The Part Of America Without Education

specklebang · Jul 18, 2013

That's a profound societal change you advocate. A 32 hour workweek? OK by me but I see that many employers are already going part time, which doubles the number of jobs - the hard way.

My son is one of those programmers and makes $100K a year. It's not so easy. He can get a job anywhere and were he willing to leave Las Vegas, get more like $150K.

Interesting that you say we have 11 million unemployed. Does that number ring a bell? Almost identical to the number of illegal aliens? Just saying.

Job creation is exactly the opposite of what is happening. Unless you're comfortable with massive market intervention by the USG, this trend will continue. There's more hope of teaching some to do the jobs we have than there is of making jobs appear by fiat.

imagep said:
I personally suspect that those jobs aren't as plentiful as people are claiming they are.

A lot of companies will constantly advertise for positions, even though they might not have an immediate need. They do this to to build a portfolio of applications that they can draw from later when a spot does come open. I also think that some business owners and managers just like to claim that they can't find people with skills, when in reality they simply aren't willing (or able) to pay enough to get those people. I mean if I could find a great web programmer, capable of creating high end interactive web based applications, for maybe $10/hr, I would hire one in a heartbeat, but people with those types of skills generally wouldn't be willing to work for $10/hr, nor should they have to.

According to this, There Are 4 Million U.S. Job Openings: Why Are The Positions Unfilled? - Forbes, we have 4 million unfilled jobs. I suspect that is highly inflated, but even if we did, according to this, Employment Situation Summary, we have 11.8 million people who are unemployed and have looked for a job in the past 30 days. So that still nearly a 7 million job deficit, even if we filled every single job opening today.

I otherwords, even if everyone was well trained for every job, we would still have a shortage of jobs, so it looks to me that job training isn't the answer - job creation, or job sharing of some sort (shorter working hours) is the answer.

imagep · Jul 18, 2013

specklebang said:
I see a flaw in your concept. The people that are so out of work that they are workfare eligible aren't very good at anything. These are not people that should be armed or in charge of anything. What kind of jobs will you give them? Fire the school board custodians and replace them with workfarers? How unfair is that? Believe me, in principle it sounds good but in practice, not so much. And who pays for this anyway? The Feds? The State?

As for your crack about lowering taxes driving revenues, we both know that is sheer, unadulterated bull****. There are intelligent balances but realistically, lower taxes make higher deficits. Do we care? I don't know, that's another topic altogether.

It would be cheaper and easier to just let some be on welfare. If its really enough for them, then so be it. The bottom and the top get too much attention in this country. What about the majority, who get up every day and go to work at some decent but stressful job or operate small businesses? That's right, I said most. Maybe I'm full of ****. I see millions of people with real jobs and I don't think those jobs are so elusive for those who try.

I just can't even imagine the cluster**** that the government would be as an employer. They barely function now. Unless your real objective is to provide jobs for overweight bureaucrats, we have a better chance of breeding unicorns than we do "mock hiring" people. Isn't there 20K border patrol jobs coming up? You know, if we hired more like 2 million border guards....we'd solve 2 problems at the same time. Just please don't arm them. They can tackle the border runners.

I see your point, with all of that.

But my theory is that the taxpayer wouldn't have to actually hire every unemployed person or welfare case. My lower taxes plan is largely based on the concept that if people could keep more of their own money in their pockets, they would have more to spend, save and invest. The increase in spending would increase demand, and employers would have a need to hire more people, which would then create even more demand (by more people having more bucks in their pocket), and the private sector would then need to hire even more. And of course companies will not hire people unless it is profitable for them to do so, thus assumably business profits would also increase.

At least some unemployed people or welfare slackers do have skills, or could acquire skills, and could become useful to society, but just about anyone can pick up trash along our roads, that doesn't take a lot of skill. Heck, I'd rather pay someone $X dollars a week to pick up trash along side the road, than to pay them to do nothing. If they have to actually work for their pay, they might just decide prefer to take one of the private sector jobs that we created by lowering taxes. My suggestion of more government employees is more of a replacement for means tested welfare, than a way to improve our economy. Get slackers used to working - or let them starve.

imagep · Jul 18, 2013

specklebang said:
Interesting that you say we have 11 million unemployed. Does that number ring a bell? Almost identical to the number of illegal aliens? Just saying.

