The price of gas depends on ???

[1Perry]

Please link to any convictions regarding Solyndra, I have been unable to find any.

Basically what you are saying here IMO is that politics trumps the ecology for you which makes your points while sometimes valid, completely dismissable.

 

[1Perry]

What about the successes? How are you sure "much of it" (bolded in your quote above) is a failure? Below is an incomplete list of the companies participating (Ener1-failure, Energetx Composites LLC-Success are not listed for instance). Data collected here: https://lpo.energy.gov/?page_id=45

It looks to me like there are far more successes than failures. [sorry I didn't bother to format the below. There's a lot of data]. I have contacted the DoE and requested a complete list of companies participating.

It doesn't state what we got if anything out of any of that and the idea of jobs "saved" has been debunked long ago.

 

[EagleAye]

It doesn't state what we got if anything out of any of that and the idea of jobs "saved" has been debunked long ago.

Well, the DoE lists 62,016 jobs. And we're getting quite a lot out of it.

For an example:
Abengoa in Mojave provides this:
- Annual Generation Output (MWh) 617,000
- Annual Avoided CO2 (tons) 355,000
- Annual Cars off the Road* 68,000
- Households Equivalent (annual)** 54,000

Abengoa in Solano provides this:
- Annual Generation Output (MWh) 944,000
- Annual Avoided CO2 (tons) 544,000
- Annual Cars off the Road* 105,000
- Households Equivalent (annual)** 82,000

Prologis (Project Amp) covers 28 states and provides this:
- Annual Generation Output (MWh) 1,015,000
- Annual Avoided CO2 (tons) 583,000
- Annual Cars off the Road* 112,000
- Households Equivalent (annual)** 88,000

A general overview from the site says this will be provided

- The nation’s first nuclear power plant in the last three decades. (Vogtle)
- The world’s largest wind farm. (Shepherds Flat)
- One of the nation’s first cellulosic ethanol power plants. (POET’s Project Liberty)
- The largest rooftop solar project in our nation’s history. (Project Amp)
- Several of the world’s largest photovoltaic generation facilities when completed, including the largest in the world. (Agua Caliente)
- Several of the world’s largest concentrating solar power (CSP) generation facilities that will triple the nation’s currently-installed CSP capacity.
- Solar manufacturing plants that will help reduce the cost of solar power, one by up to up to 50% per panel. (1366, Solopower)

These are not tests, they are not labs, they will provide power to the American people. This is building up a new energy infrastructure.

 

[Catawba]

Basically what you are saying here IMO is that politics trumps the ecology for you which makes your points while sometimes valid, completely dismissable.

No, what I am saying is your unverified claims of wrongdoing, are just that, unverified claims of wrongdoing.

 

[1Perry]

No, what I am saying is your unverified claims of wrongdoing, are just that, unverified claims of wrongdoing.

The wrong doing was in giving them the money. I never said that they were guilty of anything outside of having a business model designed for failure.

If we are going to invest in this for the country, we need to take that out of the equation.

 

[Catawba]

The wrong doing was in giving them the money. I never said that they were guilty of anything outside of having a business model designed for failure.

If we are going to invest in this for the country, we need to take that out of the equation.

How do you eliminate all chances of failure in every business venture?

 

[1Perry]

How do you eliminate all chances of failure in every business venture?

You don't. Nor did I say that we can. We should remove that from the equation though if we are going to use public money for R&D for new energy sources.

 

[Catawba]

You don't. Nor did I say that we can. We should remove that from the equation though if we are going to use public money for R&D for new energy sources.

Its not possible to win every time. As has been shown above, Solyndra's failure was more than offset by the many successes.

 

[Dittohead not!]

What about the successes? How are you sure "much of it" (bolded in your quote above) is a failure? Below is an incomplete list of the companies participating (Ener1-failure, Energetx Composites LLC-Success are not listed for instance). Data collected here: https://lpo.energy.gov/?page_id=45

It looks to me like there are far more successes than failures. [sorry I didn't bother to format the below. There's a lot of data]. I have contacted the DoE and requested a complete list of companies participating.

