ignorant....of other moral positions.
 
If you like science fiction, then you probably have encountered scenarios in which overpopulation leads to laws against inappropriate pregnancies. That part is easy enough to imagine. Only the second part, about sentencing women to carry pregnancies to term, needs an explanation. Well, while unrelated to population control, for a woman who doesn't want to be pregnant, such a punishment IS punishment. All the reasons why she might prefer to not have a child get crushed by forcing her to have a child. To twist the logic even more, because you are correct in pointing out that mandatory abortions make more sense than mandatory births if there is an anti-pregnancy law, those should be directed only at those who want to have children in an overpopulated world. Abortion opponents would be aghast, of course! But the net result is, the only births in that overpopulated scenario would be those of women whose contraception failed and didn't want to be pregnant. FAR fewer than happen now! (Worldwide, I think the figures are something like 130 million births and 30 million abortions each year --those numbers would get reversed.)

Failed argument. If using overpopulation as a reason *for* abortion, then for those that consider the unborn equal to born people...what's to stop you from killing the elderly, the disabled, the very young, etc etc etc next?

And by no means does it address any of the moral underpinnings of people's beliefs.
 
When you talk about changing the minds of the effectively-brainwashed, that is a "now" thing, short-term. When I talk about trying to minimize such brainwashing in the future, that is a long-term thing. And so long as there is no Constitutional Amendment eliminating any way to Amend the Constitution, it is at-risk, in the long term.


I'm actually not especially interested in encouraging an increase in the abortion rate (despite my previous overpopulated-world msg); I just want it to stay legal/optional.


That's nice.


There will always be unwanted pregnancies leading to a demand for abortions, so long as contraception is not 100% effective. And therefore there will be abortion opponents trying ban it, so long as their Propaganda, intended to infect new generations, is not countered.

All useless blather (as you seem to like to apply to your opponents.) No one said bc will prevent all pregnancies. No one said you wanted to increase abortion (it was a clear description, that can be backed up with data, that abortions are on the decline and your 'short term' theories are not valid or needed. And *I* have never talked about changing the minds of the brain-washed...that's your schtick.

So, an empty post just to read your own words?
 
Failed argument. If using overpopulation as a reason *for* abortion, then for those that consider the unborn equal to born people...what's to stop you from killing the elderly, the disabled, the very young, etc etc etc next?

And by no means does it address any of the moral underpinnings of people's beliefs.
I am curious. Are we overpopulated or going extinct. One poster is crystal clear that even the possession of a condom is reason for execution.
 
Ummmm....this is what you originally wrote:

I see a reason to allow abortion that is independent of personhood, but I don't see anything explaining exactly why personhood is irrelevant.

Meanwhile, the Constitution-plus-Amendments use the word "person" throughout, and don't use the word "human" even once. So, with respect to rights, like right-to-life, only persons have them under the most-basic Law of the Land. Logically, therefore, if abortion opponents want the unborn to have right-to-life, it is necessary for them to somehow establish the personhood of the unborn. So far it appears that the only way they can do it is by getting a new Constitutional Amendment passed. Amendments are powerful things, and can include such notions as modifying the 13th amendment and allowing women to be enslaved, to be treated as nothing more than life-support systems for the unborn.

Sometimes I hope that by describing the situation that baldly abortion opponents will realize the futility of their endeavor, and shut their yaps. Maybe it is impossible to change their minds, but if made clear it is equally impossible for them to win....

You don't get it, dude.

It doesn't matter if it's a person because even people do not have the right to infringe on the bodies of others. So whether a fetus is a person or not, it still doesn't have an inherent right to harm and live off a woman's body. Either it's not a person and removing it is no more of an ethical concern than removing a tumor, or it is a person and it is infringing on the woman's body and well-being, giving her the right to remove it anyway just like she would have with any other human who tried to infringe upon her body. That is why it is irrelevant.

I seriously don't even know what the hell you're talking about with all this.
 
My body would most certainly not be alive. My mind, however, is equivalent to a computer software program. You should know in this computerized age that computer programs can work on many different computers. So, how can you be certain that the personhood software associated with my mind couldn't be associated with a different body and brain, than the current one? Some such notion is not uncommon in various fictions.

A computer has nothing on the human brain at this point. This is just silly deflectionary tactics for things that don't fit into your buckets. And what is this fantasy nonsense of yours anyway? If you were aborted, who knows if your "soul" or "personality software" wouldn't end up in another body? Are you kidding me? That's just fictional nonsense you're using to try to deflect from an argument you cannot fit into your predetermined categories.

No, only the human part of my body was once that clump of cells.

Human life is human life

"Potential" and "actual" are still two different things, and there is a "backwards" thing that you might not have noticed you have done. Part of my body's personal past most certainly includes that clump-of-cells stage, but not every human entity at that stage has the potential you describe. Some of them become hydatidiform moles, for example. At least 65% of conceptions only have the potential to die, instead of lead to a successful live birth, most often because of fatally flawed DNA.

And as you show, nature takes care of that. There are lots of natural occurrences that stop a pregnancy from occurring or from being completed. Those are neither here nor there, we aren’t talking about those. We are, obviously, taking about the cases which result in the successful implantation and that would, left to nature, result in a healthy child.

Again, deflection arguments, deal with the actual argument, not things to make up in order to not deal with the actual argument.
It will only become a clever animal, a "feral child". See #96 of this Thread. It will not be able to process language, or do many other things that normal human persons can do, who experienced more than only "left to nature" during their development.

This is an idiotic argument. It will be “feral”, what are you talking about? Even kids who are given up for adoption learn to speak. This is just more nonsense of yours to try to dismiss something you cannot easily categorize.

The entirety of every argument I’ve ever seen you construct is built about making definitions and categories and dismissing anything that doesn’t fit into those because that which doesn’t fit into your little bins won’t bring about the conclusion you want. It’s just an argument in vacuum. Something you constructed that sounds so good in your head, but when presented to others, it doesn’t pan out that well. But instead of refining the argument, you merely make obtuse and dismissive argument in order to try to retain your buckets. It’s why even pro-choice people have a problem with your arguments. They are naïve and childish.

Nice try, but no cigar. Plus there is another entirely different reason why the "continuity" anti-abortion argument is nonsensical. Just pretend every human birth-event always yielded octuplets, instead of usually just one. That means in your neighborhood, every family trying to raise 3 kids would instead be raising 24, and so on. Massive overpopulation will be an inevitable consequence of that scenario. While we already have extremely good evidence that humans are not immune to a Malthusian Catastrophe, in that scenario we would be experiencing such catastrophes as regular events...

So let’s pretend things that don’t happen often, happen all the time and then look at it…it explodes. Let’s not also talk about how if such an absurd notion were to happen, that a whole host of other dynamics would likely also evolve alongside to create balance. Or how a society would actually act if humans gave birth to octuplets all the time. No, let’s just look at this one strict, inflexible way of looking at it because it supports my argument! :roll:

You’re grasping at straws, making up absurd notions, fiction, and ridiculous arguments all to avoid that which you cannot easily categorize.
 
That doesn't address any of the reasons I gave for why personhood is irrelevant to abortion.

The arguments you see here are constructed to deflect, not address.
 
Back
Top Bottom