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The pictures of Abugreyab

TJS0110

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You all remember Abugreyab right? Well the government has resently said that it will not release anymore of the pictures that it has from that incedent. They will not even release the statement they made that sais why they won't release the pictures. I won't to here what you think about this. I want to here if you think the government is right in not releaseing these pictures or if it is wrong. I also want you to support your claims( and not with propaganda) I want fact.

I'm sure i spelled abugreyab wrong. Sorry
 

Billo_Really

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Because, like anyone that doesn't want you to see something, they have something to hide. If we were on the up and up, we would have no problem letting the media see what is going on. Bush won't even allow reporters to show the caskets coming back from Iraq. Why can't we see them? What is he hiding? What don't they want us to know?

Maybe that we torture 10 year olds at Abu Ghraib? Or that there have been reports that we have up to 107 children in custody there. And that some of these children are being tortured! Along with some of the adults being tortured.

Nobody seems to want to deal with this. They just dismiss the report as propaganda to discredit the occupation troops. But they do this without trying to find out the truth for themselves. Just look the other way and act like you didn't hear it.

Here's a little part of the article.

Iraq's Child Prisoners By Neil Mackay The Sunday Herald
Sunday 01 August 2004

A Sunday Herald investigation has discovered that coalition forces are holding more than 100 children in jails such as Abu Ghraib. Witnesses claim that the detainees - some as young as 10 - are also being subjected to rape and torture.

It was early last October that Kasim Mehaddi Hilas says he witnessed the rape of a boy prisoner aged about 15 in the notorious Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq. "The kid was hurting very bad and they covered all the doors with sheets," he said in a statement given to investigators probing prisoner abuse in Abu Ghraib. "Then, when I heard the screaming I climbed the door ... and I saw [the soldier's name is deleted] who was wearing a military uniform." Hilas, who was himself threatened with being sexually assaulted in Abu Ghraib, then describes in horrific detail how the soldier raped "the little kid".

In another witness statement, passed to the Sunday Herald, former prisoner Thaar Salman Dawod said: "[I saw] two boys naked and they were cuffed together face to face and [a US soldier] was beating them and a group of guards were watching and taking pictures and there was three female soldiers laughing at the prisoners. The prisoners, two of them, were young."

It's not certain exactly how many children are being held by coalition forces in Iraq, but a Sunday Herald investigation suggests there are up to 107. Their names are not known, nor is where they are being kept, how long they will be held or what has happened to them during their detention.

Proof of the widespread arrest and detention of children in Iraq by US and UK forces is contained in an internal UNICEF report written in June. The report has - surprisingly - not been made public. A key section on child protection, headed "Children in Conflict with the Law or with Coalition Forces", reads: "In July and August 2003, several meetings were conducted with CPA (Coalition Provisional Authority) ... and Ministry of Justice to address issues related to juvenile justice and the situation of children detained by the coalition forces ... UNICEF is working through a variety of channels to try and learn more about conditions for children who are imprisoned or detained, and to ensure that their rights are respected."

Another section reads: "Information on the number, age, gender and conditions of incarceration is limited. In Basra and Karbala children arrested for alleged activities targeting the occupying forces are reported to be routinely transferred to an internee facility in Um Qasr. The categorisation of these children as 'internees' is worrying since it implies indefinite holding without contact with family, expectation of trial or due process."

The report also states: "A detention centre for children was established in Baghdad, where according to ICRC (International Committee of the Red Cross) a significant number of children were detained. UNICEF was informed that the coalition forces were planning to transfer all children in adult facilities to this 'specialised' child detention centre. In July 2003, UNICEF requested a visit to the centre but access was denied. Poor security in the area of the detention centre has prevented visits by independent observers like the ICRC since last December.

"The perceived unjust detention of Iraqi males, including youths, for suspected activities against the occupying forces has become one of the leading causes for the mounting frustration among Iraqi youths and the potential for radicalisation of this population group."

Journalists in Germany have also been investigating the detention and abuse of children in Iraq. One reporter, Thomas Reutter of the TV programme Report Mainz, interviewed a US army sergeant called Samuel Provance, who is banned from speaking about his six months stationed in Abu Ghraib but told Reutter of how one 16-year-old Iraqi boy was arrested.

"He was terribly afraid," Provance said. "He had the skinniest arms I've ever seen. He was trembling all over. His wrists were so thin we couldn't even put handcuffs on him. Right when I saw him for the first time, and took him for interrogation, I felt sorry for him."

