The Poor Are the Engine of Prosperity

[minnie616]

Ummm..no, the nearest is 8 miles to downtown Detroit.

Dearborn Walmart Supercenter - Walmart.com

Besides, nothing on my list is quickly perishable. All you had to do - assuming the Walmart was the only place with food prices remotely that cheap in all of Detroit - is go to this store once every two weeks. Heck, you could go once a month and stock up.

Also, my list comes up at about 2/3'rd's of the monthly SNAP total..so even if closer prices were 20-25% higher, they would still be under the limit.

Your diet is too high in starches, and has no meat , no fresh fruit and no fresh vegetables and no greens.

First, forget lots of fresh fruits and veggies - too expensive. Same with most meats. And coffee is not a necessity - just because you are addicted to caffeine, the tax payers should not have to help that habit.

The average male needs about 2500 calories per day. so this is what I base this diet on.


A SNAP diet - from Walmart:

Quaker Oats Old Fashioned Oats, 42 oz - Walmart.com

Great Value: Spaghetti, 48 oz - Walmart.com

Great Value Traditional Pasta Sauce, 45 oz - Walmart.com

Great Value: Long Grain Enriched Rice, 10 Lb - Walmart.com

Campbell's Ready To Serve Cream Of Mushroom Soup, 10.5 oz (Pack of 12) - Walmart.com

Great Value Pineapple Cups 16 Oz - Walmart.com

Great Value: Sliced Peaches, 29 Oz - Walmart.com

Equate One Daily Men's Multivitamin Multimineral Supplement 100ct - Walmart.com


Breakfast - 3 servings of the Oats and 1 serving sliced peaches - 500 calories, 65 cents (10mg sodium, 13g fibre, 15g protein)

Lunch - 5 servings of rice, half a can of soup for flavor and a fruit cup - 960 calories, $1.20 cents (60mg sodium, 5g fibre, 18g protein)

Supper - Spaghetti and sauce and 1 serving sliced peaches - 1060 calories, $1.36 (980mg sodium, 14g fibre, 22g protein)

Throw in a multivitamin or two to make up for the lack of meat for 4 cents per pill.

The totals are:

2,530 calories, $3.21 (1050mg sodium, 32g fibre, 55g protein - sodium is healthily low, fibre is solid and protein is fine for most people).

That equals $96.30 for a 30 day month.


Obviously it is not thrillsville and there can be lots of variations on this - but saying that an average male cannot survive on SNAP food stamps alone is wrong.

 

[minnie616]

Ummm..no, the nearest is 8 miles to downtown Detroit.

Dearborn Walmart Supercenter - Walmart.com

Besides, nothing on my list is quickly perishable. All you had to do - assuming the Walmart was the only place with food prices remotely that cheap in all of Detroit - is go to this store once every two weeks. Heck, you could go once a month and stock up.

Also, my list comes up at about 2/3'rd's of the monthly SNAP total..so even if closer prices were 20-25% higher, they would still be under the limit.

And speaking of Walmart.
The cutback in the SNAP program has hurt their profits.

Source: Wal-Mart Stores Inc.

A third, and arguably more compelling reason why Wal-Mart underperformed in the fourth-quarter is because of another exogenous factor: the expiration of additional post-crisis federal funding for social welfare programs like food stamps. According to company estimates confirmed by the Huffington Post, Americans spend about 18 percent of all food stamp dollars at Wal-Mart locations, or about $14 billion of the $80 billion dogeared for the program in 2013. Additional funding for food stamps expired at the end of 2013, forcing up to 47 million people off the program.

When providing its outlook for the coming quarter, Wal-Mart executive VP and chief financial officer Charles Holley said that, “Some of the factors affecting our consumers include reductions in government benefits, higher taxes and tighter credit.” The lower-income consumers that make up most of Wal-Mart’s customers are particularly sensitive to these changes in disposable income. Since lower-income consumers generally spend a most or all of their income, any reductions in income — such as the evaporation of food stamp benefits — equate to a material reduction in spending. This spending reduction means less business for Wal-Mart.

Read more: The Economy, Food Stamps, and What

 

[Critter7r]

A Quick look at your link showed the vast majority of the markets posted are on the north side of Detroit.