AREVA Front-end Nuclear $2 billion 310/1,000 May 2010 Idaho Falls, ID Conditional Commitment
Georgia Power Company Nuclear Generation $8.33 billion 800/3,500 Feb 2010 Waynesboro, GA Conditional Commitment
Red River Environmental Products, LLC Energy Efficiency $245 million 70/500 Dec 2009 Conditional Commitment
SAGE Electrochromics, Inc. Energy Efficiency $72 million 160/210 Mar 2010 Faribault, MN Conditional Commitment
1705
1366 Technologies, Inc. Solar Manufacturing $150 million 70/50 Sept 2011 Lexington, MA
Abengoa Bioenergy Biomass of Kansas LLC Biofuel $132.4 million 65/300 Aug 2011 Hugoton, KS
Abengoa Solar, Inc. (Mojave Solar) Solar Generation $1.2 billion 70/830 Sept 2011 San Bernardino County, CA
Abengoa Solar, Inc. (Solana) Solar Generation $1.446 billion 60/1,700 Dec 2010 Gila Bend, AZ
Abound Solar Solar Manufacturing $400 million 1,200/400 Dec 2010 Longmont, CO and Tipton, IN
AES Corporation Battery Storage $17.1 million 5/30 Aug 2010 Johnson City, NY
BrightSource Energy, Inc. Solar Generation $1.6 billion 86/1,000 Apr 2011 Baker, CA
Caithness Shepherds Flat Wind Generation partial guarantee of $1.3 billion 35/400 Oct 2010 Gilliam and Morrow Counties, OR
Cogentrix of Alamosa, LLC. Solar Generation $90.6 million 10/75 Sept 2011 Alamosa, CO
Exelon (Antelope Valley Solar Ranch) Solar Generation $646 million 20/350 Sept 2011 Lancanster, CA
Granite Reliable Wind Generation partial guarantee of $168.9 million 6/198 Sept 2011 Coos, NH
Kahuku Wind Power, LLC. Wind Generation $117 million 10/200 July 2010 Kahuku Oahu, HI
LS Power Associates (ON Line – formerly known as SWIP-S) Transmission $343 million 15/400 Feb 2011 Ely to Las Vegas, NV
Mesquite Solar 1, LLC (Sempra Mesquite) Solar Generation $337 million 7/300 Sept 2011 Maricopa County, AZ
Nevada Geothermal Power Company, Inc. Geothermal partial guarantee of $98.5 million 14/200 Sept 2010 Humbolt County, NV
NextEra Energy Resources, LLC (Desert Sunlight) Solar Generation partial guarantee of $1.46 billion 15/550 Sept 2011 Riverside County, CA
NextEra Energy Resources, LLC (Genesis Solar) Solar Generation partial guarantee of $852 million 47/800 Aug 2011 Riverside County, CA
NRG Energy (California Valley Solar Ranch) Solar Generation $1.237 billion 15/350 Sept 2011 San Luis Obispo, CA
NRG Solar, LLC (Agua Caliente) Solar Generation $967 million 10/400 Aug 2011 Yuma County, AZ
Ormat Nevada, Inc. Geothermal partial guarantee of $350 million 64/332 Sept 2011 Jersey Valley, McGinness Hills, and Tuscarora, NV
POET, LLC. Biofuel $105 million 40/200 Sept 2011 Emmetsburg, IA
Prologis (Project Amp) Solar Generation partial guarantee of $1.4 billion 42/Over 1,000 Sept 2011 28 States
Record Hill Wind Wind Generation $102 million 8/200 Aug 2011 Roxbury, ME
SolarReserve, LLC (Crescent Dunes) Solar Generation $737 million 45/600 Sept 2011 Nye County, NV
SoloPower Solar Manufacturing $197 million 450/270 Aug 2011 Portland, OR
US Geothermal, Inc. Geothermal $97 million 10/150 Feb 2011 Malheur County, OR
Fisker Automotive $529 million 2,000 Apr 2010 2
Ford Motor Company $5.907 billion 33,000 Sep 2009 13
Nissan North America, Inc. $1.448 billion 1,300 Jan 2010 2
Tesla Motors $465 million 1,500 Jan 2010 2
The Vehicle Production Group LLC $50 million 900 Mar 2011

How come we don't hear about all of those in the "liberal" media? All we hear about is Solindra.

 

[1Perry]

Its not possible to win every time. As has been shown above, Solyndra's failure was more than offset by the many successes.

Says you....

 

[EagleAye]

How come we don't hear about all of those in the "liberal" media? All we hear about is Solindra.

Good point. I had to look pretty damn hard to find that, and I'm surprised the data wasn't easily available. Though with hindsight I should've started at the DoE, I still think a basic split second google search should've brought it up immediately.

Either the media isn't as "liberal" as we're led to believe or they just suck at defending their position.

 

[EagleAye]

Says you....

The list supplied earlier totals 35.1 Billion in loans. We've had failures on 696 Million of that. 696M/35.1B = 0.019 or failures on 1.9%. That means we're getting a Success Rate of 98.1%! It seems odd to call the whole think a wash with an extremely high success rate like that.