Hmm, but I thought you just shot down my idea of better protecting our borders. And you claim that I contradict myself.

specklebang · Jul 18, 2013

I (mistakenly) got the impression you already had done that.

Well, I have no debts. If I won a million dollars, I would give it all away rather than buying anything I don't need. I love my house, my car and my cats. I have art, furniture and curiosities from all over the world. The main reason I don't own a TV is because my library takes up that wall where it would go and I really don't watch much video, not that I can't afford one.

So, I'm part of the problem and you will be too. And you. And you.

imagep said:
At this point in my life, I would probably just pay off personal and business debt, so that one day I can retire and give some "youngen" the opportunity to take over my job at work.

specklebang · Jul 18, 2013

Back to starving them out again? I feel like we've gone in a complete circle.

I'm a fan of your lower taxes plan but I did ask you an important question about that and maybe I overlooked your response?

In my state, roadside trash is a community service function. Seems to work.

No, I didn't mean to shoot down any border protection plans. I must have gotten confused somewhere.

Anyway, its been a great conversation.

imagep said:
I see your point, with all of that.

But my theory is that the taxpayer wouldn't have to actually hire every unemployed person or welfare case. My lower taxes plan is largely based on the concept that if people could keep more of their own money in their pockets, they would have more to spend, save and invest. The increase in spending would increase demand, and employers would have a need to hire more people, which would then create even more demand (by more people having more bucks in their pocket), and the private sector would then need to hire even more. And of course companies will not hire people unless it is profitable for them to do so, thus assumably business profits would also increase.

At least some unemployed people or welfare slackers do have skills, or could acquire skills, and could become useful to society, but just about anyone can pick up trash along our roads, that doesn't take a lot of skill. Heck, I'd rather pay someone $X dollars a week to pick up trash along side the road, than to pay them to do nothing. If they have to actually work for their pay, they might just decide prefer to take one of the private sector jobs that we created by lowering taxes. My suggestion of more government employees is more of a replacement for means tested welfare, than a way to improve our economy. Get slackers used to working - or let them starve.

imagep · Jul 18, 2013

specklebang said:
In my state, roadside trash is a community service function. Seems to work.

So if that function was taken over by slackers and unemployed people, then doing so would make the community more wealthy, because people wouldn't have a need to spend their leisure time picking up trash. Those that enjoy community service work, and have some work skills, could probably find plenty of other volunteer opportunities to fill their time. I frequently volunteer to help out the high school marching band program. Last year I even drove to Alabama, at my own expense, even though I no longer have a child in high school, to help prepare meals for the 250 students and staff members at a competition. I also have helped with the creation of the props used for their show for the past 6 years...

specklebang · Jul 18, 2013

Well, here the term "community service" is for punishment. So nobody gets paid. The people doing it are the slackers that got arrested for petty crimes. So, now we'd have to pay them?

You're a good guy.

imagep said:
So if that function was taken over by slackers and unemployed people, then doing so would make the community more wealthy, because people wouldn't have a need to spend their leisure time picking up trash. Those that enjoy community service work, and have some work skills, could probably find plenty of other volunteer opportunities to fill their time. I frequently volunteer to help out the high school marching band program. Last year I even drove to Alabama, at my own expense, even though I no longer have a child in high school, to help prepare meals for the 250 students and staff members at a competition. I also have helped with the creation of the props used for their show for the past 6 years...

ttwtt78640 · Jul 19, 2013

imagep said:
Exactly. We have a system that makes no sense at all.

Yup, I agree. Not actually, what I want to do is increase the number of jobs, so that wages will rise. Produce more stuff. Personally, I could use a vacation house, a few new cars, and a new wardrobe. The more we produce, the higher the standard of living that we can all have. That seems pretty obvious to me, I thought that you understood economics, it should be obvious to you to. Do you really believe that there is no more work that needs to be done in this world?

It's also the same thing as a demand shortage. Increase demand, companies will seek to fill that demand, they will purchase more equipment and buildings, they will hire more employees, they will make more money, the employee shortage will be over, thus leading to an increase in wages, and we will have a more wealthy society.