As we all know the smaller Markets change more for their food because they do not buy or sell in large in large balk like the chains do.

There were photos of 33 different markets ( some had more than 1 pic , different side of building or inside pics ) .

The first pic of a closed market.
Another market was posted as possibility closed.
It sure looked closed to me too. There was junk pile of looked metal parts taking up all of paring lot piled about 3 feet deep and there no cars nearby.

4 of the markets were on 8 mile which is the boarder line of Detroit.
16 of the markets were on 7 mile.
3 were on 6 mile.

And 4 were on Woodward ( I don't know how far north they were but Woodward runs from downtown Detroit north to 15 and beyond.

8 mile is dividing line between Detroit and the other cities and suburbs.

I live north of Detroit and grew up on the east side, so I'm familiar with the layout.

And I wasn't advocating one way or the other, just making observations.

 

[Critter7r]

A little more research shows that the second market (Paul Conant ) in the link posted of Detroit's markets is actually in Hamtramck.



Pauls Conant Market - Hamtramck, MI - Yelp

Hamtramck is surrounded by the city of Detroit except for a small portion of the western border that touches the similarly surrounded city of Highland Park.

So while it is in close proximity to Detroit is cannot really be counted as a Detroit market.

While you're technically correct, Hamtramck is completely surrounded by Detroit and is no further for Detroit residents to travel to than if Hamtramck didn't exist.

 

[minnie616]

Interesting the company that brings in the most food stamp dollars also likely has the most employees using food stamps.

Yep...that would be WALMART

Although there are no federal numbers on where employed SNAP participants work, the state of Ohio, where Ballam lives, does keep a list of the top 50 companies with the most workers and their family members on food stamps. Ohio’s list includes lots of fast food chains and discount and big-box stores: McDonald’s, Target, Kroger supermarket, Dollar General. At the very top is Walmart, which had an average of more than 14,500 workers and family members on food stamps last year.* If you take into account the average size of a family on food stamps, as many as 7,000 individual Walmart employees were on food stamps last year—nearly 15 percent of the company’s workforce across Ohio.

That means the same company that brings in the most food stamp dollars in revenue—an estimated $13 billion last year—also likely has the most employees using food stamps.
....

“I think it's troubling that any American has to turn to a program like that, but the fact is, they do,” says David Tovar, Walmart’s vice president of communications. I met him at the company headquarters in Bentonville, Ark., where the wall behind the front desk has giant painted letters that spell out the company motto: “Save money. Live better.”

Walmart employees on food stamps: Their wages aren’t enough to get by.

 

[minnie616]

Walmart workers cost US taxpayers an estimated $6.2 billion a year in public assistance.


From a April 2014 Forbes article

Walmart’s low-wage workers cost U.S. taxpayers an estimated $6.2 billion in public assistance including food stamps, Medicaid and subsidized housing, according to a report published to coincide with Tax Day, April 15.
....

“The study estimated the cost to Wisconsin’s taxpayers of Walmart’s low wages and benefits, which often force workers to rely on various public assistance programs,” reads the report, available in full here.

“It found that a single Walmart Supercenter cost taxpayers between $904,542 and $1.75 million per year, or between $3,015 and $5,815 on average for each of 300 workers.”

Read more:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/clareoc...t-taxpayers-6-2-billion-in-public-assistance/

 

[DA60]

Your diet is too high in starches, and has no meat , no fresh fruit and no fresh vegetables and no greens.

You cannot have everything.

You have all the nutritional requirements necessary (with a vitamin supplement for the minerals meat gives you).

Show me one respected, major health organization that says that diet is NOT good for you.

It is low in sodium, has plenty of protein for most people, lots of fibre and is extremely low in bad saturated fats.
I guarantee you this diet is healthier then what most Americans eat.

Meat is overrated - it only has a couple of vitamins/minerals that are not readily available through other sources and those can easily be had through a simple daily vitamin.
I used to body build with a non-meat diet and I built up plenty of muscle and felt fine.

Also, if you look at the total...it was under $100 for the month...that still leaves about $25 that you can add other things (in moderation) that you want...fresh fruits/vegetables and some meat.

 

[ludin]

Walmart workers cost US taxpayers an estimated $6.2 billion a year in public assistance.


