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The Poor Are the Engine of Prosperity

No one is disputing any of that...nor does it CHANGE anything. That means we have THAT MANY PEOPLE dependent on others...whether they want to or not. That number includes kids that kind find minimum wage jobs at fast food restaurants because people have decided thats a viable career option. That doesnt change a thing re the FACTS. Fully 37% of the eligible work force do not work and that is an ever expanding number. Its also true the number of people on government assistance CONTINUES to climb as does the number of people on government health care, disability, etc.
Yes, high school students are dependent upon their parents while they go to school -- big newsflash. And seniors don't have to work until they die because we have Social Security and Medicare -- how horrible!

While you said "nobody is disputing, you originally were claiming that "98 million people are no longer a part of the work force. They have quit...given up. Rolled over." That's opposite of the truth. The truth is that most of those people didn't want to be in the workforce, not that they dropped out.
 
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Debt has continued to spiral out of control. We cant pay for the programs we offer. At some point...your kids or grandkids (assuming you have them) are going to get stuck with the check that they wont be able to pay. And to what end? When 37% of your labor force aged 16 and up have dropped completely out of the workforce, is that enough? When should we pop the cork and really celebrate...at 50%? 82 million are on medicaid. 151 million on government assistance NOT counting programs like EIC. Throw in a flood of illegal immigration, generations of college kids who accumulated a mountain of debt to earn foolish degrees that will ensure they stay nice and unemployable...

Oh yeah...this train is steaming all right...
First, debt is not "out of control" as I have shown in other threads. Second, the number that has dropped out of the workforce is not 37% of those as 16 and up.

Where to you get your numbers? 151 million on public assistance? 82 million on Medicaid? Please cite your sources. Not even CNSNews claimed there were 151 million.
Jeffrey said that in 2013, there were 109,631,000 Americans "on welfare," outnumbering the "105,862,000 full-time year-round workers in the United States."

While the claim is based on real numbers, it’s a fundamentally flawed, apples-and-oranges comparison. The number of "welfare" recipients -- unlike the number of workers -- is enlarged by the inclusion of children and senior citizens. The comparison also ignores that many "welfare" recipients actually work, so trying to separate the two categories creates a false dichotomy. We rate the claim False.

So, let's not pretend that we are having a serious discussion, when some can only argue using made-up facts and figures.
 
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The problem with the poor is that they only consume. They don't generate wealth. Does that mean we should strive to wipe the poor out? No, consuming certainly has a role in this society.

However, too much consumption can be bad.

A strong middle class is always the better way to indicate whether or not a country has a healthy economy. Not a strong poor class :D

There is so much fail, so much selfishness, so much egoism here, I think my brain has been broken.

Did you really just say that?

And the problem with turtles is that they can't climb trees, and the problem with cars is that they can't take us to the moon ..

Of course the poor only consume you nitwit, they don't have piles of money to park in the stock market!!!

Besides, they DO generate wealth, they just generate wealth for OTHERS, when they're consuming stuff.
 
I get it. It's the born on home plate and thinks he hit a run, crowd.

I see that all the time in my neighborhood -- rich kids who don't have to work for anything, insulting the poor because they get "handouts." I rattle them by asking, "what did you do to earn that BMW? Winning the sperm lottery isn't a personal accomplishment - you are no different than welfare recipients."

Its sadly all too common It was put on display a few posts early with the comment about sperm envy. Thats just sad. Yes...be really 'righteous' that someone elses family was successful and handed that success down to future generations. But DONT own the fact that some people families are outright **** ups and have also handed THAT legacy down. No no...blame 'the rich guy'.

Cant speak for anyone else but I have overcome much and feel like I am just getting started. I have provided my kids opportunity...will CONTINUE to. I will provide my grandkids opportunity. I WANT them starting off on uneven footing with their peers. I WANT them starting off 4 and 5 steps up the ladder. My position...shame on those that dont. But thats on them.

The post you are referring to was hardly "sperm envy".

The point was that you cannot credit poor kids for having been dealt a ****ty hand any more than you can credit rich kids for having been dealt a good hand. It's a lot easier to be successful when you start off that way. It's also a lot easier to be poor when you start off that way. It's not "envy" or "blame", it's just how it is.

But don't besmirch the poor just because they don't have the resources to be rich.
 
Yes, high school students are dependent upon their parents while they go to school -- big newsflash. And seniors don't have to work until they die because we have Social Security and Medicare -- how horrible!

