The price tag on universal health care is in, it’s bigger than California’s budget

[AlbqOwl]

Re: The price tag on universal health care is in, it’s bigger than California’s budge

Isn't that basically the inverse of those who want it regardless of what it costs? I mean, technically, understanding how many people go into massive debt for healthcare reasons in America, and choose death over debt in America, couldn't one say about Right leaning analysis that it is untrustworthy because they *don't* want it - at any cost?

Before the federal government involved itself in healthcare, both healthcare and healthcare insurance were affordable for most. Those who couldn't pay still got treatment and were put on a manageable payment schedule that allowed them to pay it out at $10/month or what they could manage. I was once in the business of managing that aspect of healthcare.

The day the federal government started meddling with healthcare was the the prices started increasing dramatically and quickly became unaffordable for all who couldn't afford healthcare insurance.

Ditto for the federal government meddling with education.

Ditto for pretty much everything the federal government decides to meddle in regarding products or services.

 

[ludin]

Re: The price tag on universal health care is in, it’s bigger than California’s budge

Let understand your Beef here....

Believing States Right superseeds Federal Law, California (with democrats in super majority) yet without shutting down Conservative and Republicans (unlike other states) have decided their own faith and without meddling of big federal government.

They have calculated that by implementing statewide health Plan and negotiating with Big pharma (after all they will have 35 million customers and huge bulk buying power) they can provide cheaper health care than you can buy on your own. Which actually does make sense and fiscally Conservative, and States Rights that is basically conservatives wet dream.

So what is your exact problem? You should be applauding California decision. State Right and capitalism at its best.

Diving Mullah

yet it will cost them more than their entire state budget.
how do you expect them to pay for it?

the expect answer is higher taxes on working people.

California lawmakers lay out proposed universal health care plan

ol yea

Still missing, however, are the details that have bedeviled universal health care advocates for decades: how much it would cost taxpayers. And the plan will be difficult, if not impossible, to execute without permission from Washington to steer billions of federal Medicare and Medicaid dollars into a trust fund that covers everyone.

Single-payer healthcare could cost $400 billion to implement in California - LA Times

so at least 400b dollars.

•Of that, $200 billion of existing federal, state and local funds could be repurposed to go toward the single-payer system.
(if the federal government allows them to redirect medicare and Medicaid payments)
so they still need 200b in new taxes.

one solution is a 15% tax on employers earned income. which is a huge blow to businesses.

that of course is a fixed spending amount. the other issue they will face is doctors that refuse to accept payment and same with hospitals.
of course they still don't know how to pay for it.

 

[MTAtech]

Re: The price tag on universal health care is in, it’s bigger than California’s budge

it also doesn't cover a lot of things hence why people have to get medicare supplement services which run around 250-300 dollars a month.
:roll:

Medicare covers the big stuff. But you do have to pay deductibles and copayments. Just ask seniors if they like Medicare.

 

[zimmer]

Re: The price tag on universal health care is in, it’s bigger than California’s budge

Well, that makes sense...you probably hang around with a lot of conservative people, you being conservative yourself, and doctors don't like single payer systems because they can't charge out the wazoo for their services. It's got nothing to do with *your* health. We do lose a lot of doctors to America...that should tell you something, not about your system, but yours... This free market system is kinda ripping you off...

When you buy steak, do you pay a "wazoo" for it?
If you can buy it cheaper somewhere else, do you get it there?

With the free market, what has happened to the price of computers and cell phones? They've gotten better and cheaper. The product is good and service is good, or you contemplate changing services.

With the government controlling healthcare, you're ass ****ed. Like the Canadians are... unless they can escape to another country. You're at their mercy.

You do know how wonderful and responsive government is? The DMV? TSA? Why would this be any different?

 

[OlNate]

Re: The price tag on universal health care is in, it’s bigger than California’s budge

First I'd like to see free speech be a right in Kanuckistan. It ain't.

Man, it's great you're on today, I'm learning so much about my country!! I mean, all this time I've been believing that we have the right to free speech, because I was referring to the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms (section 2), when I was really waiting all my life to meet you, to let me know how truly oppressed we are up here... lol....

Good grief.

 

[Absentglare]

Re: The price tag on universal health care is in, it’s bigger than California’s budge

More "progressive math"? How, exactly, can about 18% of GDP be funded with a 2% tax increase on a portion of population?

