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The price of gas depends on ???

EagleAye said:
Well, optimally the amount of petroleum we use for transportation would be cut down to that used by airlines. EVs would amount to a terrific conservation effort. 2011 models of EVs are getting $0.95 per 25 miles. Petroleum Cars getting 30mpg are getting roughly $2.80 for 25 miles (cost may vary). So EVs are already getting superior results. Add to that, EVs are not requiring petroleum for their power source. That's no gallons at all. Under "optimal" conditions EVs in 2011 are getting a 100 mile range. And all of this in a car for about $32,000. Well within the budget of many consumers. If this can continue, and Catawba's new battery find goes into general use, we may be able to kiss the Middle-East goodbye.
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Right now they are requiring oil (or coal) or some sort of gas for their power source.
 
1Perry said:
Right now they are requiring oil (or coal) or some sort of gas for their power source.
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Actually it's only 70% fossil fuels - natural gas and coal mostly. Oil (products from crude) is seldom used for power production. Nuclear and hydro make up most of the other 30% at this point.
 
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1Perry said:
Right now they are requiring oil (or coal) or some sort of gas for their power source.
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1% of electrical generation comes from oil. Most of electricity comes from coal followed by NG and then Nuclear. Though the source power of EVs (usually coal) is still environmentally hazardous, EVs are still beneficial because they are the best way to steer us (pardon the pun) away from foreign oil, and oil in general. So they're still an excellent solution. As wind, solar, wave and other alternatives come on line - backed by new battery tech (Catawba post #631, pg 64) - EVs can become almost completely clean technology. The hardest thing to do is to convince people to change their cars. This cannot be a forcible change so it will happen slowly.
 
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UtahBill said:
I don't know your work history, education, experience, etc. but I know mine, and I have worked around a lot of engineers and some scientists. They LOVE problems as long as someone is willing to pay them to look for answers. Those highly educated people aren't sitting on their hands doing nothing. They are competitive, even when getting paid by government contract. Problem to them means opportunity. Maybe the real "problem" is unrealistic expectations of uneducated citizens?
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As another that is aware of the progress that could have been made in the last 30 years, and has not been, I don't think Presluc's expectations are unrealistic. One of the problems I see, is that there have not been enough people like Presluc with these same expectations and demanding the same kind of leadership on alternative energy and conservation from our representatives as provided under Carter 3 decades ago.
 
UtahBill said:
Jimmy Carter tried that, people laughed. Not so many are laughing now.....
We could hurt the oil cartels right now, if we wanted to.....simply by govt mandates related to conservation. Lower speed limits, raise the taxe on gasoline and diesel and other oil related consumer products, and we would soon be able to make the Middle East take notice. Instead, we complain about the price of energy and expect it to become more abundant and cheaper.
Not gonna happen.....we will have to learn to get by on less long before any magic beanstalks pop up leading us to the gas station of Eden.....
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All these things require the public will to accomplish. We need to keep pressure on our representatives to make it happen. This needs to be one of our higher criteria when we choose who we are going to vote for. I think this is part of what our friend Presluc was saying.
 
1Perry said:
Right now they are requiring oil (or coal) or some sort of gas for their power source.
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Bunker oil used to be used as a fuel for electrical power, quite a bit during the Carter days, but by now the use of such oil is minimal, less than 3% of our electricity comes from burning oil, last I looked...
 