While you said "nobody is disputing, you originally were claiming that "98 million people are no longer a part of the work force. They have quit...given up. Rolled over." That's opposite of the truth. The truth is that most of those people didn't want to be in the workforce, not that they dropped out.
Thats not 'the truth'. Thats SOME of those people not all and certainly not the majority.

As for those minors that arent working because people have made minimum wage jobs careers...thats also contributing to the poverty...all those underemployed people really pissed off they cant make a 'living wage' flipping burgers doing the job that 16 year old kid used to do for date money.
 
The post you are referring to was hardly "sperm envy".

The point was that you cannot credit poor kids for having been dealt a ****ty hand any more than you can credit rich kids for having been dealt a good hand. It's a lot easier to be successful when you start off that way. It's also a lot easier to be poor when you start off that way. It's not "envy" or "blame", it's just how it is.

But don't besmirch the poor just because they don't have the resources to be rich.
Sure it is...just as the whining over the wealthy is nothing more than economic penis envy.
 
No one is disputing any of that...nor does it CHANGE anything. That means we have THAT MANY PEOPLE dependent on others...whether they want to or not. That number includes kids that kind find minimum wage jobs at fast food restaurants because people have decided thats a viable career option. That doesnt change a thing re the FACTS. Fully 37% of the eligible work force do not work and that is an ever expanding number. Its also true the number of people on government assistance CONTINUES to climb as does the number of people on government health care, disability, etc.

The retired do not work , they saved money and are enjoying their retirement years.
The indecently wealthy do not need to work and do not not need to rely the government for income. They have their investments.

I have good friends that won the power ball lottery. They don't have to work and haven't worked for the last 20 years.
They invested their winnings wisely.

I was a stay at home at home mom by choice when my children were little.
I did not depend on the government for help.
My husband's income supported our family.

ETA:

My daughter in law gave up her job matching donors for transplants at a very well known Children's hospital when she was expecting.

She does not plan on going back to work until her child/ children are least in school all day.
My son's income supports his family.
They don't depend on the government for help.
 
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There is so much fail, so much selfishness, so much egoism here, I think my brain has been broken.

Did you really just say that?

And the problem with turtles is that they can't climb trees, and the problem with cars is that they can't take us to the moon ..

Of course the poor only consume you nitwit, they don't have piles of money to park in the stock market!!!

Besides, they DO generate wealth, they just generate wealth for OTHERS, when they're consuming stuff.

With automation, the wealth they generate becomes less and less until we can find another branch of jobs that they can do that a robot somehow can't.

The upper and lower middle class truly generates wealth (carpenters, lawyers, accountants, managers, construction workers of any sort, etc.), the poor class rarely generates wealth and that's going to be exacerbated with, as I said before, automation.
 
Thats not 'the truth'. Thats SOME of those people not all and certainly not the majority.

As for those minors that arent working because people have made minimum wage jobs careers...thats also contributing to the poverty...all those underemployed people really pissed off they cant make a 'living wage' flipping burgers doing the job that 16 year old kid used to do for date money.

Sorry, I can't let your callous compassionless conservatism go unanswered.

You previously posted unsubstantiated figures claiming that 37% of the 16+ year old workforce has dropped out. I highly doubt the accuracy of that figure -- but presuming that this previous uncited figure is a fact, claim that high school students can't get those jobs because "people have made minimum wage jobs careers" is also conjecture. First, we don't even know that it's true at all. Second, presuming it is true, you blame people for making minimum wage jobs a career -- as if they are choosing those jobs and forgoing more advanced and better paying work. No, if grown adults are accepting minimum wage positions, it's because better work isn't available to them. There is a myriad of reasons why that could be -- outshoring of labor, lack of educational opportunities, mismatch of skills, etc.

Instead of blaming those who can't get better work and further blame the social safety net for the problem, we should look at policies that create this problem and correct them. The problem is not the social safety net that conservatives think makes the poor's lives too easy. Other nations, such as Sweden, have a far more extensive safety net and they don't have this problem. I look at policies that make it easy (and encourage) companies to outsource labor in foreign lands and policies that do not punish countries for foreign exchange currency manipulation, that make their products cheaper. The cost of higher education is also a factor in locking out a portion of the population. Of course, the minimum wage has not kept up with the cost of living and is a culprit in this problem.

Let's remember, the social safety net was a solution to problems that existed before. So, blaming it for the problem doesn't make sense. It was a response to a problem. Social Security was formed because many to most seniors ended up living in poverty. Today, a majority of Americans over 65 get more than half their income from Social Security, and more than a quarter are almost completely reliant on those monthly checks. That isn't a failing of Social Security. Those people would be homeless and starving had it not been for Social Security. We should be grateful to FDR for coming up with the idea. Instead, conservatives shriek "dependency, dependency!" and ridicule politicians who are making their constituents lives livable, as if they were doing something unseemly.

