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The problem with Trump's 'national emergency' plan is much bigger than any wall

Try looking past the next election. Just remember our warnings when the Dems declare their first emergency...

I have no problem with the Dems...or anyone else...declaring emergencies, as long as they don't violate the Constitution while doing so.

If the Dems want to try that...I say, go for it.
 
Yes, Congress and every President since Reagan has ignored the issues that sprung from the first Reagan amnesty. However this Wall is not the answer and that is the real problem. It is and will be a failed white elephant if it ever were to be built.

The Wall Fight is what Trump is interested in pursuing. Frankly I doubt he even wants the Wall itself, just the fight for it. The hard truth of it is that unauthorized immigrants provide a cheap labor pool and and any real efforts to deal with these issues from Reagan till now simply get chopped down by those more interested in cheap labor than any other Immigration Policy related issues. What side of that issue do you think Trump and the Trump Organization sit on? Hopefully this is an easy question for you to answer.

Funny how you state the "wall" will not work, but give no real solution. You instead ask me a question regarding cheap labor. I have stated that a continuous wall is not practical or needed in other threads. I have accept what the BP and ICE has stated that walls in certain locations work. Other areas need other methods ranging from high tech sensors, drones and increased number of agents.


As far as your question, for example you have heard of the migrant farm labor program? Seems you have not. There are ways to get "cheap" labor into the US for some jobs.

Your turn, What should the Dems propose?
 
Reading this and other threads makes me wonder if those complaining are doing do because it is Trump. It is pretty clear the illegal immigration into the US is a problem. The amount of illegal drugs is also a problem. Does it amount to a National Emergency, maybe not. However, the issue of illegal crossings into the US has been ignored by both sides of Congress. Congress seems to ignore the problems. Much like they ignore coming up with a budget on time.

That's exactly what's happening.
 
Sounds like the Trumpsters think the sky is falling and we need a wall.

We want the border secured. We won't accept open borders, like you want us to.
 
The symbolism alone changes us as a country forever.

The world knows we are struggling with our very own Taliban. A wall would be proof we have succumb.

Thank you for recognizing that Trump has no intention of stopping at 230 miles of New Human Border Barrier. If he is allowed to usurp the Article 1 powers of the Congress in this manner he will simply keep doing it for every Tom, Dick and Larry thing he wants including more new lengths of Human Border Barrier that have not gone through any sort of Congressional Appropriations process. The optics of such a Wall might not change the country forever but it might do just that and it would certainly be one more big chunk out of US position in the world which Trump is doing everything he possibly can do to destroy, whether within his Executive authorities or not.
 
Congress can stop a president from declaring an emergency with a veto proof majority.

The emergency powers act isn't a "bypass" of Congress. Congress passed the ****ing thing!...lol

Well, the way things are looking, the shoe could be on the other foot sooner rather than later. It is a dangerous precedent to set for a president to have the option to declare a national emergency every time Congress can't get a majority vote in his favor. You know your position would be flipped if it was a democratic president and a democratic majority in congress. If Trump isn't bluffing and does play that card, the same card will be used against a republican congressional minority in the near future and there will be little they can do to stop it. If it's true that conservative republicans are on the way to becoming a minority in this country, is it the wisest thing to do to encourage a republican president to set such a precedent? Couldn't that be used by democrats to stack the deck against republicans in the future? There's already a push to get rid of gerrymandering and to declare election day a national holiday, and both of these actions could easily be argued to enhance democracy rather than suppress it, while at the same time handicapping the republican party. The president going out with a middle finger to the liberals by flexing his muscles might ultimately end up doing far more damage to the future of the republican party than if he'd just admitted defeat and lived to fight another day.

Strategically, I don't think it's wise for republicans to escalate at this point. Ann Coulter is mistaken. Trump's base is going to do nothing but shrink. The tides are turning quickly, and the best course of action to give republicans a fighting chance in 2020 is to go moderate and make nice. Trump's ability to make enemies served him well in 2016, but after two years of bad press a new strategy is called for, and Trump is a one-trick pony. If he declares a national emergency we may very well see someone else on the republican ticket in 2020.
 
Sounds like the Trumpsters think the sky is falling and we need a wall.

I can't speak for "the Trumpsters", but I don't think the sky is falling. I think we have a humanitarian/security crisis on our southern border.