OK, in order for you to order that new vacation house, new cars and new clothes just exactly what must be done? The idea of stimulus, causing money (from?) to be pumped into the hands of consumers will work once; after that "stimulus" money is spent then demand is met and we are right back where we started from but have more debt. Our federal gov't now spends far more than it dare ask for in direct taxation and our congress critters are very, very unlikely to bite the hand that feeds them campaign cash and actually have the taxation raised to cover their lavish spending habits.

imagep · Jul 19, 2013

specklebang said:
Well, here the term "community service" is for punishment. So nobody gets paid. The people doing it are the slackers that got arrested for petty crimes. So, now we'd have to pay them?

You're a good guy.

I'm sure that there is enough work that needs to be done in the world that some can be paid, some can be punishment, and some can be totally volunteer out of the goodness of ones heart.

imagep · Jul 19, 2013

ttwtt78640 said:
OK, in order for you to order that new vacation house, new cars and new clothes just exactly what must be done?

Well a tax cut would be nice. But there are other options.

Maybe I could win the lottery.
Maybe I could make more money due to my customers getting tax cuts (or more welfare money, or raises, or winning the lottery)
Maybe I could inherit some money.
Or maybe I could just work longer, or harder, or smarter.

Any of that will work, some is more likely to happen than others, and some is more productive than others.

ttwtt78640 · Jul 19, 2013

imagep said:
Well a tax cut would be nice. But there are other options.

Maybe I could win the lottery.
Maybe I could make more money due to my customers getting tax cuts (or more welfare money, or raises, or winning the lottery)
Maybe I could inherit some money.
Or maybe I could just work longer, or harder, or smarter.

Any of that will work, some is more likely to happen than others, and some is more productive than others.

The only gov't controlled option, that you mentioned, was a tax cut, which was precisely what Obama said caused the economic "crisis" to begin - the "Bush" tax cuts. Of course, Obama kept taxation the same as Bush for 98.6% of the folks and raised taxes only for 1.4% of "the rich" adding a mere $60 billion in additional annual revenue. I agree that none of your demand increasing ideas is likely to happen.

specklebang · Jul 19, 2013

I can't really evaluate "the whole world" but I think you'll find that employment of this type doesn't work like that.

Lets say that we have just 100,000 people in Los Angeles that are out of work. Do you think you can use 100K people nearby? Or will they have to commuted to ND every day?

It's not so simple. Maybe people should relocate to find a place that needs them but I'm sure you know the costs of moving unless you're a single guy who lives in a furnished room and doesn't own anything. In which case, how much money do you really need?

I think you credit the government with too much capability. Maybe we can buy bigger bombs than anybody else and we can surround and attack countries like Iraq in less than a year but mostly, the bureaucracy is not that efficient.

I don't know if you're into reading but if you are, this book, BEGGARS IN SPAIN by Nancy Kress will show you what happens when automation and inventiveness eliminate most jobs.

You'll read about the 3 categories of society, The Sleepless (think of our rulers), the Donkeys (think of our bureaucrats) and the Livers (think of our unemployed living comfortably on the dole). Sure it's Sci-Fi written in the 80s but the ideas are valid. This book is recognize as the antitheses of John Galt.

what do productive and responsible members of society owe the "beggars in Spain," the unproductive masses who have nothing to offer except need?

imagep said:
I'm sure that there is enough work that needs to be done in the world that some can be paid, some can be punishment, and some can be totally volunteer out of the goodness of ones heart.

JayGatsby · Jul 20, 2013

imagep said:
The down side of that story is that someone who did have a truly decent education (with or without a college degree), and could effectively communicate through writing, lost the opportunity to be middle class, and is now likely a bagger in a grocery store.

and it gets worse, since conservatives claim the bagger job is only for teenagers who live at home, they will pay you a measly 7.25$ hour wage, that continues to have less purchasing power every year.....

TheGirlNextDoor · Jul 21, 2013

JayGatsby said:
and it gets worse, since conservatives claim the bagger job is only for teenagers who live at home, they will pay you a measly 7.25$ hour wage, that continues to have less purchasing power every year.....

So how much should bangers earn?

JayGatsby · Jul 21, 2013

TheGirlNextDoor said:
So how much should bangers earn?