But what I seem to object to in most of your posts is this your goal in itself is to punish the poor. This view does not rest solely upon you. Unfortunately, it is rampant in State houses, where conservative state politicians refuse Medicaid expansion, that would certainly help their poor constituents, even when the federal government is picking up the bill.
 
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That's around a 79% decrease in those who take state assistance due to a preference not to engage in 24 hours a month of effort by able bodied adults with no children. That speaks rather directly to laziness.

It does not. They may have been dropped from the system because they couldn't comply not because they did.
 
That is also true. For example, our social safety net is stupidly, destructively structured to create welfare cliffs, where we punish people for earning more by costing them an even greater amount in benefits, and positive individual decisions that are solidly linked to economic and social success (such as marriage) are punished. We additionally build high entry thresholds for very low-skill labor, effectively pricing the most vulnerable among us out of the market. Additionally, our education system traps the poor in poor schools, and we do not make much effort to encourage poorer children to make wiser personal decisions that would have salubrious effects on their socio-economic future.

Are you advocating trade schools in place of, say, high school?
 
The problem I see with your idea, is that you think if the government confiscates $100 in taxes,
that that $100 will be given to the poor who will spend all of it.
The economic activity of that $100 will cause the overall economy to increase by say $110.
The reality is that the $100 gets brought in, but maybe only $70 makes it to the poor,
and while their spending could cause some additional activity, it is like maybe $80,
a net loss of $20.

No one ever has accused the government of not spending money. Even if not all of it goes to the poor, it will go to someone, including new employees who formerly were poor when they were hired to administer the increased volume.
 
It has never happened, despite trillions of dollars spent. No economic recovery that I have reviewed has been influenced by investment in poverty. From assistance in various forms, to public housing, etc., nothing indicates your plan has ever had an impact. Again, TRILLIONS have been spent. How would spending any additional funds be different this time?

We've had many prosperous years. How can you say they didn't reflect wealth transfers to the poor?
 
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another example of your misunderstanding what the constitution says. that interpretation of yours could just as easily be used to justify the extermination of the weak, the sick and others who are a burden on society

Probably.

I'm reminded of an opinion offered by Antonin Scalia a few years ago. He said actual innocence is not a bar to execution if the condemned has had his due process.

It would be perfectly legal.
 
No, it's not. Heck even elementary school children know it's in the preamble, they all have to memorize it.

Technically, the document we know as the Constitution is a compact with a constitution. You're right but the point is moot.
 
The poor are the engine of prosperity. They need everything and they're ready to buy. All we have to do is give them the money to do it. SNAP and TANF benefits and the benefits of every other transfer program should be expanded so the poor will be able to spend.

How will we pay for it?

Raise taxes.

The wealthy and the merely affluent have a lot of money they aren't using and don't need. Take it from them and give it to the poor. They'll spend it and the economy will boom. Then everyone will be happy. Even those who are paying higher taxes. They'll be selling what the poor are buying and making more money than they're paying in taxes.

It will be a win-win situation.

Gifts to the United States Government: Questions and Answers: Financial Management Service

here you go now you and people like you can send all the money you want to the federal government of your own free will.
I doubt you will put your money where your mouth is though most do not.
 
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It did work. We did it with the GI Bill in the 50s and built the American middle class from scratch. And then in the 80s, economic aristocrats took power and tried to reverse all that, and we're competing right now to continue with the aristocratic approach or go back to what was actually working, and do more of it.

LOL

The GI Bill? That had nothing to do with poverty. What an irrational and absurd comparison.
 
We've had many prosperous years. How can you say they didn't reflect wealth transfers to the poor?

Show me how they did. For example, under Johnson War on Poverty, we spent billions building housing for the poor. How many have been torn down? Have you viewed the statistics?

One of the most significant improvements in poverty came about when the Republican Congress put through Welfare Reform during the Clinton Administration. The key factor to the reform involved taking responsibility and obtaining a job. Look at the return when the assistance no longer came without any expectations. People didn't starve, they didn't pour out of housing to live in cardboard boxes. They got jobs, and learned skills, and they changed their economic reality.

There are families who have lived for generations on the public dole. Rewarded for accomplishing nothing more than existing and having kids, this is a crushing statistic.

So people call for more spending. What is going to be different this time?
 
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