If you don't think so, I'd say you have your head in the sand (or you just don't care).
 
A veto proof majority.

A single vote majority in the House and 51 votes in the Senate, according to what I've read, is enough to pass a motion of disapproval.


Are you saying Trump can veto this and proceed unless 2/3 of senators vote against him ?
 
We want the border secured. We won't accept open borders, like you want us to.

No one wants open borders. That is common sense. Creating an emergency to get a wall is not.
 
Sounds like the Trumpsters think the sky is falling and we need a wall.

What is your solution to the illegal immigration and illegal drugs coming into this country? Of course Trump is not going to get a "Wall" from sea to shining sea. Walls can/do work in some areas. Other areas need different methods.
 
I have no problem with the Dems...or anyone else...declaring emergencies, as long as they don't violate the Constitution while doing so.

If the Dems want to try that...I say, go for it.

"...For instance, the president can, with the flick of his pen, activate laws allowing him to shut down many kinds of electronic communications inside the United States or freeze Americans’ bank accounts. Other powers are available even without a declaration of emergency, including laws that allow the president to deploy troops inside the country to subdue domestic unrest.

This edifice of extraordinary powers has historically rested on the assumption that the president will act in the country’s best interest when using them. With a handful of noteworthy exceptions, this assumption has held up. But what if a president, backed into a corner and facing electoral defeat or impeachment, were to declare an emergency for the sake of holding on to power? In that scenario, our laws and institutions might not save us from a presidential power grab. They might be what takes us down..."


When the first Dem president shuts down Fox New, their viewers will have a different view...
 
I can't speak for "the Trumpsters", but I don't think the sky is falling. I think we have a humanitarian/security crisis on our southern border.

If you don't think so, I'd say you have your head in the sand (or you just don't care).

And i would say there is no emergency on the southern border. Your head is full of Trump. Everyone cares about immigration. Maybe if Trump put forth a plan instead of repeating over and over again there is a crisis we need a wall something would get done.
 
Reading this and other threads makes me wonder if those complaining are doing do because it is Trump. It is pretty clear the illegal immigration into the US is a problem. The amount of illegal drugs is also a problem. Does it amount to a National Emergency, maybe not. However, the issue of illegal crossings into the US has been ignored by both sides of Congress. Congress seems to ignore the problems. Much like they ignore coming up with a budget on time.

This isn't true. This is disinformation you've been fed by conservative talking heads. Congress has not ignored the problem: In fact according to the United States Border Patrol, in the last 20 years apprehensions of illegals trying to cross the border is down more than 80%. Calling that a national emergency is silliness. What we've been doing has obviously been working. The "caravan" paranoia is nothing more than propaganda designed to frighten you into supporting something that isn't necessary for anything other than giving the current president a political win.
 
What is your solution to the illegal immigration and illegal drugs coming into this country? Of course Trump is not going to get a "Wall" from sea to shining sea. Walls can/do work in some areas. Other areas need different methods.

It is hard to say because Trump has not put out a plan. He just keeps repeating we need a wall. Where does he want it to go and what other measures should be taken and where. There was just a huge bust of fentynal coming into the US at the legal point of entry and it was stopped of course. That is how most drugs are coming in according to our government officials.
 
Under the law, he doesn't have to. It doesn't require some live, or die, dire emergency.

Yes, it does require an emergency, which is why he has to declare a national emergency.
 
This isn't true. This is disinformation you've been fed by conservative talking heads. Congress has not ignored the problem: In fact according to the United States Border Patrol, in the last 20 years apprehensions of illegals trying to cross the border is down more than 80%. Calling that a national emergency is silliness. What we've been doing has obviously been working. The "caravan" paranoia is nothing more than propaganda designed to frighten you into supporting something that isn't necessary for anything other than giving the current president a political win.

You be wrong. I do my own research from many sources. Numbers of crossing goes up. Numbers of crossing goes down. There is a lot of reasons. Some tied to economics. Some tied to situations in other countries.

With over 11 million illegals in the US (some over stayed visas), the US has a problem.
650 detained in two days in Arizona is not a problem to you?
https://www.foxnews.com/us/more-tha...hern-border-detained-in-arizona-over-two-days
 
It is hard to say because Trump has not put out a plan. He just keeps repeating we need a wall. Where does he want it to go and what other measures should be taken and where. There was just a huge bust of fentynal coming into the US at the legal point of entry and it was stopped of course. That is how most drugs are coming in according to our government officials.