"The interrogation specialists poured water over him and put him into a car. Then they drove with him through the night, and at that time it was very, very cold. Then they smeared him with mud and showed him to his father, who was also in custody. They had tried out other interrogation methods on him, but he wasn't to be brought to talk. The interrogation specialists told me, after the father had seen his son in this state, his heart broke. He wept and promised to tell them everything they wanted to know."
An Iraqi TV reporter Suhaib Badr-Addin al-Baz saw the Abu Ghraib children's wing when he was arrested by Americans while making a documentary. He spent 74 days in Abu Ghraib.

"I saw a camp for children there," he said. "Boys, under the age of puberty. There were certainly hundreds of children in this camp." Al-Baz said he heard a 12-year-old girl crying. Her brother was also held in the jail. One night guards came into her cell. "She was beaten," said al-Baz. "I heard her call out, 'They have undressed me. They have poured water over me.'"

He says he heard her cries and whimpering daily - this, in turn, caused other prisoners to cry as they listened to her. Al-Baz also told of an ill 15-year-old boy who was soaked repeatedly with hoses until he collapsed. Guards then brought in the child's father with a hood over his head. The boy collapsed again.

Although most of the children are held in US custody, the Sunday Herald has established that some are held by the British Army. British soldiers tend to arrest children in towns like Basra, which are under UK control, then hand the youngsters over to the Americans who interrogate them and detain them.

Between January and May this year the Red Cross registered a total of 107 juveniles in detention during 19 visits to six coalition prisons. The aid organisation's Rana Sidani said they had no complete information about the ages of those detained, or how they had been treated. The deteriorating security situation has prevented the Red Cross visiting all detention centres.

Amnesty International is outraged by the detention of children. It is aware of "numerous human rights violations against Iraqi juveniles, including detentions, torture and ill-treatment, and killings". Amnesty has interviewed former detainees who say they've seen boys as young as 10 in Abu Ghraib.


http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/080405S.shtml

This report is so disgusting, I really don't know what to say without wanting rip the head off these neo's that defend our new definitions of detainees and our new interrogation techniques as outlined by a Justice Dept. 2002 memo.

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/080105I.shtml

What moral high ground do we come from now?
 

TJS0110

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Ok very good you backed everything with reported facts. I pose another question how can we get the information out of hardened prisoners without infrenging on there human rights? If we dont get them to talk fast enough soldiers die but if we are to hard on them we are infringing on there human rights. So i ask what do you think is the best way to get this information.

I'd like your opinion not quotes, and this is for anyone to answer.
 

Billo_Really

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Originally posted by TJS0110:
Ok very good you backed everything with reported facts. I pose another question how can we get the information out of hardened prisoners without infrenging on there human rights? If we dont get them to talk fast enough soldiers die but if we are to hard on them we are infringing on there human rights. So i ask what do you think is the best way to get this information.

I'd like your opinion not quotes, and this is for anyone to answer.
I'm not an expert in interrogation. But from what I've heard, CIA interrogaters have said that prisoners that are tortured will say anything to stop the pain. Even if that means lie. They have also said that they have been able to extract more information just by being nice. That's what they say.

But you want my opinion. Ok. It is wrong to refer to them (or treat them) as a terrorist without due process of law. I don't care who you are, or what you have done, everyone on this planet deserves due process of law. EVERYONE!

I would like to see how you came to the conclusion that if they don't talk fast GI's will die. That's quite a reach.
 

TJS0110

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I simply meant that if you find out about a planned attack two days after it happens whats the point. I do not support torture but if you give every prisoner a trial how will you ever get anything done? How much money will that cost? Do prisoners of war realy have right to a trial.

I'm not saying i support anything i say im jsut asking questions
 

stsburns

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Billo_Really said:
Because, like anyone that doesn't want you to see something, they have something to hide. If we were on the up and up, we would have no problem letting the media see what is going on. Bush won't even allow reporters to show the caskets coming back from Iraq. Why can't we see them? What is he hiding? What don't they want us to know?

Maybe that we torture 10 year olds at Abu Ghraib? Or that there have been reports that we have up to 107 children in custody there. And that some of these children are being tortured! Along with some of the adults being tortured.

Nobody seems to want to deal with this. They just dismiss the report as propaganda to discredit the occupation troops. But they do this without trying to find out the truth for themselves. Just look the other way and act like you didn't hear it.