Catawba said:
All these things require the public will to accomplish. We need to keep pressure on our representatives to make it happen. This needs to be one of our higher criteria when we choose who we are going to vote for. I think this is part of what our friend Presluc was saying.
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I agree with Presluc that we should be more involved in searching for alternatives, but I have also been trying to tell him and others that it isn't as easy as many of us seem to think. The manhattan project was accomplished in the face of many difficulties because we had the technology developed to the point that a big push could hurry up the result. The SR71 spy plane was conceived at a time when we didn't have the technology, but we pushed on and accomplishe that as well.
But finding an alternative to OIL makes those projects seem simple by comparison.....we are talking about replacing the lifes blood of the transportation industry.
In the meantime, we are NOT doing the many things we could be doing to use less of our oil.
Diesel ecectric Trains have much lower fuel cost per ton/mile than long haul trucking, so it makes sense to use trains more than trucks for freight.
Small cars serve our people moving needs better than big SUV's and and light trucks, but people are still buying the poorer choice.
It will only be when gasoline is taxed to the point that it really hurts that many of us finally decide to give up driving a 3 ton behemoth to and from work, alone, without passengers, as in carpooling.
 
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EagleAye said:
I like this handy dandy chart from here: Energy in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia It gives a pretty good breakdown as of 2009. some figures have changed. For instance, the renewables is up from 8% to 11%, but it's still a good general guide.

Okay I cannot upload it for some reason, but it's here. Check the chart on the right with the circles.
Energy in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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That's all energy used, not just electrical power generation:

Electricity generation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
UtahBill said:
I agree with Presluc that we should be more involved in searching for alternatives, but I have also been trying to tell him and others that it isn't as easy as many of us seem to think. The manhattan project was accomplished in the face of many difficulties because we had the technology developed to the point that a big push could hurry up the result. The SR71 spy plane was conceived at a time when we didn't have the technology, but we pushed on and accomplishe that as well.
But finding an alternative to OIL makes those projects seem simple by comparison.....we are talking about replacing the lifes blood of the transportation industry.
In the meantime, we are NOT doing the many things we could be doing to use less of our oil.
Diesel ecectric Trains have much lower fuel cost per ton/mile than long haul trucking, so it makes sense to use trains more than trucks for freight.
Small cars serve our people moving needs better than big SUV's and and light trucks, but people are still buying the poorer choice.
It will only be when gasoline is taxed to the point that it really hurts that many of us finally decide to give up driving a 3 ton behemoth to and from work, alone, without passengers, as in carpooling.
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No argument with that Bill, but it is still going to take effort by the public, both personally and holding our representatives accountable to make it happen in time to avoid more serious economic impacts. And we are not exactly starting from scratch on the technological side of this either. It is only our lack of resolve that is putting us behind China in being the top innovators.
 
Catawba said:
No argument with that Bill, but it is still going to take effort by the public, both personally and holding our representatives accountable to make it happen in time to avoid more serious economic impacts. And we are not exactly starting from scratch on the technological side of this either. It is only our lack of resolve that is putting us behind China in being the top innovators.
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Not only that, but China is getting overseas the contracts to build alternative energy plants in western countries. If should be the US and US workers getting these contracts. We're the real innovator in the world after all, at least we used to be. Unfortunately, we're sitting on hands and denying the validity of alternative energies, while the market passes us by. It's frustrating.

I hate being out-innovated and out-marketed by China. It's humiliating.
 
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EagleAye said:
Not only that, but China is getting overseas the contracts to build alternative energy plants in western countries. If should be the US and US workers getting these contracts. We're the real innovator in the world after all, at least we used to be. Unfortunately, we're sitting on hands and denying the validity of alternative energies, while the market passes us by. It's frustrating.

I hate being out-innovated and out-marketed by China. It's humiliating.
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The Chinese underbid US companies..
 
the primary means of transporttion in China is still the bicycle..
 
UtahBill said:
the primary means of transporttion in China is still the bicycle..
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Unless we get off our ass on alternative energy development, it will be our primary means of transportation soon as well!
 
Catawba said:
Unless we get off our ass on alternative energy development, it will be our primary means of transportation soon as well!
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it could very well mean the end of an era, the era of fatass Americans....Jay Leno will love it....he is always ranting about how fat we are..
 
EagleAye said:
Do you know this for a fact?
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Yes.. I do know it for a fact..

Most oil companies work on fee for service these days.. so they are bidding on percentage of revenue AFTER the cost of development of oil infrastructure.