EDIT: If that "progressive math" works out then a 12% tax increase on the ultra-wealthy would make everything "free".

We could cut that 18% of GDP in half with negotiating power if our system is of only average efficiency among OECD nations.

Why do you want to waste 9% of GDP while leaving tens of millions of Americans uninsured to be price gouged by the wealthy?

 

[ttwtt78640]

Re: The price tag on universal health care is in, it’s bigger than California’s budge

Much of the developed world has a system that you just described as "a great dream." I believe in America and I believe that America can achieve what other countries have succeeded at achieving.

Many of those folks are quite willing to pay a 30% to 50% effective tax rate too. Nothing is free.

 

[Absentglare]

Re: The price tag on universal health care is in, it’s bigger than California’s budge

$2K and who gets to pick your policy. What's the difference if you get to pick the color of your house or the government does?

You think health insurance is a product like house paint...? Seriously...?

 

[zimmer]

Re: The price tag on universal health care is in, it’s bigger than California’s budge

Man, it's great you're on today, I'm learning so much about my country!! I mean, all this time I've been believing that we have the right to free speech, because I was referring to the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms (section 2), when I was really waiting all my life to meet you, to let me know how truly oppressed we are up here... lol....

Good grief.

Canada’s Parliament wants to fight Islamophobia by killing free speech
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...to-fight-islamophobia-by-killing-free-speech/


Mark Steyn? You know his court case?
That's not free speech. Just as the Kanuckistani HealthKare system is a glorified waiting list. (I have family there and have lived there... I know the place, and its struggles.)

Think Canada Allows Freedom of Speech? Think Again*|*Tom Kott
Section 1 of the Constitution Act 1982 gives Canadians the right to free speech, but with "reasonable limits." This ensures that almost anything one says can be considered unconstitutional and subject to legal prosecution. You have a right to speak your mind, but be careful of what you say.

Then there's section 13 of the Canadian Human Rights Act. This prohibits the "communication of hate messages." Though a bill to repeal section 13 is currently passing through the Senate, Human Rights courts all over the country are littered with cases that are best characterized by an insane hypersensitivity to what other people have to say. Section 319.2 of the Criminal Code outlaws the willful promotion of hatred "against an identifiable group," and section 319.1 bans any incitements that "lead to a breach of peace."

Stick around me, I'll fill in your ignorance gaps.
You can thank me later.

 

[ludin]

Re: The price tag on universal health care is in, it’s bigger than California’s budge

Well, that's probably because the dog's breakfast of numbers you've presented is impossible to figure out... lol... See above where I've addressed prescriptions, eye, dental. As for the $400 billion, that's what the OP is saying California's bill will be, not Canada's, we're not even close. The per person price I originally listed of $3.9k.

Maybe give a run through the numbers again, and maybe you can tell me why the per person is so much more expensive in California, when buying power should mean you get everything cheaper....?

which means you don't understand the numbers at all which is typical and why you posted what you posted.
the numbers are simple and easy to understand I went through it step by step.

you didn't address anything because there is nothing that says companies have to pay for that. so your so called addressed is anything but addressed.
no it isn't 3.9k.

that is if you are single and have no kids. if you are a family it is more like 10-12k, but that is not the tax rate you are paying.
you are paying a 42% tax on 53k American dollars.

companies are not going to take a bullet. their price is their price. you either pay it or you don't.
while sure they could give a discount which might lower it a little bit that doesn't mean they have to.

we learned that with medicare part D. all the drug companies did was raise prices.

there are 336m people that live in the US.
at 10k a person which is about average expense minimum. that is about 4 trillion dollar of over head. (the entire US).

you in Canada have a 40% tax rate for people making about 53k a year (us).
the median income in the US is 56k which is would be about 42% in Canada.

you would have to tax every working at about 42% or more to cover that cost per year.
that doesn't include over runs as some people will use way more than 10k in services a year.

in france it is worse they have a payroll tax of about 64% between employer and employee.
good luck selling that to a middle income earner making 56k a year that he has to fork over 50% of his pay to the government.

 

[OlNate]

Re: The price tag on universal health care is in, it’s bigger than California’s budge

When you buy steak, do you pay a "wazoo" for it?
If you can buy it cheaper somewhere else, do you get it there?

With the free market, what has happened to the price of computers and cell phones? They've gotten better and cheaper. The product is good and service is good, or you contemplate changing services.