Here's a little part of the article.

Iraq's Child Prisoners By Neil Mackay The Sunday Herald
Sunday 01 August 2004

A Sunday Herald investigation has discovered that coalition forces are holding more than 100 children in jails such as Abu Ghraib. Witnesses claim that the detainees - some as young as 10 - are also being subjected to rape and torture.

It was early last October that Kasim Mehaddi Hilas says he witnessed the rape of a boy prisoner aged about 15 in the notorious Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq. "The kid was hurting very bad and they covered all the doors with sheets," he said in a statement given to investigators probing prisoner abuse in Abu Ghraib. "Then, when I heard the screaming I climbed the door ... and I saw [the soldier's name is deleted] who was wearing a military uniform." Hilas, who was himself threatened with being sexually assaulted in Abu Ghraib, then describes in horrific detail how the soldier raped "the little kid".

In another witness statement, passed to the Sunday Herald, former prisoner Thaar Salman Dawod said: "[I saw] two boys naked and they were cuffed together face to face and [a US soldier] was beating them and a group of guards were watching and taking pictures and there was three female soldiers laughing at the prisoners. The prisoners, two of them, were young."

It's not certain exactly how many children are being held by coalition forces in Iraq, but a Sunday Herald investigation suggests there are up to 107. Their names are not known, nor is where they are being kept, how long they will be held or what has happened to them during their detention.

Proof of the widespread arrest and detention of children in Iraq by US and UK forces is contained in an internal UNICEF report written in June. The report has - surprisingly - not been made public. A key section on child protection, headed "Children in Conflict with the Law or with Coalition Forces", reads: "In July and August 2003, several meetings were conducted with CPA (Coalition Provisional Authority) ... and Ministry of Justice to address issues related to juvenile justice and the situation of children detained by the coalition forces ... UNICEF is working through a variety of channels to try and learn more about conditions for children who are imprisoned or detained, and to ensure that their rights are respected."

Another section reads: "Information on the number, age, gender and conditions of incarceration is limited. In Basra and Karbala children arrested for alleged activities targeting the occupying forces are reported to be routinely transferred to an internee facility in Um Qasr. The categorisation of these children as 'internees' is worrying since it implies indefinite holding without contact with family, expectation of trial or due process."

The report also states: "A detention centre for children was established in Baghdad, where according to ICRC (International Committee of the Red Cross) a significant number of children were detained. UNICEF was informed that the coalition forces were planning to transfer all children in adult facilities to this 'specialised' child detention centre. In July 2003, UNICEF requested a visit to the centre but access was denied. Poor security in the area of the detention centre has prevented visits by independent observers like the ICRC since last December.

"The perceived unjust detention of Iraqi males, including youths, for suspected activities against the occupying forces has become one of the leading causes for the mounting frustration among Iraqi youths and the potential for radicalisation of this population group."

Journalists in Germany have also been investigating the detention and abuse of children in Iraq. One reporter, Thomas Reutter of the TV programme Report Mainz, interviewed a US army sergeant called Samuel Provance, who is banned from speaking about his six months stationed in Abu Ghraib but told Reutter of how one 16-year-old Iraqi boy was arrested.

"He was terribly afraid," Provance said. "He had the skinniest arms I've ever seen. He was trembling all over. His wrists were so thin we couldn't even put handcuffs on him. Right when I saw him for the first time, and took him for interrogation, I felt sorry for him."

"The interrogation specialists poured water over him and put him into a car. Then they drove with him through the night, and at that time it was very, very cold. Then they smeared him with mud and showed him to his father, who was also in custody. They had tried out other interrogation methods on him, but he wasn't to be brought to talk. The interrogation specialists told me, after the father had seen his son in this state, his heart broke. He wept and promised to tell them everything they wanted to know."
An Iraqi TV reporter Suhaib Badr-Addin al-Baz saw the Abu Ghraib children's wing when he was arrested by Americans while making a documentary. He spent 74 days in Abu Ghraib.

"I saw a camp for children there," he said. "Boys, under the age of puberty. There were certainly hundreds of children in this camp." Al-Baz said he heard a 12-year-old girl crying. Her brother was also held in the jail. One night guards came into her cell. "She was beaten," said al-Baz. "I heard her call out, 'They have undressed me. They have poured water over me.'"