 

[UtahBill]

Really.

Is it ignorance to want to stop pollution?
Is it stupid to want an alternitive energy and fuel to oil?
Is it wrong to persist in wanting your country to be independent of other countries policies?

If this is wrong , if this is stupid, if this is ignorance, I DON'T WANT TO BE INTELECTUAL.eace

pretty sure that ship has sailed.....:2razz:

 

[Dittohead not!]

Good point. I had to look pretty damn hard to find that, and I'm surprised the data wasn't easily available. Though with hindsight I should've started at the DoE, I still think a basic split second google search should've brought it up immediately.

Either the media isn't as "liberal" as we're led to believe or they just suck at defending their position.

I'm betting on the first option.

 

[1Perry]

The list supplied earlier totals 35.1 Billion in loans. We've had failures on 696 Million of that. 696M/35.1B = 0.019 or failures on 1.9%. That means we're getting a Success Rate of 98.1%! It seems odd to call the whole think a wash with an extremely high success rate like that.

You have no idea whether we are gaining anything from any of those companies. I'm sure we wouldn't lose money if we gave Haliburton money to develop a longer lasting battery either. I'm not sure we would ever get one though.

Many of the companies listed have not made a single penny on anything yet.

 

[EagleAye]

You have no idea whether we are gaining anything from any of those companies. I'm sure we wouldn't lose money if we gave Haliburton money to develop a longer lasting battery either. I'm not sure we would ever get one though.

Many of the companies listed have not made a single penny on anything yet.

So tell us which ones aren't making money.

 

[1Perry]

So tell us which ones aren't making money.

We can start here.

•So far, the company has suffered net losses every quarter since it introduced its first electric car to the market in 2008. In the first three months of 2010, Tesla lost $29.5 million.

Five Reasons Why Tesla Will Never Make Money, According to Tesla - The Daily Beast

 

[EagleAye]

We can start here.

•So far, the company has suffered net losses every quarter since it introduced its first electric car to the market in 2008. In the first three months of 2010, Tesla lost $29.5 million.

Five Reasons Why Tesla Will Never Make Money, According to Tesla - The Daily Beast

Here you go: (my bold)
5 Auto Stocks in Top Gear - TheStreet

Of the 12 analysts covering the stock, 67% recommend a buy and 25% rate a hold. The stock's average 12-month price target is $39.71, about 21.8% higher than the current price, according to a Bloomberg consensus.

Tesla Motors reported total revenue of $57.6 million for 2011 third quarter, up 84.6% from $31.2 million in the same quarter last year. Cash and cash equivalents and short-term marketable securities totaled 278.4 million at the end of September.

It's true that starting a new car company is hard, and it's risky, even if you're making petroleum vehicles (ask Tucker). Knocking a new Electric Car producer, even though ANY new car producer has struggled, and claiming it's only because they're making EVs is a bit short-sighted. Let's give EVs at least a mere 10% of the development time that petroleum cars have enjoyed before claiming they'll never make any money. Looks like it's time to invest in EV companies: (my bold)
600% Growth Industry: Electric Cars - TheStreet

600% Growth Industry: Electric Cars

In the future, the arguments in favor of electric cars are likely to shift to their silent and smooth operation. Basically, electric cars make for superior luxury. Once you have driven an electric car, returning to a gasoline/diesel car feels very agricultural with all their noise, shakes, vibrations and lack of smooth operation.

In the near term, electric cars are likely to be focused on the performance and luxury segments. Over time, as battery cost declines, this luxury technology will be accessible to a greater percentage of automobile buyers. Perhaps then, the electric car market share will go from 1% to something more like above 50%. That will likely take at least another five years or more.

 

[1Perry]

I'm patient.......it's only a matter of time before they close up shop. To be profitable they say they must sell $100,000 cars at a rate of 10 times the rate GM is selling Volts.

Now, if we would create the technology where we could plug a car in at night, get in and drive it 700 miles the next day, someone might be able to make a go at selling electric cars priced around what gas cars sell for.

 

[Gary]

I'm patient.......it's only a matter of time before they close up shop. To be profitable they say they must sell $100,000 cars at a rate of 10 times the rate GM is selling Volts.

Now, if we would create the technology where we could plug a car in at night, get in and drive it 700 miles the next day, someone might be able to make a go at selling electric cars priced around what gas cars sell for.