With the government, you're ass ****ed. Like the Canadians are... unless they can escape to another country.

Actually, a wazoo is not a form of currency or credit to pay with, it is a nicer term for an ass... So, sometimes you pay out the ass (a term meant to indicate you are paying far too much), sometimes you talk out of it (a term meant for people blurting out all kinds of nonsense about stuff they clearly know nothing about).

The word ass can be interchanged with wazoo. As in, "Gee, zimmer, you sure are talking out the wazoo today!"

Hope that helps...cheers! Must get back to figuring out how to escape Canada, so I can avoid the inevitable wazoo ****ing.... lol ...

 

[ttwtt78640]

Re: The price tag on universal health care is in, it’s bigger than California’s budge

We could cut that 18% of GDP in half with negotiating power if our system is of only average efficiency among OECD nations.

Why do you want to waste 9% of GDP while leaving tens of millions of Americans uninsured to be price gouged by the wealthy?

Hmm... like our government has done with the Medicare, Medicaid and VA systems? That must explain the low costs of our public K-12 education system too - those clever government negotiators (and their campaign contributing friends) got rich and we got the shaft.

 

[Aberration]

Re: The price tag on universal health care is in, it’s bigger than California’s budge

Yawn. That simply isn't socialism, no matter how much you wish it were.

Please know what you're talking about before talking.

Its a fundamental principle of Socialism, no matter how much you pretend its not.

Please know what you're talking about before talking.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[D_NATURED]

Re: The price tag on universal health care is in, it’s bigger than California’s budge

"“One fundamental difference between the United States and Canada is that they see health care as a human right … there’s a sense of pride that everyone has access to health care,” he said."

The fundamental difference is that Americans spend almost double, what other Western countries spend and the government spends more per capita of the beneficiaries than most social democracies.

Stop with all of the facts. Can't you see this is a conservative meeting of the mindless? Once they invoke their favorite boogeyman, socialism, they don't have to care about facts.

 

[ttwtt78640]

Re: The price tag on universal health care is in, it’s bigger than California’s budge

You think health insurance is a product like house paint...? Seriously...?

No, it is more of a middle man service working on a commission basis thus has no incentive to see lower prices. Do you think that the government makes wise choices to save you money? I think that the government (our representatives and servants?) gets quite rich, as do their campaign contributors, and we get the bill and/or debt.

 

[zimmer]

Re: The price tag on universal health care is in, it’s bigger than California’s budge

Actually, a wazoo is not a form of currency or credit to pay with, it is a nicer term for an ass... So, sometimes you pay out the ass (a term meant to indicate you are paying far too much), sometimes you talk out of it (a term meant for people blurting out all kinds of nonsense about stuff they clearly know nothing about).

The word ass can be interchanged with wazoo. As in, "Gee, zimmer, you sure are talking out the wazoo today!"

Hope that helps...cheers! Must get back to figuring out how to escape Canada, so I can avoid the inevitable wazoo ****ing.... lol ...

Nice try?
Does not change the thrust of the post you made or my response to it.

 

[Tanngrisnir]

Re: The price tag on universal health care is in, it’s bigger than California’s budge

Its a fundamental principle of Socialism, no matter how much you pretend its not.

Please know what you're talking about before talking.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

No, it's not. Not in this regard.

Why try and use words you don't understand? What's the point?

 

[ludin]

Re: The price tag on universal health care is in, it’s bigger than California’s budge

Isn't that basically the inverse of those who want it regardless of what it costs? I mean, technically, understanding how many people go into massive debt for healthcare reasons in America, and choose death over debt in America, couldn't one say about Right leaning analysis that it is untrustworthy because they *don't* want it - at any cost?

very few actually.
http://thehill.com/blogs/congress-blog/economy-a-budget/263547-the-myth-of-medical-bankruptcy

only about 12-13% of bankruptcies are medically related.

the so called Harvard study was bogus.

 

[YorkshirePete]

Re: The price tag on universal health care is in, it’s bigger than California’s budge

The flushing sound is coming from the wonderful State of Californizuela.

Can't they do better, and make an even bigger mess of it, so the state commits fiscal suicide sooner?

And we know, this isn't the full cost. It's way bigger, as all socialist schemes fail to predict future costs anywhere close to reality.

Is demokrat the limit of your intelligence?
And where is the costing of the new trump plan?
Sounds like you don't live in cal. My daughter started a $150mm business and loves the health care for her employees.
I assume you are not sucking off your socialist VA, SS Medicare benefits?