He says he heard her cries and whimpering daily - this, in turn, caused other prisoners to cry as they listened to her. Al-Baz also told of an ill 15-year-old boy who was soaked repeatedly with hoses until he collapsed. Guards then brought in the child's father with a hood over his head. The boy collapsed again.

Although most of the children are held in US custody, the Sunday Herald has established that some are held by the British Army. British soldiers tend to arrest children in towns like Basra, which are under UK control, then hand the youngsters over to the Americans who interrogate them and detain them.

Between January and May this year the Red Cross registered a total of 107 juveniles in detention during 19 visits to six coalition prisons. The aid organisation's Rana Sidani said they had no complete information about the ages of those detained, or how they had been treated. The deteriorating security situation has prevented the Red Cross visiting all detention centres.

Amnesty International is outraged by the detention of children. It is aware of "numerous human rights violations against Iraqi juveniles, including detentions, torture and ill-treatment, and killings". Amnesty has interviewed former detainees who say they've seen boys as young as 10 in Abu Ghraib.


http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/080405S.shtml

This report is so disgusting, I really don't know what to say without wanting rip the head off these neo's that defend our new definitions of detainees and our new interrogation techniques as outlined by a Justice Dept. 2002 memo.

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/080105I.shtml

What moral high ground do we come from now?
Billo surely you are aware that terrorist organizations strap bombs to their women and children? :confused:
 

Billo_Really

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Originally posted by stsburns:
Billo surely you are aware that terrorist organizations strap bombs to their women and children?
Yes I am. And it is more wrong than the alleged treatment of detainees at Abu Ghraib.

As for Abu Ghraib and the US military, in the interests of fairness, it has been reported by the ICRC that, although they have made several protests and recommendations to prison administration officials, progress is being made at the facility with respect to the treatment prisoners.

http://www.icrc.org/web/eng/siteeng0.nsf/iwpList322/390ADD750F7681DAC1256E9100544C05
 

MSgt

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Still with this garbage? Some prisoners were humiliated and some weekend warrior Army National Guard Reservists (that shouldn't have been over there anyway) were NJP'd and Court Martialed. Officers were relieved and careers were ended. One could argue that had the prison been under the charge of more proffessional regular Army Soldiers or Marines, then it would have never happened, but that is neither here nor there.

Instead of revelling in our blunders, why don't we start fingering the vast majority of nations (including our allies) out there that practice far worse than our isolated incident and.....are never called on to the carpet. This will never happen as long as the world media, including ours, is solely focused on American activity. What luxury for the rest of the world.

We have nothing to be embarrased about, but we allow them to make us feel embarrassed. Why? - Because the European hypocritical masses will point every time we slip, because they sit, watch our media, and wait for it. What we should be embarrased about is how our own people chose to join these hypocritical masses as they lied and created stories from exxagerations and less than credible "eyewitness" reports, and offered and demanded apologies for being less than perfect. BUT as long as they managed to lower the polls of a rival President, who cares what else it hurt.
 

TJS0110

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I agree with a point he made that the pricon should have been guarded and occupied by soldiers trained in prisoner detanement.

Keep talken
 

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GySgt said:
Still with this garbage? Some prisoners were humiliated and some weekend warrior Army National Guard Reservists (that shouldn't have been over there anyway) were NJP'd and Court Martialed. Officers were relieved and careers were ended. One could argue that had the prison been under the charge of more proffessional regular Army Soldiers or Marines, then it would have never happened, but that is neither here nor there.

Instead of revelling in our blunders, why don't we start fingering the vast majority of nations (including our allies) out there that practice far worse than our isolated incident and.....are never called on to the carpet. This will never happen as long as the world media, including ours, is solely focused on American activity. What luxury for the rest of the world.

We have nothing to be embarrased about, but we allow them to make us feel embarrassed. Why? - Because the European hypocritical masses will point every time we slip, because they sit, watch our media, and wait for it. What we should be embarrased about is how our own people chose to join these hypocritical masses as they lied and created stories from exxagerations and less than credible "eyewitness" reports, and offered and demanded apologies for being less than perfect. BUT as long as they managed to lower the polls of a rival President, who cares what else it hurt.