Oh no, not another minimum wage argument.... I just think it should be tied to inflation, lets leave it at that

Μολὼν λαβέ · Jul 25, 2013

imagep said:
Just in case you guys haven't noticed, we currently have a shortage of jobs. Particularly good ones. There's simply not enough jobs for everyone who wants one to have one. Anytime that you have a limited number of anything, then one person gets more, someone else gets less.

Now granted one can start his own business, and thus create his own job, but most people aren't cut out for that.

Then logic would seem to dictate that there are too many people in the country to compete for too few jobs. Think illegal immigration adds to that conundrum? Who probably suffers the most? My guess is black Americans.

Yes, and contrary to some beliefs, there will always be inequity in human intelligence, aptitudes, and personal motivation, which includes seeking and accessing educational resources and/or US military service. These are trying times and those who have or create an advantage will generate the most success for themselves.

imagep · Jul 26, 2013

Μολὼν λαβέ;1062104940 said:
Then logic would seem to dictate that there are too many people in the country to compete for too few jobs.

No, there is not enough demand to create ample jobs for the population that we have. Increasing demand is the key, not decreasing population. If we decreased our population, demand would also decrease, and thus there would be even fewer jobs, and we would need to decrease population more, which would of course cause demand to drop even more, and we would have an endless cycle of reducing population.

Think illegal immigration adds to that conundrum? Who probably suffers the most? My guess is black Americans.

I really don't know why that would effect black Americans more than any other group.

Yes, and contrary to some beliefs, there will always be inequity in human intelligence, aptitudes, and personal motivation, which includes seeking and accessing educational resources and/or US military service. These are trying times and those who have or create an advantage will generate the most success for themselves.

So what should happen to those who are the least capable or motivated? Should they just starve or live in cardboard boxes? Or were you suggesting that we should somehow eliminate them from our population?

Mach · Aug 5, 2013

specklebang said:
I'm not following your logic.
If citizen A gets a job, citizen B can't get one? Seriously?

Imagep, bless his heart, is firmly a fixed-pie kind of guy Some have tried hard to change his mind on that, all have failed.
still bro-love ya imagep.

specklebang · Aug 5, 2013

Mach said:
Imagep, bless his heart, is firmly a fixed-pie kind of guy Some have tried hard to change his mind on that, all have failed.
still bro-love ya imagep.

Imegap is one lovable dude although his avatar is a bit disconcerting. I love to argue with him despite him always being wrong. He's one of the members who knows how to diagree respectfully so its always a pleasure to confront him with my genius.

Bodi · Aug 8, 2013

rhinefire said:
Listening to some gangs on the radio this morning showed me there are parts of society where education does not exist. These gang members do not relate to education, only survival. 100% never think about what they want to be. All were asked the question "what do you want to be" and none answered, none. One was recovering from being shot and said he would like to clean himself up and live "a couple more years". He is 20! We drift away from what is here in parts of this country. We shake our heads when we hear of the outrageous number of shootings in Chicgo but this program explained why. These shootings are their way of life just like going to work is our way of life. Sociologists for decades talk of what is "wrong" with the cities But is it wrong or is it the way things are? This was only 30 minutes in length but ruely a oul opener. To think there are young peole with zero hope, zero belief in a future of any kind that wake up in a room with no thought of doing anything other than robbing, and killing and dying is death itself only in slow motion.

The way things are is wrong...

...we also have to remember that many people lack the certain level of intelligence required to think about their situation and attempt to solve it. And for every kid in a gang there are hundreds not in one. They seem to be able to figure it out... or were lucky enough to not be born to the wrong parents or in the wrong area...

The Part Of America Without Education

specklebang

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imagep

Villiage Idiot

imagep

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specklebang

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specklebang

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imagep

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specklebang

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ttwtt78640

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imagep

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imagep

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ttwtt78640

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specklebang

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JayGatsby

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TheGirlNextDoor

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imagep

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Mach

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Bodi

Just waiting for my set...

The Part Of America Without Education

Discount Philosopher

Villiage Idiot

Villiage Idiot

Discount Philosopher

Discount Philosopher

Villiage Idiot

Discount Philosopher

Sometimes wrong

Villiage Idiot

Villiage Idiot

Sometimes wrong

Discount Philosopher

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Member

Si vis pacem, para bellum

Villiage Idiot

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Just waiting for my set...

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