Why is that necessary? If the car is electric, all you need is the technology to generate electricity. Yes, you'll have to use a fuel on a long trip, but does a gasoline powered car go 700 miles without refueling? You don't need gasoline to generate electricity and natural gas is a more logical choice. Trucks can be made to run on natural gas or converted. Many in the cities already are. Providing the fuel for trucking allows a means to refuel hybrids also using natural gas.

 

[1Perry]

Why is that necessary? If the car is electric, all you need is the technology to generate electricity.

One can not be viable selling $100,000 cars that are good for 45 miles.

Yes, you'll have to use a fuel on a long trip, but does a gasoline powered car go 700 miles without refueling?

Mine will do 600.

You don't need gasoline to generate electricity and natural gas is a more logical choice. Trucks can be made to run on natural gas or converted. Many in the cities already are. Providing the fuel for trucking allows a means to refuel hybrids also using natural gas.

If you go back and read you'll see where I've advocated more use of NG. I think a NG or Diesel Hybrid along the lines of the Prius would be great. A real money maker for a car maker. They do not need taxpayer money to do that. IMO it's more likely to happen by the government raising CAFE standards and telling manufacturers they must meet those standards as opposed to manufacturers waiting until the government pays them to do it.

 

[Catawba]

To correct pricing info above, the purchase price for the Tesla Model S is $42,400 after tax rebate.

5.6 seconds from 0 - 60 mph / 300 miles per charge / 0 emissions.

 

[Gary]

One can not be viable selling $100,000 cars that are good for 45 miles.



Mine will do 600.



If you go back and read you'll see where I've advocated more use of NG. I think a NG or Diesel Hybrid along the lines of the Prius would be great. A real money maker for a car maker. They do not need taxpayer money to do that. IMO it's more likely to happen by the government raising CAFE standards and telling manufacturers they must meet those standards as opposed to manufacturers waiting until the government pays them to do it.

So, where is the proof that a Tesla only is good for 45 miles?

The Tesla, I'm familiar with, is all electric. It doesn't take a large generator to charge a battery or run a vehicle on generated electricity. Trains do it all the time with diesel generators.

 

[EagleAye]

I'm patient.......it's only a matter of time before they close up shop. To be profitable they say they must sell $100,000 cars at a rate of 10 times the rate GM is selling Volts.

Now, if we would create the technology where we could plug a car in at night, get in and drive it 700 miles the next day, someone might be able to make a go at selling electric cars priced around what gas cars sell for.

700 miles, yes? How many petroleum cars can pull that off?

According to this, the average mpg of cars sold in 2011 is 22.2mpg
Average fuel efficiency improving this 2011 | TechFever Network

Then, if we consider the average fuel tank size of 17 gal (yes I know some have more, but some have less - this is an average), then 17 gallons X 22.2 mpg = 377.4 miles. That's way way short of your 700 mile demand. Even if we round up to 30 mpg and an 18 gal tank (I'm being extremely kind here), we get 540 miles, still horribly short of your target.

EVs are already outperforming on cost to operate:
Miles per gallon gasoline equivalent - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Nissan Leaf: Fuel cost to drive 25 miles: $0.94
Chevrolet Volt (electric only): Fuel cost to drive 25 miles: $0.99
Chevrolet Volt (gas only-gets 40 mpg): Fuel cost to drive 25 miles: $2.72

Now if you consider that most gas-burners are getting 30mi/gal (and that's being kind) and if we assume $4/gal for gas, that means most gas burners cost $3 to get 25 miles. The means the Nissan Leaf and Chevy Volt (costing a piddly $0.94 to $0.99) are out-competing gas-only vehicles by a very wide margin.

As far as car prices go, I think you'll agree these prices are on par with petroleum cars and sometimes superior:

Ford Focus Electric
Price: From $16,640
Fuel efficiency: about 99 miles on one charge
Charge time: fully charges in six to 12 hours depending on voltage used.

Ford Transit Connect
Price: $22,005
Fuel efficiency: 325 miles per tank
Charge time: about six to eight hours.

Honda Fit EV
Price: $29,990
Fuel efficiency: about 100 miles on one charge

Nissan Leaf
Price: $32,780
Fuel efficiency: 100 miles per charge

Chevrolet Volt
Price: $32,780
Fuel efficiency: Most people can commute efficiently (and gas free) on $1.50 per day by just plugging the battery in the charger.

Think
Price: $34,000
Fuel efficiency: about 99 miles on one charge

 

[1Perry]

To correct pricing info above, the purchase price for the Tesla Model S is $42,400 after tax rebate.

5.6 seconds from 0 - 60 mph / 300 miles per charge / 0 emissions.

Sorry, I was thinking of the Fisker (also on the list).