I didn't ask you what Trump has proposed. I asked you what you would like to see done.
650 in Arizona crossed illegally in two days. Guess you see no problem with this.:mrgreen:
https://www.foxnews.com/us/more-tha...hern-border-detained-in-arizona-over-two-days
 
You be wrong. I do my own research from many sources. Numbers of crossing goes up. Numbers of crossing goes down. There is a lot of reasons. Some tied to economics. Some tied to situations in other countries.

With over 11 million illegals in the US (some over stayed visas), the US has a problem.
650 detained in two days in Arizona is not a problem to you?
https://www.foxnews.com/us/more-tha...hern-border-detained-in-arizona-over-two-days

Case in point: You believe that Fox News is a better authority on the number of apprehensions along the southern border than the U.S. Border Patrol.
 
Funny how you state the "wall" will not work, but give no real solution. You instead ask me a question regarding cheap labor. I have stated that a continuous wall is not practical or needed in other threads. I have accept what the BP and ICE has stated that walls in certain locations work. Other areas need other methods ranging from high tech sensors, drones and increased number of agents.


As far as your question, for example you have heard of the migrant farm labor program? Seems you have not. There are ways to get "cheap" labor into the US for some jobs.

Your turn, What should the Dems propose?

That has been discussed ad nauseam in many threads here. First, if the existence of the Migrant Farm Workers program were considered sufficient to the desires of American Capital, we wouldn't be here now would we? Oh by the way, our entire ex-border unauthorized immigrant problem at the Southern Border is now relegated to asylum seekers from three small Central American countries that we have been frigging up beyond all recognition for over a century.

In the first place, Immigration Policy is not Border Security and these half baked efforts at "lets make a deal" Legislation that try to pile all of the Immigration Policy chips of one set of constituent's on one end and then pile all of the Border Security Funds Appropriation chips of another set of constituents on the other end are in the main garbage legislation, an easy way for politicians to all claim victory and go home. The 2013 bill was at least a decent effort at crafting legislation but it was crafted in the Senate into an impossible situation for passage in the House. The GOP had the House which means the Hastert Rule was in effect which means the Bill was never going to be brought to the floor of the House for a vote no matter how much work Senators put into that Bill. Actually Newt Gingrich was the inventor of the Rule. I have no real idea why Hastert (now in jail) got hung with the title. At any rate, if there is one good reason why the GOP should NEVER be allowed to gain a majority in the House again it is surely their idiotic Hastert Rule.

As for what we should do:
On Immigration Policy,
- hire more immigration judges
- process asylum claims more rapidly while still considering the applicants and keep those that deserve to stay while sending back those that do not
- repurpose ICE to go after those that forge documents and funnel unauthorized immigrants into the labor pool
- stiffen penalties for everybody in the food chain of unauthorized immigrant labor

On Border Security,
- continue the repairs and refurbishments and gap closures on human physical barrier that currently exists from the 2006 Border Fence Act
- Add updated scanners at all POE's like the scanners that caught that trailer full of drugs at the Nogales POE
- add more and better drones at the border, more technology generally at the border
- add more CBP officers, more vehicles and more aircraft
- maybe AND I DO MEAN maybe add more Normandy where it makes sense

It should be noted that all of that would be much more effective and less costly than Trump's vanity Wall ever thought of being.

AND,
- Do something effective about drug addiction in this country. The source of this particular problem is the demand, not the supply. Perhaps toss some of the owners of Purdue Pharma in jail for the drug peddlers they are.
- Help those three Central American countries that we have helped drop down a rathole and where all of our ex-border issues on the Southern border originate to get back on their feet. Staggering to think that we now have negative unauthorized immigrant traffic from Mexico and nobody seems to think about why that is!
 
There isn't anything the courts can do, unless he's breaking the law.

CONGRESS PASSED THE DAMN ACT! i.e. this is, literally, authority that CONGRESS GAVE TO THE ****ING PRESIDENT!

Congress never imagined that a pud president like Trump would attempt to bastardize this law for strictly political ends … i.e. when no emergency exists.
 