From a April 2014 Forbes article


Read more:

Report: Walmart Workers Cost Taxpayers $6.2 Billion In Public Assistance - Forbes

and it would cost the US government double or triple that if they didn't have jobs at all.

 

[MTAtech]

and it would cost the US government double or triple that if they didn't have jobs at all.

That is sidestepping the issue/question, which is why should the taxpayer subsidize WalMart's payroll by providing benefits to WalMart workers, who work but are so underpaid they get SNAP and Medicaid?

I think the minimum wage should be set high enough so that if one is working full-time, one wouldn't be under the poverty line.

 

[DA60]

Walmart workers cost US taxpayers an estimated $6.2 billion a year in public assistance.


From a April 2014 Forbes article


Read more:

Report: Walmart Workers Cost Taxpayers $6.2 Billion In Public Assistance - Forbes

From the link:

'Americans for Tax Fairness, a coalition of 400 national and state-level progressive groups, made this estimate using data from a 2013 study by Democratic Staff of the U.S. Committee on Education and the Workforce.'

This is hardly an internationally respected, unbiased organization that wrote this report.

This is a progressive, FairTax-obsessed bunch.

When a major, unbiased, well-respected group agrees with these numbers, only then will I believe them.

 

[DA60]

That is sidestepping the issue/question, which is why should the taxpayer subsidize WalMart's payroll by providing benefits to WalMart workers, who work but are so underpaid they get SNAP and Medicaid?

I think the minimum wage should be set high enough so that if one is working full-time, one wouldn't be under the poverty line.

It is now.

The official poverty line in the lower 48 is $11,770.

$7.25 times 2,000 hours (full time yearly hours) is $14,500.

2015 Poverty Guidelines


Even after taxes, it's still over the poverty line.

$12,779

http://www.ultimatecalculators.com/us_tax_calculator.html

 

[minnie616]

You cannot have everything.

You have all the nutritional requirements necessary (with a vitamin supplement for the minerals meat gives you).

....

Vitamin supplement do not make up for lack of a good diet.

Multivitamins are, at best, a waste of money, Johns Hopkins doctors say

Three JHU professors among co-authors of editorial that states supplements provide 'no clear benefit and might even be harmful'

Multivitamins are, at best, a waste of money, Johns Hopkins doctors say | Hub

 

[minnie616]

and it would cost the US government double or triple that if they didn't have jobs at all.

And if Walmart paid their employees $12 an hour it would save the government about $6.2 billion.

The wage hike to $12 would increase Walmart's hourly payroll by $3.21 billion per year, the researchers write. But even if Walmart decided to pass 100 percent of the cost on to customers, store prices would still only increase by 1.1 percent, they say.

Of course since a lot of Walmart employes shop at Walmart , Walmart will have increased sales.

 

[minnie616]

From the link:

'Americans for Tax Fairness, a coalition of 400 national and state-level progressive groups, made this estimate using data from a 2013 study by Democratic Staff of the U.S. Committee on Education and the Workforce.'

This is hardly an internationally respected, unbiased organization that wrote this report.

This is a progressive, FairTax-obsessed bunch.

When a major, unbiased, well-respected group agrees with these numbers, only then will I believe them.

Here is a very recent study from the California Berkley Labor Center

Last Updated Apr 13, 2015 6:20 PM EDT

Here's a stark number for understanding how low-wage employers are relying on the kindness of taxpayers: $153 billion.

That's the annual bill that state and federal governments are footing for working families making poverty-level wages at big corporations such as Walmart (WMT) and McDonald's (MCD), according to a new study from the University of California Berkeley Labor Center. Because these workers are paid so little, they are increasingly turning to government aid programs such as food stamps to keep them from dire poverty, the study found.

​How low-wage employers cost taxpayers $153B a year - CBS News

From the UC Berkley study:

The report analyzed state spending for Medicaid/Children’s Health Insurance Program and Temporary Aid to Needy Families (TANF), and federal spending for those programs and food stamps (SNAP) and the Earned Income Tax Credit (EITC).

The UC Berkeley researchers also report that:

On average, 52 percent of state public assistance spending supports working families, with costs as high as $3.7 billion in California, $3.3 billion in New York and $2 billion in Texas.