I think there is a lot to be embarassed about when prisoners under S custody die as a result of interrogation methods used (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/02/AR2005080201941.html); there is a lot to be embarassed, actually ashamed of, when we close our eyes or ears when we deny an individual his human rights, when we imprison people (and no, not all of them are terrorists) and don't allow them a chance to defend themselves in court. The good news is that despite the administration's blind eye on torture, many officials in the military, fbi agents and soldiers were disgusted by what they saw and stood up for what was right. Those are the people who filed the complaints or submitted their written testimony despite being threatened by others. These are the people we should praise.
http://action.aclu.org/torturefoia/released/072605/1329_1330.pdf


Instead of revelling in our blunders
Criticizing and admitting mistakes is the first step if you want to make things better.

Now back to the photos. Number one reason why the government does not want to release them is because those are the worst ones in terms of what was done to the prisoners; the second reason I suspect is that they show that the torture was more common that they would like us to think.

In the legal brief the government though argues that the pictures should not be released even in the redacted form because they may instigate violence (... as if there was none right now...:roll: ) and put the lives of soldiers in danger. The brief is here http://www.aclu.org/Files/OpenFile.cfm?id=18834

This makes you wonder how bad they really are. BTW there are also videos of the torture that have not been released yet.
 

Bestial_Pagan

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I don´t understand this fuzz about abu-ghraib. In army we did those practical jokes to each other almost every night.
 

Gandhi>Bush

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Can you give me an example?

Were you stripped naked and forced to lay on other naked men?

I guess I'm not following...
 

Simon W. Moon

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Bestial_Pagan said:
I don´t understand this fuzz about abu-ghraib. In army we did those practical jokes to each other almost every night.
Including the rape and murder parts? Every night?
You crazy Fins.
What about hiding the dead bodies on ice? Did you just save that for the weekends?
 

Bestial_Pagan

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Gandhi>Bush said:
Were you stripped naked and forced to lay on other naked men?
No but we tied recruits with dogchains and put em to snuff toiletfloors.
 

Gandhi>Bush

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And that's all that's happened at Abu Grahib?
 

Bestial_Pagan

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I think it was unfortunate coincidence that someone got killed but most of the stuff they did I just raise my shoulders (or how the saying goes) and think for example about what they do in french jails.

Where is the sense of relativity these days?
Some country acts, it´s a crime. Other does same, I can´t hear a thing.
 
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Gandhi>Bush

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It doesn't matter to me how the French treat their prisoners. That is the business of Frenchmen.
 

nkgupta80

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Well if you're an american it should matter how americans treat theirs regardless of what other countries do. We should hold ourselves at a higher standard than everyone else.
 

Bestial_Pagan

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nkgupta80 said:
Well if you're an american it should matter how americans treat theirs regardless of what other countries do. We should hold ourselves at a higher standard than everyone else.
I know that. That´s why I don´t want to hear word democracy from any european politicians rotting mouth until they start to play with same rules. I have high respect for american democracy.
PS. I am not american.
 

Gandhi>Bush

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If we are the greatest country in the world, we should prove it. I am an American, and it is my business to know what people are doing in my name.
 

Bestial_Pagan

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Gandhi>Bush said:
If we are the greatest country in the world, we should prove it. I am an American, and it is my business to know what people are doing in my name.
There is no "greatest" country. Just different systems, beliefs, religions and cultures which don´t seem to come along.
 
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tiktok

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Gandhi>Bush said:
I am an American, and it is my business to know what people are doing in my name.
It's 5am and I've been up most of the night editing, so forgive my lacklustre post...

What you have said here Gandhi deserves a thread of its own.

One of the most heinous things about this war is accountability, or a lack of. The gulf that has grown between the US and Europe, or more accurately between Europeans and Americans is the percieved lack of accountability America takes.

Abu Ghraib was widely touted in the press - long before the actual "trials" - as being a farce.

And they were.

Comparisons with Israel are of course, my speciality... It is a fact that the Israeli army has an unrealistic view on how its soldiers behave.

It feeds distrust and, ultimately, hate.

No different the Americans.

The US takes the moral high ground over the war, when it is duplicitous in its treatment of those who would break international law, it loses that high ground. Hence the gap between Europe/eans and America/ns.

And re your reponse Si... Yes u do have the right to know what is being done in your name. It is your duty as a citizen of America and a member of the tribe known as man, to ensure that justice is exacted in your name and in an appropriate manner.

I hope this makes sense...

My tok is, by now, sounding like a tik...

>>Yawn<<
 

TJS0110

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I've started such a great thread I'm so happy.:lol:
 

tiktok

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U have but ya gotta learn how to spell Abu Ghraib

LOL

nice thread
 
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