 

[YorkshirePete]

Re: The price tag on universal health care is in, it’s bigger than California’s budge

very few actually.
http://thehill.com/blogs/congress-blog/economy-a-budget/263547-the-myth-of-medical-bankruptcy

only about 12-13% of bankruptcies are medically related.

the so called Harvard study was bogus.

Only
one in ten? Boy I feel better

 

[OlNate]

Re: The price tag on universal health care is in, it’s bigger than California’s budge

which means you don't understand the numbers at all which is typical and why you posted what you posted.
the numbers are simple and easy to understand I went through it step by step.

you didn't address anything because there is nothing that says companies have to pay for that. so your so called addressed is anything but addressed.
no it isn't 3.9k.

that is if you are single and have no kids. if you are a family it is more like 10-12k, but that is not the tax rate you are paying.
you are paying a 42% tax on 53k American dollars.

companies are not going to take a bullet. their price is their price. you either pay it or you don't.
while sure they could give a discount which might lower it a little bit that doesn't mean they have to.

we learned that with medicare part D. all the drug companies did was raise prices.

there are 336m people that live in the US.
at 10k a person which is about average expense minimum. that is about 4 trillion dollar of over head. (the entire US).

you in Canada have a 40% tax rate for people making about 53k a year (us).
the median income in the US is 56k which is would be about 42% in Canada.

you would have to tax every working at about 42% or more to cover that cost per year.
that doesn't include over runs as some people will use way more than 10k in services a year.

in france it is worse they have a payroll tax of about 64% between employer and employee.
good luck selling that to a middle income earner making 56k a year that he has to fork over 50% of his pay to the government.

Ermagherd, go google it, from the Fraser Institute, 2014 numbers:

"It is more informative to measure the cost of our health care system in per capita dollars: the $141 billion spent equates to approximately $3,961 per Canadian (CIHI, 2014; Statistics Canada, 2014; authors' calculations)."

That's the figures I'm working with. It's probably gone up a bit, but not much. And yes, companies still have benefits packages here for dental and glasses and prescriptions, those are not paid for by the government unless someone is over 65 and / or on social assistance and is not covered otherwise. But my retired dad is getting both hips replaced, he found out last week, and he'll have it done within the next couple months...cost: $0.00. Not too shabby. Oh, and because he's over 65, his meds are paid for too.

 

[ludin]

Re: The price tag on universal health care is in, it’s bigger than California’s budge

Only
one in ten? Boy I feel better

considering that people were saying that it was 50-65% which was a lie then yes.
it is better.

it was a myth that has been debunked but for some reason won't die.

 

[Absentglare]

Re: The price tag on universal health care is in, it’s bigger than California’s budge

Hmm... like our government has done with the Medicare, Medicaid and VA systems? That must explain the low costs of our public K-12 education system too - those clever government negotiators (and their campaign contributing friends) got rich and we got the shaft.

No, not like what our government has done with those systems. None of those systems are universal.

I mean, i know you understand how Walmart works. Consolidation brings bargaining power. The reason we spend 18% of GDP is that there is insufficient pressure to keep costs (and therefore CEO salaries, profits, etc.) down. Leaving individuals to negotiate on their own for healthcare costs has been an unmitigated disaster for everyone outside of the healthcare industry.

 

[YorkshirePete]

Re: The price tag on universal health care is in, it’s bigger than California’s budge

There's a lot of unemployed liberals and illegal aliens out there voting to get free stuff at the expense of taxpayers.

Wow, pearls of wisdom coming from people who
1. Don't know the def of liberal (no Latin in college?)
2. Don't know the difference between a noun and an adjective (democrat v's democratic)
Why read further?

 

[Absentglare]

Re: The price tag on universal health care is in, it’s bigger than California’s budge

No, it is more of a middle man service working on a commission basis thus has no incentive to see lower prices. Do you think that the government makes wise choices to save you money? I think that the government (our representatives and servants?) gets quite rich, as do their campaign contributors, and we get the bill and/or debt.

Do you think that healthcare providers and insurers make wise choices to save uninsured individuals money? I think that the executives get rich, as do their administrators, and we get the bill.

We either have to deal with the "evil" that's transparent (government healthcare) or the "evil" that isn't transparent and that we have no control over (private healthcare).