Reliance on public assistance can be found among workers in a diverse range of occupations, including frontline fast-food workers (52%), childcare workers (46%), home care workers (48%) and even part-time college faculty (25%).

From 2003 to 2013, wage growth remained flat or negative for the entire bottom 70 percent of workers in the United States, Jacobs said. Over the same time, the share of non-elderly Americans receiving health insurance from an employer fell almost 10 percentage points, from 67 percent to 58 percent. Despite modest pay raises at some of the country’s largest and most profitable employers, including Walmart and McDonald’s, wages continue to lag far behind inflation.

http://newscenter.berkeley.edu/2015/04/13/poverty-level-wages-cost-u-s-taxpayers/

 

[DA60]

Vitamin supplement do not make up for lack of a good diet.


Multivitamins are, at best, a waste of money, Johns Hopkins doctors say | Hub

Oh come on now...you are clearly ignoring the facts you don't like and only focusing on the one's where you think you can make a point.

But I said VITAMINS...with the diet I listed, you do not need a multivitamin. All you really need if you are not eating meat are vit. a and d and B12. You could cheaply buy and consume enough of these with a vitamin just for these ones. And if you work/spend a lot of time outside, you probably already get enough vit. D.
Plus, I already pointed out that you would have enough money at the end of the month so that you could eat meat several times a week within a SNAP diet.


Are you seriously suggesting that a diet that has enough calories, is low in sodium, has plenty of fibre and protein, is low in saturated fats and contains all the basic vitamins/minerals required is a bad diet? YEs or no, please?

 

[minnie616]

Cosco saves Taxpayers money by paying their employees a beginning pay of $11.50 to $12 a hour.
They keep costs low and make a profit.

From a 2013 article Fortune article:

Callans says Costco pays starting hourly workers $11.50 to $12 per hour with increases in pay after just 800 hours of work.
“It’s the philosophy that the founders [Sol Price and Jim Sinegal] brought that if you pay competitive wages and great benefits, you’ll attract great employees,” he says. At Costco, “the average hourly wage in the U.S. is a little over $21 [this includes wages and overtime pay but not extra “bonus” checks], Callans wrote me. Both full- and part-time hourly workers receive bonus checks of around $5,000 annually starting around the five-year mark.

How Costco saves taxpayers money - Fortune

 

[DA60]

Here is a very recent study from the California Berkley Labor Center



​How low-wage employers cost taxpayers $153B a year - CBS News

From the UC Berkley study:



Poverty-level wages cost U.S. taxpayers $153 billion every year

1) they do not specifically list what percentage of those that work full time at minimum wage require...it just say 'low income workers'. That could be full or part time (nor do I much care).

2) I do not know the details of all of these programs and thus do not know whether they are necessary or just welfare excesses that people have gotten used to (nor do I much care).

3) And I think it is extremely irresponsible for people to have children if they are only making minimum wages (and on this - I VERY much care). What kind of irresponsible, moron would try to raise a family on minimum wage...no matter how high it is? And if that offends someone...GOOD. I despise irresponsible parents.


As far as I am concerned, if you have enough food, clothing and shelter (shelter - not a one bedroom apartment..a clean bed with access to a bathroom is enough) and BASIC medical care to survive..then you are getting enough from your employment and that the government owes you NOTHING (assuming you are a sane, reasonably healthy adult). And I believe that FAR AND AWAY most responsible people can survive on today's minimum wage.
If you want more, get a better job. If you cannot..tough.

NOTE - again, if you are handicapped, the state should help you out much more. And all healthy people under 18 should get free, FULL healthcare from the state if their parents are too pathetic to provide it themselves.

 

[minnie616]

From the link:

'Americans for Tax Fairness, a coalition of 400 national and state-level progressive groups, made this estimate using data from a 2013 study by Democratic Staff of the U.S. Committee on Education and the Workforce.'

This is hardly an internationally respected, unbiased organization that wrote this report.

This is a progressive, FairTax-obsessed bunch.

When a major, unbiased, well-respected group agrees with these numbers, only then will I believe them.

American Cancer society and other medical experts reccomend at least 5 servings of fruits and vegetables daily.
The tomatoe sauce is one serving and half a can soup has a few mushrooms. Your fruit cup is one serving.