A US company may bid 24% while the Chinese bid 18%..

Its not like in the old days when US oil companies were lean and mean.. now they are bloated.
 
sharon said:
Yes.. I do know it for a fact..

Most oil companies work on fee for service these days.. so they are bidding on percentage of revenue AFTER the cost of development of oil infrastructure.

A US company may bid 24% while the Chinese bid 18%..

Its not like in the old days when US oil companies were lean and mean.. now they are bloated.
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Okay. but we're talking about alternative energy companies, NOT oil companies.
 
EagleAye said:
Okay. but we're talking about alternative energy companies, NOT oil companies.
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OK.. then I have no first hand knowledge of the bidding on power plants, refineries etc....

I just know that years ago the home office in NY would send two accountants with a briefcase between them twice a year to the oilfields.. now they send 30 people.
 
sharon said:
OK.. then I have no first hand knowledge of the bidding on power plants, refineries etc....

I just know that years ago the home office in NY would send two accountants with a briefcase between them twice a year to the oilfields.. now they send 30 people.
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I don't question your knowledge of the oil industry - I've verified too much of your information in this thread to do that. :)

But solar plants are more civil engineering (and/or architecture) than anything else. I don't know about solar plants in particular but I've seen plenty of civil projects bid in my time. They'll all pretty much the same process whether it's 1000' of sanitary sewer, 5 miles of freeway, or a residential home - it's just a matter of scale. The builder provides the specs, say 1100 MW renewable over 30 years in this location, and everyone bids on it. For very large projects there are sometimes special orders that are cheaper than buying "off the shelf" but it's all just a matter of investigating pricing, which is what the designer does. Sometimes a design firm will hook up with a contractor and they'll collaborate on design v construction costs. Some things may be cheap to acquire but have off-setting construction costs. It's all pretty straight forward, though.

For the record, I have no doubt the Chinese outbid the Americans. Chinese panels are much cheaper at this point in time because we've had our head buried in the sand the past decade. :screwy
 
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MoSurveyor said:
I don't question your knowledge of the oil industry - I've verified too much of your information in this thread to do that. :)

But solar plants are more civil engineering (and/or architecture) than anything else. I don't know about solar plants in particular but I've seen plenty of civil projects bid in my time. They'll all pretty much the same process whether it's 1000' of sanitary sewer, 5 miles of freeway, or a residential home - it's just a matter of scale. The builder provides the specs, say 1100 MW renewable over 30 years in this location, and everyone bids on it. For very large projects there are sometimes special orders that are cheaper than buying "off the shelf" but it's all just a matter of investigating pricing, which is what the designer does. Sometimes a design firm will hook up with a contractor and they'll collaborate on design v construction costs. Some things may be cheap to acquire but have off-setting construction costs. It's all pretty straight forward, though.

For the record, I have no doubt the Chinese outbid the Americans. Chinese panels are much cheaper at this point in time because we've had our head buried in the sand the past decade. :-/
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You might be interested in the hy solar projects in Arabia .. circa 1980.

They have whole villages off grid.

I toured their research facilities at KACST.. and most of it went right over my head..

(King Abdulaziz City for Science and Technology)
 
EagleAye said:
We're actually seeing a decline in foreign oil demand, while there's a steady increase of cars on the road. A lot of that is due to the increase of hybrids and cars with better gas mileage. We're making a dent. If EVs or at least plugin-hybrids become popular, then OPEC will get seriously nervous.
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In my opinion that's not enough!

Perhaps I'm selfish, maybe even a bit pushy when it comes to alteritive fuel to oil.

However in my defence I've been asking for more reaserch and development of alterntive fuel to oil since 1969.
To some I may be looked at as a trouble maker.
Perhaps, but the quest for alternitive fuel is not mine alone,
I AM NOT ALONE IN THE DESIRE TO HAVE AN ALTERNITIVE FUEL TO OIL NOW THIS DECADE.:peace
 
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