That has been discussed ad nauseam in many threads here. First, if the existence of the Migrant Farm Workers program were considered sufficient to the desires of American Capital, we wouldn't be here now would we? Oh by the way, our entire ex-border unauthorized immigrant problem at the Southern Border is now relegated to asylum seekers from three small Central American countries that we have been frigging up beyond all recognition for over a century.

In the first place, Immigration Policy is not Border Security and these half baked efforts at "lets make a deal" Legislation that try to pile all of the Immigration Policy chips of one set of constituent's on one end and then pile all of the Border Security Funds Appropriation chips of another set of constituents on the other end are in the main garbage legislation, an easy way for politicians to all claim victory and go home. The 2013 bill was at least a decent effort at crafting legislation but it was crafted in the Senate into an impossible situation for passage in the House. The GOP had the House which means the Hastert Rule was in effect which means the Bill was never going to be brought to the floor of the House for a vote no matter how much work Senators put into that Bill. Actually Newt Gingrich was the inventor of the Rule. I have no real idea why Hastert (now in jail) got hung with the title. At any rate, if there is one good reason why the GOP should NEVER be allowed to gain a majority in the House again it is surely their idiotic Hastert Rule.

As for what we should do:
On Immigration Policy,
- hire more immigration judges
- process asylum claims more rapidly while still considering the applicants and keep those that deserve to stay while sending back those that do not
- repurpose ICE to go after those that forge documents and funnel unauthorized immigrants into the labor pool
- stiffen penalties for everybody in the food chain of unauthorized immigrant labor

On Border Security,
- continue the repairs and refurbishments and gap closures on human physical barrier that currently exists from the 2006 Border Fence Act
- Add updated scanners at all POE's like the scanners that caught that trailer full of drugs at the Nogales POE
- add more and better drones at the border, more technology generally at the border
- add more CBP officers, more vehicles and more aircraft
- maybe AND I DO MEAN maybe add more Normandy where it makes sense

It should be noted that all of that would be much more effective and less costly than Trump's vanity Wall ever thought of being.

AND,
- Do something effective about drug addiction in this country. The source of this particular problem is the demand, not the supply. Perhaps toss some of the owners of Purdue Pharma in jail for the drug peddlers they are.
- Help those three Central American countries that we have helped drop down a rathole and where all of our ex-border issues on the Southern border originate to get back on their feet. Staggering to think that we now have negative unauthorized immigrant traffic from Mexico and nobody seems to think about why that is!

Stop making sense. Put more succintly tho less thoroughly, these are the emergencies: drug addiction in the US, economic disaster in some Central American countries, and the Trump administration’s (i.e., Stephen Miller’s) idiotic and/or unlawful approach to immigration issues. The border situation is merely a symptom; the wall a distraction.
 
...The 2013 bill was at least a decent effort at crafting legislation but it was crafted in the Senate into an impossible situation for passage in the House. The GOP had the House which means the Hastert Rule was in effect which means the Bill was never going to be brought to the floor of the House for a vote no matter how much work Senators put into that Bill. Actually Newt Gingrich was the inventor of the Rule. I have no real idea why Hastert (now in jail) got hung with the title. At any rate, if there is one good reason why the GOP should NEVER be allowed to gain a majority in the House again it is surely their idiotic Hastert Rule...

Te Haster Rule is the single biggest reason nothing's getting done in DC and the general public has never heard about it. Making this a campaign issue will help the Dems win the support of Americans who are sick of the gridlock. And there's a lot of them...
 
"...For instance, the president can, with the flick of his pen, activate laws allowing him to shut down many kinds of electronic communications inside the United States or freeze Americans’ bank accounts. Other powers are available even without a declaration of emergency, including laws that allow the president to deploy troops inside the country to subdue domestic unrest.

This edifice of extraordinary powers has historically rested on the assumption that the president will act in the country’s best interest when using them. With a handful of noteworthy exceptions, this assumption has held up. But what if a president, backed into a corner and facing electoral defeat or impeachment, were to declare an emergency for the sake of holding on to power? In that scenario, our laws and institutions might not save us from a presidential power grab. They might be what takes us down..."


When the first Dem president shuts down Fox New, their viewers will have a different view...

I don't know if I agree that a Dem President would declare an emergency for the sake of holding on to power, but every past Dem President could have tried that if they wanted to.

Trump's use of the Act for an actual emergency doesn't change the possibility or ability of any President doing what you fear a Dem President might do.
 
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