Now, it's the medical experts who encourage you to add more veggies to your diet, with the American Cancer Society advising at least five servings of fruit and vegetables per day for good health. The Harvard School of Public Health goes even further, recommending nine servings of vegetables and fruits each day. It's enough to make you wonder exactly why vegetables are so important to human health.

Why Are Vegetables Important to the Human Body? | LIVESTRONG.COM

 

[DA60]

American Cancer society and other medical experts reccomend at least 5 servings of fruits and vegetables daily.
The tomatoe sauce is one serving and half a can soup has a few mushrooms. Your fruit cup is one serving.


Why Are Vegetables Important to the Human Body? | LIVESTRONG.COM

Try counting again please...the diet I listed above HAS 5 servings of fruit and vegetables every day.

2 servings of pasta sauce, 2 servings of peaches (one for breakfast and one for supper) and one serving of a fruit cup for lunch.

Last time I looked, that equals five.


And if you want to get picky and make it 9 servings...just add four extra servings of the peaches per day at 68 cents per day (times 30 days equals $20.40..still inside the SNAP budget).


Now for the last time:

Are you seriously suggesting that a diet that has enough calories, is low in sodium, has plenty of fibre and protein, is low in saturated fats and contains all the basic vitamins/minerals required PLUS at least 5 servings of fruit/vegetables per day is not a relatively healthy diet?
Yes or no, please?

 

[AmericanSpartan]

The poor are the engine of prosperity. They need everything and they're ready to buy. All we have to do is give them the money to do it. SNAP and TANF benefits and the benefits of every other transfer program should be expanded so the poor will be able to spend.

How will we pay for it?

Raise taxes.

The wealthy and the merely affluent have a lot of money they aren't using and don't need. Take it from them and give it to the poor. They'll spend it and the economy will boom. Then everyone will be happy. Even those who are paying higher taxes. They'll be selling what the poor are buying and making more money than they're paying in taxes.

It will be a win-win situation.

How stoned were you when you posted this?

 

[Geoist]

Before we get to that point, we have to get beyond the idea taxation is bad. Taxes are the lifeblood of any organized society.

While I am no fan of most taxes, I do agree. We waste our time debating on how much to tax when no one pays attention to the unclaimed community wealth that is being privatized.

 

[JohnfrmClevelan]

Are you seriously suggesting that a diet that has enough calories, is low in sodium, has plenty of fibre and protein, is low in saturated fats and contains all the basic vitamins/minerals required is a bad diet? YEs or no, please?

Yes, I am. That is a crap diet, one that you or I couldn't stand for more than a few days. Inmates eat better. My dog eats better. And any meals you can assemble for $6/day over a sustained period are going to stink, even if you have access to a Walmart.

But this isn't a thread about SNAP - it just went there because you can't come up with a good ECONOMIC reason why the government shouldn't supply a steady, slightly larger income through workfare (or any other program). This country makes plenty of stuff, and there is no reason to make anybody subsist on oatmeal and pasta when they could eat better, especially when we would all be better off for the increased demand.

 

[JohnfrmClevelan]

How stoned were you when you posted this?

Another non-reply from the conservatives.

 

[AmericanSpartan]

Another non-reply from the conservatives.

Coming for the side of "if you disagree with me you are a "racist" or "bigot" or "homephobe" or the classics

If you disagree with me on Global warming you hate science.

If you value border security you "hate" Hispanics.

If you want to reduce immigration you hate immigrates.

If you value the 2nd Amendment you do not care about victims.

If you value unity you hate others who are not like you.

If you value keeping more of your money then your a greedy.

If you love your race, nation, culture, language, customs, tradition, ect then you are a "racist".

The list goes on and on.

 

[winston53660]

Coming for the side of "if you disagree with me you are a "racist" or "bigot" or "homephobe" or the classics

If you disagree with me on Global warming you hate science.

If you value border security you "hate" Hispanics.

If you want to reduce immigration you hate immigrates.

If you value the 2nd Amendment you do not care about victims.

If you value unity you hate others who are not like you.

If you value keeping more of your money then your a greedy.

If you love your race, nation, culture, language, customs, tradition, ect then you are a "racist".

The list goes on and on.